Buying cream puff E38 is typically a BAD IDEA

[Mayorchuck]

[Chamberlin]

Just bought a cream puff 740i Sport and I'm loving it.... Over the years, I purchased three prior 740i Sports that were nice, but not cream puffs, and not in the color combo I wanted. Just like RVAE34 said: low miles, excellent *original* paint and a nice interior....everything else is 'doable'. After closely following the market for 4+ years, I don't know how anybody can think the later E38 sports (both true i Sports and iL cosmetic Sports) aren't collector cars. No, they're not Talbot-Lagos or pre war Bugattis, but they are most definitely 'collected', and nice ones have a steady or rising value overall. Obviously we're talking about a much smaller economy of scale than prancing horse values, but money can be made if you understand the car and the market.....if that's your goal.

I do realize these cars aren't typically investments, although somebody on here recently nabbed a 740i, to which I'm certain could be resold immediately at 2x purchase price on the BaT venue . I'd say that is a solid ROI, should one chose to let go said cream puff!

Saying that the value is cyclic, with ups and downs is obviously true, but I'd argue that the reasons for the roller coaster trends (as was alluded to) are more due to socioeconomic factors, not the cars' inherent uniqueness and general desirability by automotive enthusiasts. A bad economy is going to hit all non-essential 'hobby investing' enterprises; such as car flipping. I don't think anybody here is arguing that point, just that it's not really pertinent to the conversation. It's like saying, why go through the effort to get a college education, when an asteroid could suddenly become a meteoroid and wipe us all out.

Of course there are long term trends that can be attributed negatively to a car's value, such as the current example of less and less 'old timers' being alive who are interested in 1930 Model A Fords; with the cars' value now on a long term decline. However, I don't think most people think in those longer terms. Bottom line, nice low mileage E38s are becoming fewer and thanks to the internet, more enthusiasts are finding them desirable, and accessible (monetarily speaking). That's the recipe for increased value. Low mileage is a fact of life now, and has a valid value adder to any modern car's worth. It's a good indicator of how the car was driven over time, what service items might be due, and is (like it or not) a fairly universal currency for the car's curb appeal as it applies to potential buyers' expectations.

BTW, I think we're smack dab in the middle of an interesting 'golden era' of car collecting, that will likely never be seen again. Once gasoline is out of production, and 'free-range' cars are replaced with fully networked electric self driving cars, all autos not destined for museums will be forfeited, and scrapped by the pound at your local automated reclamation center. Our hobby will be over and done with. So you say that these cars won't continue their rise to infinite heights in value? Well, in my opinion I think we are approaching the last rise of values, period. How many more up and down economic cycles will there be before cars aren't collected (or allowed to be owned!). I think the next (petrol) car collector value crash will likely be the last.

After that sad, dystopic, doomsday premonition, let me return us back to happy BMW-land.

I'll probably have another five grand into mine in the 1st year just to get it up to my level of satisfaction...heck, I've already spent $1800 on finding 7 original condition M-pars and new tires just to get a complete set to replace the PO's chrome wheels. I'm fairly certain that I wouldn't lose too much or break even on the car *if* it comes time to sell; mostly because of the lower mileage and rarer color. In the meantime, I get to enjoy refreshing the car and taking it to BMWCCA shows. I've got 6 BMWs in the fleet currently, so my 'collector' cars don't get driven much; maybe a tank of gas a year each. I guess that makes me the ideal E38 'cream puff' buyer....and I'm also in that special(?) 40-50 age range too.

So! My advice before the end of car collecting as we know it befalls us? Buy a well researched, un-molested cream puff in the color you want with excellent original paint and refreshable interior. Then budget for and expect the usual E38 shennanigans on top of the standard oil change/plugs/brakes etc...(i.e. VCG, TCG, OSV, CVP, HCV, cooling system, transmission flush/filter, struts, suspension arms, power steering hoses, battery drain issues, window regs, exterior rear window moldings, xenon wiring, and hood/trunk struts. After that's all completed, get new tires and get a professional paint correction done. If you have any other major items that need even more thousands of dollars to fix, you probably failed in choosing the right car. But wait! After all, it's in the color you like, and now looks unbelievable after the paint correction, so what the heck.... go ahead and buy the replacement ECM and get it coded to your car! Done! (probably not).

