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Thread: Installing third brake light in the rear?

  1. #1
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    Installing third brake light in the rear?

    My '97 has the factory installed spoiler with the integrated third brake light. I have been considering ltw/gtii spoilers that do not have the third brake light -- so am looking into installing my own at the bottom of my rear windshield.

    According to these random instructions I've found, it looks really straight forward, minus that random harness they have (I can't seem to find it). I took my rear deck panel out to look, and verified that the mounting holes for the OEM third brake light are there (at least I think they're there), just no brake light. I also verified their wiring for cars with the check control module (like mine) is exactly how mine is currently set up (once again, just minus the third brake light/harness).

    My question is, if I source an OEM rear brake light (#1, PN 63258363491), can't I just pull the existing wiring for the spoiler's integrated brake light back through the trunk lid and just use that for the wiring? I can replace the existing connector with what appears to be the correct one needed for the third brake light (#5, PN 61131378416), and will obviously need to buy the bulb, socket, mounting hardware, (and double sided tape?), and to cut the hole out of my rear deck to accept the brake light. My goal is to have a completely factory looking third brake light, that functions correctly with the check control module. I've also read that the rear windshield itself is different, but I think this shouldn't matter.

    I've been having trouble googling this, everyone seems to want to remove their third light, not install one xD. If anyone has done this or has some insights into this project please let me know! And if there are really big reasons to NOT install the third brake light that I don't know of, I guess add that too, although it seems like in every situation it is beneficial to have it.

    Thanks



    (PS/off topic... I've been holding off on the spoiler for two reasons. One, figuring out how to do it, but the second is because I've been waiting for the MM splitter to come back in stock. Does anyone have an ETA on these? Are they still making them? I've maybe sent three emails over the past 6 months with no replies, so if anyone knows anything about, or is selling one, let me know. I already have the under panel and have been running that for a while now, love it. I just want that splitter now).
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    I did this last year while building my daughter’s car. I pulled the wiring back through and soldered into the OEM wiring from a used brake light.

    The back deck piece is completely different and has a vent for the heat from the incandescent bulb - I had to source one from a coupe with no spoiler.

    The rear windshield is different - the correct one has a black border around the lens that obscures the gap between the deck and the light. Not terrible, but it’s on my list to replace if I come across a reasonably priced rear windshield.

    Hope this helps!

    Ryan




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  3. #3
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    Ok, a couple of things.

    to do this properly, you need a rear window with a cmhsl, and the package Trey, and the cmhsl housing. Yes, you probably can take the existing wire from the spoiler and route it to the cmhsl. You might also need the bulb holder for the cmhsl.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Beat me to it. Lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan86 View Post
    I did this last year while building my daughter’s car. I pulled the wiring back through and soldered into the OEM wiring from a used brake light.

    The back deck piece is completely different and has a vent for the heat from the incandescent bulb - I had to source one from a coupe with no spoiler.

    The rear windshield is different - the correct one has a black border around the lens that obscures the gap between the deck and the light. Not terrible, but it’s on my list to replace if I come across a reasonably priced rear windshield.

    Hope this helps!

    Ryan


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    This helps a lot. Good to know about the rear panel having those vents, I will keep a lookout for a rear panel. And I see what you mean about the rear windshield having the black border, thank you for taking a picture!


    Quote Originally Posted by RRSperry View Post
    Ok, a couple of things.

    to do this properly, you need a rear window with a cmhsl, and the package Trey, and the cmhsl housing. Yes, you probably can take the existing wire from the spoiler and route it to the cmhsl. You might also need the bulb holder for the cmhsl.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Beat me to it. Lol
    And as always thank you for info too. Taught me a new acronym today
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    Ok, my bad.. it’s actually a Center High Mount Stop Light CHMSL... not a cmhsl... lol dang acronyms .
    No matter where you go, there you are...

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    First off, UGH. Those of us with third brake lights and wings, do not want them. Please don't put one in.

    Second. Both the "LTW" and the GTII wings are versions WITH a light bar in the base. The GT and the 318is/4 (sedan only) are the only versions without a light bar.

