Buying cream puff E38 is typically a BAD IDEA

[fratrickbateman]

Check out this guy who thought he got a great deal on BAT (read comments). That should be a lesson to every potential buyer out there, never buy a cream puff E38 if you plan on driving it. And it better have paper work! That car is going to cost that buyer 18 grand before the first year is even over. This was a 2500 dollar car he just payed 10k for simply because it was waxed up and placed on bring a trailer and had "low miles". Oooohhhh ahhhhhhhh!

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-bmw-740i-26/

"valve covers were leaking so badly that you could smell burning oil inside the cabin within 10 seconds of starting the car. There’s a laundry list of deficiencies including a missing key (the description detailed 2 keys), inoperable rear window (the description detailed a new regulator, maybe there is and this one isn’t working in addition to that), blown front struts, and other stuff which totals a bit more than $5,000."

And he hasn't even driven it a mile yet. Wait till he puts about 2-3k miles on it, that was just the opening act! LOL.

Also, people really need to watch out for mileage roll back on these now that people are trying to flip them. I used that AK90 programmer last month to make a few new keys and found out that you can change the mileage to any number you want through the program. If a shady flipper can find a high mileage car without much action on the carfax, they can easily misrepresent the mileage.

[Narlift]

oops !

[pullinmyhairout]

I don’t share the same negative tone about this car as the OP. I think if you got charged $5,000 for struts and a window regulator you have a dick head mechanic. High mileage bmws (yes 90k is included in this) are prone to all these issues.

If you want a perfect car, go drop $25,000+++ on an instantly depreciating brand new one.

However, I do think some of the BAT listings are just your typical used cars with really good exterior/interior cleanings and well lighted pictures. If OP wanted an e38 over a new car, and spent $15,000 (which is a bit of a joke) he still came out on top compared to buying a brand new versa, etc...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rslifkin]

The lesson isn't "don't buy a cream puff", it's "make sure the cream puff looking one is really as good as they claim"

[samsonevickis]

Yeah, this doesn't seem that bad. I just sold an E55 Wagon on BaT, great experience, its super low miles and was fully sorted before listing.

But if I buy any E38 I expect Valve Cover Gaskets to be leaking unless done within the last 3-4yrs. I expect timing cover gasket to be leaking after 10yrs.

But under 100K I expect transmission to shift smooth and leather to be supple or uncracked.

I'd rather change struts and VCGs than reupholster leather sport seats.

I had a chance to get a sporty shorty for $500 I passed and got my 750iL for $1000 (Circa 2016), both needed $5K in parts, but I wanted the V12 and rear heated seats. I think overall he got a good deal, $10K for a reasonably sorted E38 sport is a good deal.

[fratrickbateman]

If OP wanted an e38 over a new car, and spent $15,000 (which is a bit of a joke) he still came out on top compared to buying a brand new versa, etc...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Disagree. First of all if you buy a "nice E38" for 15k its' probably going to be one of the 50-60k mile cars. Cars that are going to have even more repairs ahead of them than that piece of garbage that was just hawked on bat. So now your total cost of ownership skyrockets even higher to 22-25 grand. (yes you will put five figures into a 50k mile e38 if you plan on driving it) and you will put that money into it QUICKLY. Then let's say you're driving it frequently and putting the average 10k miles a year on it. Now you're on year 4 with close to 100k miles and a car that you've dumped at least 28 into and now its worth, drum roll...... 7 grand! Not worth it at all. Those cars are good for a car collector who doesn't plan on driving it at all. Using the car otherwise is suicide.

$28 grand -7 grand is 21/4 = $5250 dollars a year to own. Or $437.50 a month. A terrible value for a used car.

And lastly the 15 total he just spent in the beginning is just the appetizer. Get in touch with him after he's put about 5k miles on it or 2 years later. These cars on average cost about 1500-2k a year to run. He will be in for a few more surprises before he enters that average. That initial cost of ownership number is going to balloon and balloon HEAVILY in the next 6-18 months. He will be owning that car for well over 500 dollars a month.

[RVAE34]

Those items are all easy fixes. What isnt easy is paint and interior.

[fratrickbateman]

Those items are all easy fixes. What isnt easy is paint and interior.

Interior yes. Paint no, but only if you have access to somebody who is a one man show and does INCREDIBLE work for low cost. They're out there but are VERY difficult to find. The paint jobs won't be 10/10 but they will be close 9.7/10 which is good enough for me on a car that I'm going to daily drive. I had mine resprayed for $2k and 5 years later it still looks stunning.

[RVAE34]

Doesnt matter. Original paint is always worth more if comparing apples to apples.

[fratrickbateman]

Doesnt matter. Original paint is always worth more if comparing apples to apples.