If all of that doesn't scare you away from a purchase, congratulations: you are one of the few, the proud and the cool; an enthusiast E38 owner; values be damned.

Cheers-

P.s. extra points if your car still has its original IR blocking 'comfort' windscreen.

[Trasportador]

$10k to repair a running e38 means the owner is a fool who takes the car to another fool that charges foolish prices.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[RVAE34]

Extremely eloquent, well put and balanced opinion/thoughts on the matter, Chamberlin!

[Mayorchuck]

Time to move on.

[Mayorchuck]

Thread opened. Express your opinions without getting personal please.

[wagons ho]

Chamberlin. As a primarily a e39 member, although I do own a e38, I had not formed an opinion of you from reading in the e38 forum. But I have now.
You are a wise sage that all members should read your post and decide where they are at in their car hobby.
As the owner of many collector cars (non bmw), knowing this and trying to make the decision on selling and keeping parts of the fleet, is hard.
The BMW'S in my fleet are considered drivers, although since I love them so much, I have fallen into the trap of trying to hoard nice ones for "later".
The time is now, the future is unknown, rock chips be damned!
P.S. Fratricbatemans comments from a historical perspective have merit and car collecting like all mania back to tulips have ups and downs.
Preservation(investment)vs. enjoyment vs. war on cars. There needs to be more talk about this. Out west with no salt to kill them, "culture" is doing a fine job.

[kouks]

EAG sold a Dinan 740 sport for $75k not long ago too iirc.

HOLY COW, maybe I should sell my DINAN! Even if I get a third of that I would pee my pants, It does have 101k on it though.

[georgebest]

Side note: as a non-American, it took me a lot of googling to figure out what do you all mean by "cream puff", thought it was a fancy name of a color or something. Too funny

[RVAE34]

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-740i-27/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-740i-14/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-750li-3/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-bmw-740i-7/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2000-bmw-740i-13/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1997-bmw-750il-3/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-740i-7/

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-740i/

[georgebest]

Beyond market trends, there is and always have been an allure of well maintained, older luxury cars. It's luxury without showing off. A beautiful E38 falls into this category, it's a timeless piece (at least until rust will eat it away).

[RVAE34]

Most consider it the last of the great BMW's. And there is no denying the timeless styling. Read the comments on my auction if you disagree. I loved the E38 long before I ever had the opportunity to own one but when new, they were $65-100k. I daily searched them for years before my purchase, having found only two I regret not buying. The silver 28k mile 01 sport that sold from a dealer for $12k that I called an hour too late on and the estoril on dove car that had under 30k miles for $25k or so. There is another one too but a good friend is in the process of getting that one and it puts all other E38's to shame. I was lucky as hell to get mine for $7k and the story of how that happened is hard to believe. There are plenty of these cars out there in the wild and oddly, many people who owned them are the best car caretakers you will find. Most are owned by older gentlemen with money and were climate controlled, rarely driven and meticulously maintained.

IMO, the best time in general for most enthusiasts to expect peak value is when the people who wanted the car in high school hit their 30's and 40's. You start to get more nostalgic and most have gotten to career level where they can afford to buy something nice. And plenty of people feel the same way I do because I have a massive automotive network of people I interact with on a daily basis. It's precisely why I am currently building a $60k+ Nissan Z31 300zx. A car I oddly hated for many years. I believe plenty of people share that enthusiasm and will want to purchase and possibly collect cars well into the future as well.

No matter what, a car is only new once. You cannot recreate factory fresh. There is something about driving a car of that age that is like it just rolled out of the dealership. Having owned about 40 cars and built many of them, I have learned that starting with the best, cleanest, most original and lowest mileage cars is always the best choice because mechanical stuff is easy and cheap. It's everything else that costs a fortune and is difficult to have done right.

[Chamberlin]

Extremely eloquent, well put and balanced opinion/thoughts on the matter, Chamberlin!

