Another bleeding story of woe

[pjo33us]

Hi Guys:

This is actually a specific question so bear with me...

1996 M3... I have replaced the cooling system completely.  Well, everything except the hard pipe and the heater core.While doing this, I thought it was a brilliant idea to use the Turtle Industries expansion tank bracket to get rid of my fan shroud and relocate the E-tank to the drivers side of the radiator. I do not think I would recommend this to others as it 1. gets in the way of the alternator cooling duct and 2. creates a bend in the lower E tank line (from the hard pipe) which I suspect is holding an air bubble and makes the car more difficult to bleed.

So onto the bleeding... I have bled an E36 before.I have never had to do anything other than the Bentley method. I have never had to start the car and run it to bleed it. So that is what I started with. I have since tried the understeer method as well. So anyway here is what is going on

- I am getting heat consistently, at idle or at speed.
- Car is not overheating
- Coolant is clean and blue like it should be.
- The coolant level rises immediately when I remove the radiator cap. It dos not overflow though.
- The coolant level subsequently drops and I get a bubbling sound when I lift the E-tank from the Turtle Industries cradle.
- Lifting the E-tank makes it the highest point in the system, and the theory goes, should make it self-bleed.
- I have tried lifting the tank and opening the bleed screw to let excess air out as well and nothing happens.

So what do you guys think, do I have an air bubble in the system since my level rises when I remove the cap or what? Next stop is to take it to BMW and have them use their flush vacuum thing to purge it.

[pjo33us]

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[bluptgm3]

Not sure why you did this!!! LOL!!

https://turtlelaboratories.com/colle...delete-mod-fdm


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[pjo33us]

Because its bad ass...and I was looking for a clean way to delete the fan shroud without putting in the mishimoto unit. If I can't get this right, that's what I will do next.

[Eric93se]

Raise the tank and let it fully warm up with the bleed screw out till water squirts inside the bleed screw hole.

[pbonsalb]

I have used the Euro tank and pipe for over 10 years and think it’s the best.

[pjo33us]

Alright so I am still struggling with the cooling system on this thing... I had to replace the new aluminum T-stat housing because it leaked. It actually some how blew out the the orange gasket, anf leaked. Replaced it with a FEBI OE plastic one. When I did this, I put a Mishimoto 68d C "racing" thermostat in the car. Not sure if this is going to be my problem or not...

You will also note that I have a brass bleeder screw that may have been tightened one too many times. Nothing is leaking out of it as far as I can tell and there is no hissing or anything when the car is warmed up.

Anyway, after putting it all back together... bleeding it every which way but loose, I am getting a few symptoms that are baffling me:

- In the car, the temp gauge warms all the way to vertical when I start the car and let it idle for a while, than backs down once I drive the car. If I sit still and idle it goes back up but never dead center. Acts like a bad t-stat.
- The BMW blue in the expansion tank never really expands. It sits there and I guess still rises a little if I remove the cap. If I crack the bleeder while hot, coolant comes out rapidly.
- If I remove the cap while hot I do get some pressure release and the coolant expands a little bit.

So what do you guys think? Still have air in the system or bad (new) thermostat? OR something else (I know somebody will chime in and tell me I have a bad headgasket and should part the car out...)

[bluptgm3]

Your thermostat is to cold of temperature range, your engine is not reaching operational temperature. You most likely will run rich, have incomplete combustion and experience an accelerated wear.
Typical street car thermostat temps are 88C and 92C.


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[jmo69]

Have you tried Fly's method where you squeeze the hoses? I guess I wouldn't worry about it if everything works. I try to not crack the bleeder or remove he cap when it's hot to keep air out of the system.

[pjo33us]

I think I just came to that conclusion after reading a bunch of old threads... I have always run an 80d T-stat and it still warmed up fine and seemed to create enough pressure to expand and fill the the expansion tank. I am guessing the lower temp T-stat is also not allowing enough pressure to build in the system as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Have you tried Fly's method where you squeeze the hoses? I guess I wouldn't worry about it if everything works. I try to not crack the bleeder or remove he cap when it's hot to keep air out of the system.

