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Thread: S54 oil temp on track

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    S54 oil temp on track

    My track car has the s54 engine. I recently added a 3.64 dif and now spend a bit more time at higher rpm's. I have a cheap mechanical oil temp gauge that only reads to 280. I am now off the gauge but if I short shift or as soon as I get the flag the temp drops quickly telling me that I am not that far north of 280. I was told by some M3 guys that 300 was not that crazy and do realize that where I read from makes a difference in the number. I like the pan read on the e46 versus the housing read of the e36 because I want to see the highest number I can. Guys tracking the e46 M3. What are you seeing and in what ambient temps?
    Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by MauiM3Mania View Post
    Whats your oil cooler set up?
    I run the Bimmer World diverter so all the oil goes through the cooler. Running an 11x11 plate style cooler in front of my radiator.

    oil cooler2.jpg
    Last edited by Cobra1956; 04-29-2019 at 07:01 PM.
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    S54 swap in E36. Bimmerworld C&R oil cooler. Redline 50WT. Highest temp I’ve ever seen is 250, measured in the pan.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m3bs View Post
    S54 swap in E36. Bimmerworld C&R oil cooler. Redline 50WT. Highest temp I’ve ever seen is 250, measured in the pan.
    What rear end?
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    3.64 behind stock E36 5-speed.
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    Same here. Are us using stock BMW gauges or aftermarket? Stock e46 oil sender in the pan? You are running substantially cooler than any e46 I know. You are definitely on to something. Might be your cooler but I have a hard time believing an s54 reading that low at the pan. Will check out that cooler.
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    SPA gauge and sending unit in the pan. I questioned it myself, so I tested the gauge in boiling water at about 210, so it’s close at at least ambient and at 210. I also have the big C&R radiator which may help as well. Water temps typically 175-180. It must be our cool ambient temps down here in August......NOT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by m3bs View Post
    SPA gauge and sending unit in the pan. I questioned it myself, so I tested the gauge in boiling water at about 210, so it’s close at at least ambient and at 210. I also have the big C&R radiator which may help as well. Water temps typically 175-180. It must be our cool ambient temps down here in August......NOT!
    Must be the cooler then. For coolant I run hotter but I have my sensor in the block so It should be higher. Friday at CMP I was around 220 on the coolant side and my oil temp was pegged but the gauge only goes to 280. Since the stock BMW e46 gauge read to 300 I did not think too much of it but thought I should be sure. Reached out to Krista Williams for some of her data and she told me she saw 300 at the pan and 260 to 270 at the housing. This made sense to me as the oil squirters should give us higher oil temps and others claim that high viscosity runs hotter also. I am running AMSOIL 20/50 rod in my car. Have a higher temp gauge on the way and am going to look into that cooler or a Setrab. Will test my gauge when I pull it but my numbers are just so far off from what you get it gives me cause for concern. Thanks for all the info!
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    Working on this this week. Ordered a series One Setrab 60 row cooler. They have a pretty nice spread sheet on their site showing the btus and h/p the specific coolers are rated for. This is supposed to be for 325 to 425 so it should work. Pulled the old cooler off the car.IMG_2463[1].jpg Interesting that my new cooler will actually have less surface area at 121 sq inch versus 116.67 so this should be interesting.IMG_2465[1].jpg
    IMG_2466[1].jpg
    One issue I did find is that the cooler has 8 an fittings versus 10 that the new will have. My thought is that less restriction will be nice but that should also allow oil to flow through the cooler faster....making it less effective? Hopefully the quality of the cooler is better for heat transfer. This made me head back out to the old cooler and measure the depth which came in at 1.5 inches versus the Setrab at 1.875. So if I multiple that out in a less than scientific approach came up with 181.5 old versus 218.75 sq inches of cooling area so maybe no worries. Oil cooler held about a cup of oil.
    IMG_2464[1].jpg

    Sorry for the sideways shots. Too stupid to know how to fix this. More to come when the cooler arrives Friday
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    People often hang the oil cooler in front of the radiator in hopes of air flowing through it but unless you have a pressure differential across it no air will flow through it. It will take the path of least resistance around it. For best results high pressure air needs to be ducted in to it and out of it to an area of low pressure.

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    I recommend hood venting to assist and as big a radiator as possible. With no ducting and a simple Ebay style oil cooler/knockoff xline radiator, cooling issues are a thing of the past. Water/water wetter helps keep the cooling temps down as well just make sure there is ZERO coolant in the system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olemiss540 View Post
    I recommend hood venting to assist and as big a radiator as possible. With no ducting and a simple Ebay style oil cooler/knockoff xline radiator, cooling issues are a thing of the past. Water/water wetter helps keep the cooling temps down as well just make sure there is ZERO coolant in the system.