That's true but not today. The E38 is not a collectible car. It will be 25-30 years from now when they're all gone and yes you're right at that point it will be worth more. But today? No way. It isn't old enough yet.

[RVAE34]

Ok. What do I know I only sold mine for $58k. If you don't think the e38 is a collectible today then you really dont know what you are talking about. The mint low mileage clean one owner cars are bringing pretty serious money and will continue to do so. Mechanical issues mentioned are easy and relatively cheap but all the folks with money want original paint/interior. Yes my interior was dyed but it was done by a professional and using a mint 38k mile base. The cost of a true like original paintjob (must be glass out) is far more expensive and difficult than just finding a cream puff. And sure, maybe you could find a friend who is the best of the best and will do it cheap but that is certainly not true for 99.9% of the general population. I'll get off my soap box now. Just annoys me when people come in here spouting off about this type of thing without personal experience. I have my finger on the pulse of many cars, have watched the purchases and sales of mint e38's and have several friends who have bought and sold some of the best e38's. EAG sold a Dinan 740 sport for $75k not long ago too iirc.

[fratrickbateman]

Ok. What do I know I only sold mine for $58k.

Markets go up and down. Right now the economy is doing well and you have a lot of uneducated buyers who are buying things off of a list and buyers who are just going out and buying anything and everything that the perceive to be "rare." Car market is hot right now. Your car was certainly worth a good amount of money but nowhere near the price that was paid. Be happy you sold it when you did. When the market goes the other way (always does) that car will be worth a fraction of that price. Long story short, that would have been a 15-20k car pre 2014. Which should give you a pretty good idea of what it is actually worth in a normal market.

If you don't believe it go ask anybody over the age of 60 and they'll tell you. The "classic car market" comes and goes. And when it goes, it goes big.

And the E38 is not a collectible car at this point in time. Not even close.

[fratrickbateman]

I have my finger on the pulse of many cars, have watched the purchases and sales of mint e38's and have several friends who have bought and sold some of the best e38's. EAG sold a Dinan 740 sport for $75k not long ago too iirc.

And those same cars pre 2014 weren't worth anywhere near that amount. You may want to ask yourself why that is, and why it is that the "values" went up so quickly.

"If you don't think the e38 is a collectible today then you really dont know what you are talking about. The mint low mileage clean one owner cars are bringing pretty serious money and will continue to do so."

Tell that to all of the people who got smoked in the classic car bubble in 89 and the people who got smoked in the muscle car bubble in 2007. You use words like "will continue to do so" as if they're finite and written in stones. Markets go up and down. They don't rise to eternity like you're preaching.

And I do have a pretty good window into this. in 2013 I had both a Testarossa and 550 maranello. I sold the Maranello two years later for 3 times the amount I bought it for not for the money, but because I didn't like the car. I had plenty of greedy, stupid flippers who somehow found me and wanted to buy my Testarossa which was not for sale. That car went up even more than the 550 did. Plenty of people lost their butts trying to flip those too and got caught when the market went the other way. Neither of the two cars are ultra rare yet when the money was flowing people kept convincing themselves that they were in fact rare. There are probably about 3,000 of both models floating around the US at this very moment.

The E38 is Not a collectible car. There are too many of them out there and they are not rare enough yet. Facts.

Cars are not investments. If you haven't figured that out yet, you're going to be in for a rude awakening when the time comes.

[rslifkin]

The E38 is Not a collectible car. There are too many of them out there and they are not rare enough yet. Facts.

That doesn't mean that certain examples can't end up being desirable or selling for a significant price, however. It just means that not any old E38 is necessarily worth much. And the number of people willing to buy the high priced ones is limited so you'll see the right ones sell at high prices here and there, but a lot of others sell for much lower prices in between.

[CPHES]

That’s a west coast car. A little high, but not a real bad deal either. When you bid on an open auction, you have to know what to spend, and there could be issues.

[RVAE34]

Markets go up and down. Right now the economy is doing well and you have a lot of uneducated buyers who are buying things off of a list and buyers who are just going out and buying anything and everything that the perceive to be "rare." Car market is hot right now. Your car was certainly worth a good amount of money but nowhere near the price that was paid. Be happy you sold it when you did. When the market goes the other way (always does) that car will be worth a fraction of that price. Long story short, that would have been a 15-20k car pre 2014. Which should give you a pretty good idea of what it is actually worth in a normal market.

If you don't believe it go ask anybody over the age of 60 and they'll tell you. The "classic car market" comes and goes. And when it goes, it goes big.

And the E38 is not a collectible car at this point in time. Not even close.