Chamberlin. As a primarily a e39 member, although I do own a e38, I had not formed an opinion of you from reading in the e38 forum. But I have now.
You are a wise sage that all members should read your post and decide where they are at in their car hobby.
As the owner of many collector cars (non bmw), knowing this and trying to make the decision on selling and keeping parts of the fleet, is hard.
The BMW'S in my fleet are considered drivers, although since I love them so much, I have fallen into the trap of trying to hoard nice ones for "later".
The time is now, the future is unknown, rock chips be damned!
P.S. Fratricbatemans comments from a historical perspective have merit and car collecting like all mania back to tulips have ups and downs.
Preservation(investment)vs. enjoyment vs. war on cars. There needs to be more talk about this. Out west with no salt to kill them, "culture" is doing a fine job.

Thanks guys, I must have had a wild hair up my pooper to spend 2 hours writing a reply post on bimmerforums! But like many of you, I'm quite passionate about these cars and sometimes I feel the need to defend our efforts in keeping the nice ones on the road.

Be careful wagons, that "hoarding the nice ones" mentality will turn into a serious disease quickly! I tried limiting my BMWs to only green ones, but that just made purchase decisions even easier! ...and there are a lot of well kept green BMWs out there I'm finding out! LOL If I only had a warehouse.

BTW, I do agree wholeheartedly with you on the preservation/investment/enjoyment topic... We actually had that discussion at our BMWCCA annual dinner this year, brought up by our visiting regional president Jeff Cowan. I'm one of the fairly rare refresh/restore/preserve guys, only taking the collector cars out for special occasions, with a couple of nice daily drivers for everything else. Most of my BMW buddies shake their head at me, but I do have a couple of sympathizers who understand the enjoyment of putting a car back to original condition both cosmetically and mechanically, and then maintaining that condition.

To recap my previous post, before I start off on another endless diatribe: IMHO, the more people who come to know what they're getting into for a generally agreed upon 'desirable collector' car, the more likely the value of said car is going to rise, as the supply of low mileage examples diminishes (world economic/political factors aside). I call it 'Chamberlin's law' LOL (kidding, I just made all that up).

My favorite car of all time, the Ferrari 308 GTB is a prime example. Everyone knows there's a dreaded engine-out timing belt service that has to be done, otherwise you're driving a monetary hand grenade with the pin pulled. Yet somehow, these 308's are considered $60K+ poker chips pretty much any day of the week.

Cheers brothers-

[RVAE34]

Wow! Great taste and choice for example. The 308 GTB is literally at the top of my list of realistic cars to acquire and build. More so than the 328 GTB. I would like a 79 (My birth year). I am just not ready to make that kind of purchase because I know it would have to be torn apart for a full resto mod which would really piss off the purists and be a risky financial decision. I feel that really nice early 308 GTB's are $75k min. The absolute dream is to own an F40 and I am working hard/saving to one day afford one of those when I retire. For now, I am returning to where my love for cars started. The 1980's with Nissan.

[georgebest]

I always liked the 612s but they never got popular. At around $80K they are very tempting to own, looks like something you can drive daily as well.

[wagons ho]

Be careful wagons, that "hoarding the nice ones" mentality will turn into a serious disease quickly! , -

It's too late for me save yourselves!

It all happened innocently enough. You find a car you like, realize that they are going away, buy another, realize parts are going away, buy parts for "incase". Get hit in car, buy another because they are even more rare and going away, then just buy all that you can find, especially with rare options.
Spend money on building, drive and be happy. 30 years go by, now they are worth too much, drive them anyway. Buy more.
Need a modern rear wheel drive V8. Buy a e38/e39. Repeat. Buy nice one as they are still available. Get hit , buy a spare. Ooh!, got to have an M5! Now you have too many bmw's. I'd buy more but I'm out of room.
But I have an exit plan, 300k and they go away. My first victim is almost there.

[RVAE34]

! You and I are the same. I buy so many parts it's ridiculous. Have become obsessed with buyee which is like the Japanese ebay.

[fratrickbateman]

I always liked the 612s but they never got popular. At around $80K they are very tempting to own, looks like something you can drive daily as well.

They'll get a heck of a lot cheaper that that in the future, that car is still very young. Every four seater Ferrari has two things in common.