I think it is actually bled fine and the issue is the low temp "racing" thermostat not creating enough heat or allowing the coolant to het up enough. I get good heat in the cabin.

I think in my zeal to protect the motor from overheating, after deleting the fan, I have taken it to far with a low temp t-stat.

[jmo69]

I think it is actually bled fine and the issue is the low temp "racing" thermostat not creating enough heat or allowing the coolant to het up enough. I get good heat in the cabin.

I think in my zeal to protect the motor from overheating, after deleting the fan, I have taken it to far with a low temp t-stat.

The first stat I put in my 328 was an 82°C and I got more cabin heat than the 87°C that was in there. That one started opening at about 63°C.

[pjo33us]

The first stat I put in my 328 was an 82°C and I got more cabin heat than the 87°C that was in there. That one started opening at about 63°C.

THe one in there now is a 68d C unit... I am getting plenty of cabin heat. The car is for sure warming all the way up, it just cools once you start driving and then nver gets back up to dead center. I will switch back to an 80d unit, I think that will still get me to dead center on the rtemp gauge but still open a little earlier than the stock 88d unit. At least that is what I am going ot tell myself.

[pjo33us]

So here we go... honestly not sure why I am having so many issues with the simplest of things.

Back in to replace the low temp Tstat with an 80d FEBI unit and, sure enough, the brand new FEBI housing is cracked right along the inside of the orange gasket. It is the same spot that the gasket ripped apart and leaked on the metal housing. I will try and attach some pictures. Why would this thing crack there?

I believe I will be going to the dealer tomorrow and buying a OEM housing, t-stat, both gaskets and even new bolts...

- - - Updated - - -

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Not sure if you guys can see where the crack is... look on the right side of the opening where the orange gasket goes. You can kind of see the inside of the groove is a little bowed in.
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I have no idea how this happens unless the gasket was just not seated correctly.

[bluptgm3]

Give us a clear up close picture of your front cover.

Should not need additional sealant.
The orange ‘thingie’ seals the outlet port and the thermostat O-Ring seals the inlet ‘bell’.

Clean all the sealant off the T-Stat ‘manifold’ and the front cover.
Get an OE orange rubber ‘thingie’ gasket and reinstall the alloy housing, taking care to install all the fasteners finger tight before seating/torquing them.

The OE Thermostat temperature for a 328 2.8L is 92C. The 1996+M3 3.2L thermostat is 88C.


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[pjo33us]

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Can you guys see the light shining thru in the first picture? It looks like a defective unit honestly. It is brand new and did not leak or anything... I happend to notice the crack when I just went and pulled it off to swap an 80d in for the 68d thermostat. I used a very light coating of high temp grease, the green stuff is what comes on the housing in place of the old paper gasket BMW used to use. So do I mess around with the aluminum one again or just go buy an OEM plastic one?

[pjo33us]

Give us a clear up close picture of your front cover.

Should not need additional sealant.
The orange ‘thingie’ seals the outlet port and the thermostat O-Ring seals the ‘bell’.

Clean all the sealant off the T-Stat ‘manifold’ and the front cover.
Get an OE orange rubber ‘thingie’ gasket and reinstall the alloy housing, taking care to install all the fasteners finger tight before seating/torquing them.

The OE Thermostat temperature for a 328 2.8L is 92C. The 1996+M3 3.2L thermostat is 88C.


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So you would try again with the aluminum housing rather than OEM plastic? Just use OEM gaskets, an OEM 88d T-stat and no sealant at all?

BTW, I appreciate your help...

[bluptgm3]

Photo of your front cover first.

I recommend putting the engine driven fan back on.


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[pjo33us]

Photo of your front cover first.

I recommend putting the engine driven fan back on.


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Not sure what you are asking for... a picture of the housing you mean? I have two different ones I am working with here. There is an aluminum one and a plastic FEBI unit. Do you want a picture of the front of each? Both are brand new and both are part of a full cooling system refresh.

As for the engine driven fan... I am not putting that back on. I have had and E36 without the viscous fan for 10 years now and never had an overheat. This car already has a low temp fan switch, a Stewart pump, Z3M radiator... I will monitor coolant temps closely and will install an electric fan if the car runs hot.