    The wing included with the Lightweight started off as a GT wing that BMW contracted PTG to add a third brake light into so the factory equipped spoiler car would pass DOT. The light was literally cut and siliconed into the base; thus making it an "LTW". There are only 125 real lightweight wings and all of them were optional purchases for Lightweight owners. All Lightweight wings are GT wings. Only ~125 GT wings are Lightweight wings.

    The GTII wing is properly known as the Clubsport, but the name GTII came from the EVO Individual and either works. This is a BMW designed wing with integrated third brake light. It also saw changes to the base styling, mounting flush with the trunk edge where the GT hung off the trunk.

    You're probably confusing GTII with Class II. All of the wings mentioned are Class II. As the name suggest, it's a classification that all of them fit in. Class II does not define any one wing.

    All of the wings use the same exact top.
    All of the wings use the same exact riser pair.
    Risers do NOT make a GT wing into a LTW wing. They are purely an optional element to raise the wing higher and change the angle of attack. (I've seen people say this)

    I have acquired every OEM BMW wing and will be doing a post documenting each version soon.

    To recap, there are five OEM Wings
    -318is/4 - Sedan Only - Without the sticker indent on the base (only very early versions have this missing)
    -318is/4 - Sedan Only - With the sticker indent on the base
    -GT - Coupe Only - Without light bar, hangs off trunk (sticker indent)
    -GT2/Clubsport - Coupe Only - With light bar, sits flush with edge of trunk (sticker indent)
    -"LTW" - Coupe Only - Started life out as a GT and only became a Lightweight by PTG modifying the base for a light bar (sticker indent)
    Last edited by Braymond141; 05-07-2019 at 01:52 AM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    First off, UGH. Those of us with third brake lights and wings, do not want them. Please don't put one in.

    Second. Both the "LTW" and the GTII wings are versions WITH a light bar in the base. The GT and the 318is/4 (sedan only) are the only versions without a light bar.
    You don't want them because of cosmetics? Or because of something else? I was looking at it more from a safety and compliance perspective more than anything.

    And I didn't know the LTW/GT differentiation, but that makes sense. So I should clarify, I am interested in a GT or GTII style wing (eg Mashaw) which does not have the OEM third brake light like the true LTW does. Which is why I'm looking into how to do that. Thanks for the info to clear that up.
    Last edited by Carpy2; 05-07-2019 at 03:27 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carpy2 View Post
    You don't want them because of cosmetics? Or because of something else? I was looking at it more from a safety and compliance perspective more than anything.

    And I didn't know the LTW/GT differentiation, but that makes sense. So I should clarify, I am interested in a GT or GTII style wing (eg Mashaw) which does not have the OEM third brake light like the true LTW does. Which is why I'm looking into how to do that. Thanks for the info to clear that up.
    Mashaw does not sell a GT2 wing, and again, those are a BMW designed wing with a brake light. MaShaw sells a GT wing that continually call a Lightweight because everyone calls everything “LTW”.

    Obviously a third brake light is needed. I guess what I’m saying is, spend more on a Genuine BMW Clubsport (GT2) or modify the GT in the same way PTG did for the Lightweight.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by RRSperry View Post
    Ok, my bad.. it’s actually a Center High Mount Stop Light CHMSL... not a cmhsl... lol dang acronyms .
    Not to worry: unless CHMSL is pronounced as a word — good luck with that! — it's not an acronym, just an abbreviation or initialism.

    Neil

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    Mashaw does not sell a GT2 wing, and again, those are a BMW designed wing with a brake light. MaShaw sells a GT wing that continually call a Lightweight because everyone calls everything “LTW”.