    Will this help? Have had this for a few years.

    track car.jpg
    ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
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    Quote Originally Posted by chikinhed View Post
    People often hang the oil cooler in front of the radiator in hopes of air flowing through it but unless you have a pressure differential across it no air will flow through it. It will take the path of least resistance around it. For best results high pressure air needs to be ducted in to it and out of it to an area of low pressure.
    Post 3 covers it. Here is a better look.
    ductwork.jpg

    ductwork2.jpg

    I don't think this is a pressure issue as much as it is a heat dissipation due to high rpm. I just plumbed in the new Setrab and I will put a cover over the top of the inner bumper support to prevent air from getting around it if that indeed is any of the issue. When I did my research I found that you do not need much air across the heat exchange to get adequate cooling as it was based on the change in cooling. Also when most address this they think in terms of what we are comfortable and not the car which is around 200 degrees. I have had much bigger HP cars with no heat issue but I was always amazed at how much heat the s54 puts out. A side of me says this is good as it has to go somewhere. High viscosity supposedly contributes as do the oil squirters, I'm sure. Simple side of me would point out that the stock M3 came with an oil temp gauge that reads to 300 (reads @200 at daily use, different car)and none of that is highlighted in red. Also not saying I want to be there either. My fans are hardwired and unless we are doing student drills I never turn them on. Also, I believe the cooler set up was working because as soon as the session ends the oil temp drops by @ 20 degrees in the first half cool down lap. Changes there would be less pressure on the cooling system but more importantly much less btu's being produced.
    I will post some pictures of what I have. Keep the ideas coming as I am not ruling anything out and I did have one racer say they measure at pan and at the block and see similar to what I am getting.
    ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
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    Mocked up the cooler yesterday morning. It is mounted to the old condenser bracket. It was about even with the top of the bumper and after a few or your comments I decided to move it as low as I could get it. Final location is about an inch lower. Top:
    072.jpg

    And the bottom looking thought the lower grill opening. In this shot you can see the ducting to seal off the bottom of the radiator also:
    073.jpg

    I wanted to try to force more air through the oil cooler so I grabbed a bit of cardboard and fabricated something up. Cardboard is nice because you can score it and shape it fairly easily. Was going to paint it with epoxy resin but forgot I got rid of all my stuff years back so I did a bit of research to see what the ignition temp of cardboard was and it was much higher that the temps will be there so I coated it with some real duct tape for moister protection and came up with this.
    074.jpg080.jpg 083.jpg
    The plan was to tape this to the top of the cooler and hold the front in with the nose piece. All subject to a little change now the the cooler is lower. I use push lock hoses so they were a bit stiff and highlighted that they will get replaced sometime in the near future as part of preventative maintenance. Had to drill a new hole in the side shroud and weave the top hose around the bumper support after I had it all done on e and then remembered that I have the nose off and the hose location would prevent you from taking the nose off without removing the oil lines. Bad plan! So I wrestled with getting the hose to do some bending it did not want to do and left it overnight routed but not secured to help convince it that this was the new location of choice. Hook right up this morning. More to come.
    ME:"I want to make my car faster and lighter"
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    Almost finished. If I use some type of duct work I need to be able to get at the cooler as easily as possible so I decided to lose the plastic mesh and replace it with 1/4 inch mesh that will be mounted from the outside. Old plastic revealed a dinger already so now that I doubled my car's value by adding a Setrab I thought I should protect it better. Cut the mesh so I could fold back an inch on all sides so fingers are saved in the event of necessary track side surgery. No leaks so far and interested to see if this does anything or if I am trying to solve a problem that does not exist.
    084.jpg 085.jpg
    Hope this works as I have three days at Summit Point this coming week.
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    Quote Originally Posted by m3bs View Post
    S54 swap in E36. Bimmerworld C&R oil cooler. Redline 50WT. Highest temp I’ve ever seen is 250, measured in the pan.
    E36 or E46 C&R cooler?

    I was running custom ducting, the diverter, the E36 C&R radiator/oil cooler combo, and Redline 15w50 on my S54, and was routinely getting 270-280F temps measured at the housing (sensor measuring in the flow of oil cooler exit). Pan temps up to 310 on occasion in <100F ambient temps (per canbus data)

    Needless to say....was not impressed or satisfied with that, as I'd have to putz around after 3-4 hot laps, so have changed to a bigger oil cooler.