[pjo33us]

Here are a 20190509_220314.jpg20190509_220335.jpg20190509_220343.jpgfew more pics

[bluptgm3]

That Front Cover (front of engine cover) looks pretty clean and smooth.
20190509_220314.jpg

You should have no problem reinstalling Thermostat Housing/Manifold, use no sealant. Orange rubber ‘thingie’ gasket seals outlet port and Thermostat O-Ring seals inlet ‘bell’ port.
Place T-Stat housing squarely on front cover, installing all fasteners finger tight prior to seating/torquing them.

Use OE gasket 11531740437 and O-ring 11531265084, with Behr, Febi, Rein or Whaler Thermostat 11537511580.
Insure the installation orientation of Thermostat is correct. Drill 1/8 inch hole thru ‘up’ arrow and install with hole at 12:00 o’clock. This aids bleeding process.

20190509_213200.jpg

I used a very light coating of high temp grease, the green stuff is what comes on the housing in place of the old paper gasket BMW used to use.

I had forgotten about the factory applied periphery sealant on OE ‘manifold’. I still don’t use any additional sealant.
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[pjo33us]

I am still going to buy a new OEM gasket and O ring tomorrow. I am also noticing that I have a couple of different gaskets and some are thicker than the others... same with the O rings.

[Eric93se]

There's no need to drill a hole, the system bleeds fine without it. Don't over torque when installing, look up the value. Only aluminum housings were known to leak because they were not flat from the factory but some are much better now, there should be no reason to use sealant. With an aluminum housing you have to use a flat surface and a feeler gauge to check that its flat. I would not buy another febi if they're having issues.

[bluptgm3]

Only aluminum housings were known to leak because they were not flat from the factory but some are much better now, there should be no reason to use sealant.

Additionally, there were porosity issues, particularly in the return inlet ‘bell’.

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[bluptgm3]

Don't over torque when installing, look up the value.

Install all the fasteners finer tight, then snug up in a cross pattern, then torque to value.


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[Fix.a.ZX]

Not sure what you are asking for... a picture of the housing you mean? I have two different ones I am working with here. There is an aluminum one and a plastic FEBI unit. Do you want a picture of the front of each? Both are brand new and both are part of a full cooling system refresh.

As for the engine driven fan... I am not putting that back on. I have had and E36 without the viscous fan for 10 years now and never had an overheat. This car already has a low temp fan switch, a Stewart pump, Z3M radiator... I will monitor coolant temps closely and will install an electric fan if the car runs hot.

oh..

You have an S54 Z3 radiator but you didn't complete the euro cooling system mod for self bleeding? Use 5/16 metal brake line and bend it with a $15 pipe bender nicely to imitate the route the euro Evo plastic Hardline takes to get to the E30 expansion tank. Imitate the Euro m3.

You use a 6X Celsius thermostat on a 2.8L 6cyl engine?
You know that engine with an open circuit (no thermostat) will remain at 72c on idle and will be around 6X Celsius when driven. This means that by putting that silly thermostat in you are running with it open all the time, that's why there's no 'expanding blue coolant' in the reservoir, not much pressure+heat to build up...

You rely on the coolant gage on your dash for temperature reading,
Bmw use hysteresis on their coolant gages so the prissy people who first bought them wouldn't freak out when they see the coolant gage rise and drop rapidly. You will never actually see a real value no matter how much you believe it. Your engine can be at 7X celcius and it'll still show you near middle instead of 1/4 way. Use the obd port with a $40 scan tool which can read "live data", almost all scan tools can now.

You can also recode the cluster using ADS interface with NCSdummy. There's a thread out there how to code your own values in for it to be realistically accurate.


I have the Z3m (euro evo m3 radiator) with the entire euro self bleeding system, I made it from the 5/16. Yes you just add coolant and it does it all for you. I have been running a 82C thermostat and no fan for about 2yrs now. Factory old pump also.

aluminum thermostat housing from E39 525i has a built in bleeding port which can double as an extra sensor port btw.

That's an old picture but you get the idea.

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