    Obviously a third brake light is needed. I guess what I’m saying is, spend more on a Genuine BMW Clubsport (GT2) or modify the GT in the same way PTG did for the Lightweight.
    I see what you mean, I'm in the category of people who incorrectly call all the "GT style" wings "LTW"

    I was planning on avoiding OEM options strictly because of price and availability, but would love to have the real thing. I had not thought of trying to modify a GT wing to accept the third brake light -- if this is possible then it may be the easiest since I may be able to just retrofit my existing third brake light on my spoiler into the GT wing (easier said than done I bet, I haven't looked into doing this yet). I'll do some googling and see what modifying the GT wing may entail, thanks for the idea.
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    I have helped a couple people modify their wing bases for the brake light. One was a Bulgarian replica and the other was a Lister/Abaraham rep. Your factory arched spoiler light bar will work... but because it is arched, your bar has taken on that shape for the past 22 years.

    This is the lister done exactly like PTG did.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BrIikHSn..._web_copy_link

    Bulgarian replica molded in.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq-Cv9lA..._web_copy_link

  12. #12
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    I forgot about Randy. He’s one of the ex PTG carbon guys that still makes parts. Here is his all carbon molded in light bar GT wing. Randy is at Precision Glass and Composites in Dawsonville, GA. You have to call him, no internet based ordering.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    I have helped a couple people modify their wing bases for the brake light. One was a Bulgarian replica and the other was a Lister/Abaraham rep. Your factory arched spoiler light bar will work... but because it is arched, your bar has taken on that shape for the past 22 years.

    This is the lister done exactly like PTG did.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/BrIikHSn..._web_copy_link

    Bulgarian replica molded in.
    https://www.instagram.com/p/Bq-Cv9lA..._web_copy_link

    Oh very nice, those look great! As someone who hasn't seen a true LTW spoiler in person, I can't tell the difference... Looks great to me!

    I went and unscrewed my light bar to take a look, and you're right, it has a slight bend to it. Brand new ones seem to be under $100 so not the end of the world if I can't find a nice and straight used one. Now I just need the confidence to cut into a GT wing xD.

    I grabbed this photo from the "Definitive E36 LTW Spoiler Thread" which shows how the PTG team originally mounted the lights into the wings, which I believe is what you were describing.
    s4xm3a.png
    I think I can replicate this, as long as the base of the wing is thick enough to accept the light bar (I know the MaShaw and Abraham/Lester wings will work). I can only assume there are some less expensive reps out there where the base may not be thick/tall enough. Since I really don't want any sag it looks like MaShaw and Abraham/Lester are the best options overall anyways, third brake light or not. Although, Propcar recently found an interesting eBay rep that looks pretty dang good!

    I'm still really glad to know this is an option, and am heavily considering it. Thanks for the insight.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    I forgot about Randy. He’s one of the ex PTG carbon guys that still makes parts. Here is his all carbon molded in light bar GT wing. Randy is at Precision Glass and Composites in Dawsonville, GA. You have to call him, no internet based ordering.

    That's beautiful...
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    Whats the purpose of relocating the 3rd brake light behind the rear windshield when mounting a spoiler obscures it anyway?

    I remember those cars that came with the low arch spoilers from the dealer still required a brake light because you couldn’t really see the one in the rear windshield. And if you did see it, the car looked funky for having two brake lights.

    Much prefer the brake light integrated into the spoiler as it is more subtle

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    This is pretty apropos for me, as I plan on running a spare trunk to support a large wing for track use. That would mean I need a CHMSL for street use as my OEM spoiler with integrated light would be on the original trunk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmwstephen View Post
    Whats the purpose of relocating the 3rd brake light behind the rear windshield when mounting a spoiler obscures it anyway?

    I remember those cars that came with the low arch spoilers from the dealer still required a brake light because you couldn’t really see the one in the rear windshield. And if you did see it, the car looked funky for having two brake lights.

    Much prefer the brake light integrated into the spoiler as it is more subtle
    The GT and LTW wing with their risers don't block the third brake light behind the windshield, assuming it's bottom mounted. You are correct that the low rise will block it a bit though, which is why, as you mentioned, my factory installed low rise wing has an integrated third brake light and no brake light behind the rear windshield. Also if I understood Braymond correctly, if your car has the low arch with integrated light, and a third brake light behind the windshield, then that was dealer installed onto a car that originally did not have a wing (they purchased the wing as an option after the fact). Mine was factory installed however, so from the beginning it was meant to have the low arch with integrated light, so my car never had a third brake light behind the windshield installed.