1. High MSRP
2. Devestating depreciation.

The california will be the cheapest, eclipsing the 360. Whenever the next recession hits, you'll be able to buy one of those for the price of a big mac, and the 612 for the price of a big mac value meal.

E38 sport shorts and e39 540 sticks and m5s will have their day. The 95-2003 era of BMW was truly special and my only interest in the brand. I'm really not a big BMW fan, just that era only. We'll probably all be dead and buried by the time these cars become truly rare and worth coin. Too many of them out there. If you have a hard on for a 612 save your cash, you'll have your chance if you're patient. Supply and demand is always king (the current mania will not last, it never does). If i woke up tomorrow and some idiot wanted to pay me 70 grand for my near flawless sport short, I'd throw them the keys without hesitation, and start using my R129 as a daily driver. There is always an ass for every seat.

[rslifkin]

I've already seen the value of the E39 540/6 climb quite a bit. That's how I ended up buying an E38. The beat examples are cheap, but the good condition ones are getting more expensive, as it's getting harder to find them in good condition relative the number of people who want to buy them.

[georgebest]

They'll get a heck of a lot cheaper that that in the future, that car is still very young. Every four seater Ferrari has two things in common.

1. High MSRP
2. Devestating depreciation.

The california will be the cheapest, eclipsing the 360. Whenever the next recession hits, you'll be able to buy one of those for the price of a big mac, and the 612 for the price of a big mac value meal.

If you have a hard on for a 612 save your cash, you'll have your chance if you're patient..

I have been following the 612 prices for years now, but it feels it's stabilized at current level. Of course getting one for $50K would be awesome instead of the current $70K-$100K.

[fratrickbateman]

I have been following the 612 prices for years now, but it feels it's stabilized at current level. Of course getting one for $50K would be awesome instead of the current $70K-$100K.

That's where they are today with the hot market. Take that away and they will be 50 maybe even cheaper who knows. But they will be well under 70 thats for sure. When the market goes the other way the price will fall unbelievably fast, there will be no buyers for any of these cars. Nobody wants to try to catch falling knives.

I've already seen the value of the E39 540/6 climb quite a bit. That's how I ended up buying an E38. The beat examples are cheap, but the good condition ones are getting more expensive, as it's getting harder to find them in good condition relative the number of people who want to buy them.

The clean ones are going for more due to the mania. The nice, clean, average mile sorted cars have always been 6-9 grand depending on the condition. These cars are extremely difficult to find because owners like ourselves have invested loads of time and money into them and have spent about double that amount to own the car over time. We're not going to give them away at that price point unless we have to (meaning a financial difficulty or simply running out of room and having no choice but to sell). I'm getting paid to drive mine at this point but I still refuse to sell mine for that kind of money. It has 226k on it but runs, drives, handles, and looks like a BRAND NEW CAR. No engine noise, leaks, nothing. It would take a minimum of $10k to get me to part with it, which I know I would never get out of it. So therefore I will keep daily driving and enjoying it until it dies or some idiot offers me a crazy number. One or the other. My goal was to always get to 300k miles, might happen.

[sirbevo]

Reading this whole thread got me to thinking how lucky I guess I am with my E38. I found mine in Austin, TX for $3700 (I live in Michigan...and umm..ya..not buying one from up here) . It is a 2000 740iL with 103k miles on it and very well taken care of. I have thrown about 3k into it so far, the driveshaft being the most expensive thing other than new Conti tires. Most issues are the typical bad, bad plastic pieces like the wheel well shields, windshield washer line fittings, headlight washer, etc. When the time comes for new guides, I'll tackle that myself as well.

I only drive it in the summer because of the salt on the roads in winter up here.

Overall I'm a very happy E38 owner and will continue to put $$ into it. The compliments I get are icing on the cake. Next up, a black on black 750iL. Still looking.

Side note: 2 years ago I found a black/black 750iL right here in Holland, Mi and it was immaculate. 92k miles. he wanted 8300 and finally dropped it to 7500 and I still didn't buy it. Week later it was sold to someone across the country. i'm still kicking myself inthe ass for not buying it then.

[CPHES]

Yeah, black / Black 750 is a good combo. I got a 2000 out of Boston. Some door rust, but I got two black replacement doors. I just managed to get lwb shadowline lower door trim.