    Water temp was solid at 185-195. Oil was just off the charts, no matter what I did (retune, change oil weight, add diverter, add ducting, etc)

    I have not been back to the track yet, but have replaced the C&R cooler with the bigger Zionsville unit this past weekend. Hoping that'll make a difference.
    Last edited by Bimmerman535i; 05-08-2019 at 06:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmerman535i View Post
    E36 or E46 C&R cooler?

    I was running custom ducting, the diverter, the E36 C&R radiator/oil cooler combo, and Redline 15w50 on my S54, and was routinely getting 270-280F temps measured at the housing (sensor measuring in the flow of oil cooler exit). Pan temps up to 310 on occasion in <100F ambient temps (per canbus data)

    Needless to say....was not impressed or satisfied with that, as I'd have to putz around after 3-4 hot laps, so have changed to a bigger oil cooler.

    Water temp was solid at 185-195. Oil was just off the charts, no matter what I did (retune, change oil weight, add diverter, add ducting, etc)

    I have not been back to the track yet, but have replaced the C&R cooler with the bigger Zionsville unit this past weekend. Hoping that'll make a difference.
    I run the Zionsville Super Comp setup (radiator and big ass oil cooler) and still have issues (S54 in E36). Last weekend with ~95 ambient I saw 223 water temp (measured at the aluminum water pipe on the head) and 265 oil temp (measured at the housing), after just 3 hot laps.

    I'm installing the oil diverter, 55C thermostat and ducting in the next few weeks to see if it helps. I also have the hood vented. The oil temp doesn't bug me (although I'd like to see ~240) as much as the water temp does. I'd really like to see ~200-210 if possible while flogging it lol.

    Any pics of your ducting? I'm looking for ideas lol.
    Last edited by MPWRCPE; 05-08-2019 at 06:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPWRCPE View Post
    I run the Zionsville Super Comp setup (radiator and big ass oil cooler) and still have issues (S54 in E36). Last weekend with ~95 ambient I saw 223 water temp (measured at the aluminum water pipe on the head) and 265 oil temp (measured at the housing), after just 3 hot laps.

    I'm installing the oil diverter, 55C thermostat and ducting in the next few weeks to see if it helps. I also have the hood vented. The oil temp doesn't bug me (although I'd like to see ~240) as much as the water temp does. I'd really like to see ~200-210 if possible while flogging it lol.

    Any pics of your ducting? I'm looking for ideas lol.

    I would skip the thermostat personally-- within a lap you'd have the stock thermostat wide open anyway assuming you start from cold, and above that your thermostat is doing squat. I switched to the stock Z3M S54 radiator so I'm guessing my water temp is going to go up from the C&R baseline (it leaked, otherwise would keep). Do you have the Zionsville fan shroud plate thing on the rad? Probably can take that off and lower your temps for free, as that's a massive airflow restriction. I'm measuring water temp at the same spot, both with the factory/canbus data logger and my auxiliary gauge.

    Ducting...apparently I haven't posted it in the build thread, thought I had. See attached! It's basic sheet metal and speed tape sealing the rad+cooler to the bumper directly. At one point I was using the Euro M3 oil cooler duct to separate air to the cooler itself, but didn't notice any difference between that and this simpler setup. I don't have hood venting or any post-coolers ducting...but that's a next step. The ducting could be made better, no contest. I'm not blessed with fabrication skills.

    On oil temp... I was changing it every three events and getting Blackstone analysis done on it, with an eye to monitoring breakdown. Their response, every time, was essentially "send it, oil's fine", so the oil temps I'm seeing apparently are fine.....but I don't want to tempt fate and would rather run lower temps.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Bimmerman535i; 05-08-2019 at 07:20 PM.
    "Fear disturbs your concentration" -Sabine Schmit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmerman535i View Post
    I would skip the thermostat personally-- within a lap you'd have the stock thermostat wide open anyway assuming you start from cold, and above that your thermostat is doing squat. I switched to the stock Z3M S54 radiator so I'm guessing my water temp is going to go up from the C&R baseline (it leaked, otherwise would keep). Do you have the Zionsville fan shroud plate thing on the rad? Probably can take that off and lower your temps for free, as that's a massive airflow restriction. I'm measuring water temp at the same spot, both with the factory/canbus data logger and my auxiliary gauge.

    Ducting...apparently I haven't posted it in the build thread, thought I had. See attached! It's basic sheet metal and speed tape sealing the rad+cooler to the bumper directly. At one point I was using the Euro M3 oil cooler duct to separate air to the cooler itself, but didn't notice any difference between that and this simpler setup. I don't have hood venting or any post-coolers ducting...but that's a next step. The ducting could be made better, no contest. I'm not blessed with fabrication skills.