    I agree with the looks though, if I'm going to go with a GT style wing, I'm going to integrate the brake light into it like they did with the LTW versions. If you go with a big track wing like a Brooks wing however, there is no way to integrate a third brake light into the spoiler itself, so you have to go with the rear windshield mounted third brake light. Once again it will be perfectly visible because of how high the Brooks wing sits.
    Last edited by Carpy2; 05-14-2019 at 12:15 AM.
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    Hey guys I am currently building a PTG car. Randy has done my carbon for me. Does anyone know the PN for the GT2 wing third brake light? Here is a picture of my wing. IMG_6416 2.JPG
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    Oh wow, that was you who had it commissioned, Congrats! Nice to see you still around. I've been to their workshop and seen and held those wings in person as they're

    Maybe Braymond can chime in on the 3rd brake light. I do however think it's a bit unusual that the PTG race wing would have the GT2 base, as it's a race car it wouldn't have needed 3rd brake light and I believe they all used the GT base. But I don't think Randy has the GT base... which is kind of ironic since back in the day PTG had to cut out the original GT wings to fit 3rd brake lights. And now they only make replicas of the GT base.

    If it's going to be left black or raw carbon, maybe worth considering not installing the 3rd brake light, or maybe just put a red-reflective tape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by propcar View Post
    Oh wow, that was you who had it commissioned, Congrats! Nice to see you still around. I've been to their workshop and seen and held those wings in person as they're

    Maybe Braymond can chime in on the 3rd brake light. I do however think it's a bit unusual that the PTG race wing would have the GT2 base, as it's a race car it wouldn't have needed 3rd brake light and I believe they all used the GT base. But I don't think Randy has the GT base... which is kind of ironic since back in the day PTG had to cut out the original GT wings to fit 3rd brake lights. And now they only make replicas of the GT base.

    If it's going to be left black or raw carbon, maybe worth considering not installing the 3rd brake light, or maybe just put a red-reflective tape.
    The PTG wing does not use a GT2 base. For Randy's version; It's a GT base replica with the additional cosmetic treatment to look like the light bar is a factory molded in part. It was also a design PTG played with before settling on cutting in the third brake light into the GT wings for the LTW (per Randy's son).

    The light bar is the same for all spoilers, Lightweight and the Clubsport/GT2 wing. 63252489862

    You will need to make a custom harness for it as BMW no longer sells it. The connectors aren't too hard to find. The light bar side is a VW part.
    Last edited by Braymond141; 02-01-2021 at 01:52 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by propcar View Post
    Oh wow, that was you who had it commissioned, Congrats! Nice to see you still around. I've been to their workshop and seen and held those wings in person as they're

    Maybe Braymond can chime in on the 3rd brake light. I do however think it's a bit unusual that the PTG race wing would have the GT2 base, as it's a race car it wouldn't have needed 3rd brake light and I believe they all used the GT base. But I don't think Randy has the GT base... which is kind of ironic since back in the day PTG had to cut out the original GT wings to fit 3rd brake lights. And now they only make replicas of the GT base.

    If it's going to be left black or raw carbon, maybe worth considering not installing the 3rd brake light, or maybe just put a red-reflective tape.
    Haha yeah thanks! I am still around lurking. The wing exterior will be painted body color with the exception of the flap. everything on inside will be left carbon.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Braymond141 View Post
    The PTG wing does not use a GT2 base. For Randy's version; It's a GT base replica with the additional cosmetic treatment to look like the light bar is a factory molded in part. It was also a design PTG played with before settling on cutting in the third brake light into the GT wings for the LTW (per Randy's son).

    The light bar is the same for all spoilers, Lightweight and the Clubsport/GT2 wing. 63252489862

    You will need to make a custom harness for it as BMW no longer sells it. The connectors aren't too hard to find. The light bar side is a VW part.
    Thank you for the info the custom harness is no problem. Would you happen to know the PN for the VW connector?

    Thank you guys for all of your help. I haven’t been around but I’ve been around if that makes sense lol.

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