    On oil temp... I was changing it every three events and getting Blackstone analysis done on it, with an eye to monitoring breakdown. Their response, every time, was essentially "send it, oil's fine", so the oil temps I'm seeing apparently are fine.....but I don't want to tempt fate and would rather run lower temps.
    I like the pictures of your ductwork. The question I have is air flow. The cooler is stock form sit below the lip of the bumper cover. If the airflow is diverted up over the lip what sends it back down to the cooler? Always wondered about that. Curious to see what I get this weekend.
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    As a side note Sneed Speed did some nice vids on an e36 and e46 in the wind tunnel. You can find them on Youtube and it give you something to ponder when it comes to airflow. I have also been sent video of air flow under the hood but that was proprietary but very interesting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmerman535i View Post
    I would skip the thermostat personally-- within a lap you'd have the stock thermostat wide open anyway assuming you start from cold, and above that your thermostat is doing squat. I switched to the stock Z3M S54 radiator so I'm guessing my water temp is going to go up from the C&R baseline (it leaked, otherwise would keep). Do you have the Zionsville fan shroud plate thing on the rad? Probably can take that off and lower your temps for free, as that's a massive airflow restriction. I'm measuring water temp at the same spot, both with the factory/canbus data logger and my auxiliary gauge.

    Ducting...apparently I haven't posted it in the build thread, thought I had. See attached! It's basic sheet metal and speed tape sealing the rad+cooler to the bumper directly. At one point I was using the Euro M3 oil cooler duct to separate air to the cooler itself, but didn't notice any difference between that and this simpler setup. I don't have hood venting or any post-coolers ducting...but that's a next step. The ducting could be made better, no contest. I'm not blessed with fabrication skills.

    On oil temp... I was changing it every three events and getting Blackstone analysis done on it, with an eye to monitoring breakdown. Their response, every time, was essentially "send it, oil's fine", so the oil temps I'm seeing apparently are fine.....but I don't want to tempt fate and would rather run lower temps.
    Good point on the shroud, do you have any pics of your fan mounting? I was going to gut the shroud leaving only enough material to hold the fan to the radiator.
    Dave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bimmerman535i View Post
    E36 or E46 C&R cooler?
    E36. Saw max of 238 at Roebling on Sunday. Water 180.
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  24. #24
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    I think it's been pretty well established for years that the stock E36 Euro and E46 oil coolers, both of which are mounted in what you'd think should be a pretty good location below the coolant radiator, are adequate for street use but not wonderful for track duty. I don't know if this is because the airflow there isn't as good as it might appear to be, or the construction of the stock oil radiators themselves, or what. I'm also pretty sure that, unless one's name is Adrian Newey, an intuitive approach to fluid dynamics/airflow is most likely to be wrong.

    My E36 has the stock engine, only slightly breathed-on with Schrick cams and the usual intake/exhaust stuff, so I'm not burdened with the extra thermal load of the S54 and all its horsepower (dammit). However when I installed a 76mm core PWR radiator many years ago there was a 10-ish ˚F drop in oil temp on track (I don't measure coolant temps). Later on the installation of an oil cooler dropped oil temps by an additional, similar amount.

    This oil cooler is a 13-row Mocal mounted behind the lower grille, ahead of the main rad (actually ahead of the aux electric fan/shroud, the A/C condenser and then the main rad), plumbed to a Euro/S54 filter housing. Intuitively this location doesn't seem like a good approach, since heat from the oil cooler is being rejected into the airflow to the coolant rad, but the fact is that this is a common practice that everyone knows works. For a pure track/race car, which mine isn't, without the A/C stuff it'll work better. It's also nicely scalable in that if you're not getting enough oil cooling, there's room to upsize its rad.

    DSC00266-(Small).jpg

    There's one other benefit to not hanging the oil cooler below the coolant rad. I've twice witnessed those coolers torn off cars in what should otherwise have been fairly harmless off-track excursions.

    Lastly, it seems necessary to again point out that a lower temp t'stat does nothing at all to increase the thermal capacity of the cooling system. Coolant flow through the radiator will be initiated sooner and terminated later, but if the system's cooling capacity is inadequate for the job it will remain inadequate for the job.

    Neil

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilM View Post
    Lastly, it seems necessary to again point out that a lower temp t'stat does nothing at all to increase the thermal capacity of the cooling system. Coolant flow through the radiator will be initiated sooner and terminated later, but if the system's cooling capacity is inadequate for the job it will remain inadequate for the job.

    Neil
    Yeah I'm going to skip the thermostat (thanks guys) and just do the oil diverter. I'm ducting everything now and removing the shroud, hopefully this will all add up to a cooler car. Gotta get my cooling sorted before I start W2W next season!
    Dave
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