Ask the current owner how much he was offered by a Porsche collector that shares the private garage with him. Agree to disagree. Great F cars you have owned but that doesn't mean much in regards to 38's. I have been studying the e38 market closely for years now. I don't see how people over 60 are relevant to this discussion either. I'd argue it's the guys in their 40's and 50's paying the premium for e38's right now. Sure that can and will change but the initial point is that the cream puff e38's are the ones people want and will pay a premium for in this current market and that's all that matters right now.

And you are saying that the car I had built would only be worth 15 to 25k in 2014? How could you even know that with certainty unless the same car sold then? If my car wasnt worth what it sold for then how or why did it sell? So you know what my car was worth when it wasnt for sale and also tell me it wasnt worth what it sold for when it actually sold? Makes a lot of sense.. I also don't need to go ask guys in their 60's for their opinions. I'm only interested in the facts. Lastly, there were multiple bidders on my car. But you still say it wasn't worth that? A car is worth what someone is willing to pay not what you think it should be worth.

[fratrickbateman]

I also don't need to go ask guys in their 60's for their opinions. I'm only interested in the facts.

Fact 1. Guys in their 60s have been around the block and seen this happen over and over again. That was the point of my statement. If you don't want to heed that warning then proceed at your own peril. They have the wisdom, we don't. Your statements sound like a real estate investor pre 2007. I saw the asking prices of those E38 M5 and Manual swaps back in the day and they were hardly more expensive than just a standard nicely kept E38. They may not have been as nice as yours but probably pretty darn close.
Fact 2. They are selling for that price today fact. And you just stated that the price is the price in the current market and that's all that matters right now. So again, what happens if I go out and by this "dinan 740" you're talking about right now and then two years later the market falls out and the car is only worth 20? You seem to be only concerned with the Present moment of now than the future. Nobody knows when the market will go the other way, me included but the fact remains that IT WILL GO THE OTHER WAY whether you like it or not. And when it does, it falls 3x faster than it went up. So if you're paying 70 grand for an E38 BMW today, (which is a crack pipe price) then you have along way downward to go. If you're buying cars as investments and not just for fun, knock yourself out, it's a free country. But if it's money you're looking to park or earn, then you're going to be pretty butt hurt when the hair cut comes.

[RVAE34]

You skipped over the part where you said my car wasnt worth what it sold for with multiple bidders but knew what it was worth when it wasnt for sale. Everything else you are saying is speculation. You might be right or wrong on future prices. Same with me. But I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about right now. I'm a financial advisor so I invest in stocks not cars.

[Aitch]

True, a car is only worth what someone will pay for it. And turns out when the economy is in the crapper, say, 2007-2008, people will be much less willing to spend on frivolous things like classic cars, especially when their prices had been running up just like everything else.

On the flip side, like you Brandon pointed out, many people were willing to pay over $50k for his car, and one did, and has already been offered a higher amount to sell the car again to someone else. The market demand is there, the car is "worth" that amount.

But to add to that, Brandon has also pointed out that it literally costs in that ballpark just to build the car the way he did. So it's not just an inflated market, but also a realization of the fundamental worth of the car, instead of a purely speculative worth.

Go and try to build a similar car for less...

Sure there are lots of times where you can buy someone's project/restored car for less than it cost to build. But that's what makes it a hobby, not an investment.

[georgebest]

Ok. What do I know I only sold mine for $58k. If you don't think the e38 is a collectible today then you really dont know what you are talking about. The mint low mileage clean one owner cars are bringing pretty serious money and will continue to do so. Mechanical issues mentioned are easy and relatively cheap but all the folks with money want original paint/interior. Yes my interior was dyed but it was done by a professional and using a mint 38k mile base. The cost of a true like original paintjob (must be glass out) is far more expensive and difficult than just finding a cream puff. And sure, maybe you could find a friend who is the best of the best and will do it cheap but that is certainly not true for 99.9% of the general population. I'll get off my soap box now. Just annoys me when people come in here spouting off about this type of thing without personal experience. I have my finger on the pulse of many cars, have watched the purchases and sales of mint e38's and have several friends who have bought and sold some of the best e38's. EAG sold a Dinan 740 sport for $75k not long ago too iirc.

Just curious, what would be the price of a high level paint job like original?

[RVAE34]

At least 10k.

[sirbevo]

10k is probably on the high side for just a paint job. If there is considerable body work then yes but just a repaint using Glasurit wouldn't be 10k.

I think what you can run into during a "repaint" on these cars is the brittleness of all the trim tabs and such. replacing broken trim pieces can get very expensive very fast. And lets face it, whether YOU remove what needs to be removed before the paint or someone else, there WILL be broken pieces when removing.

[fratrickbateman]

10k is probably on the high side for just a paint job. If there is considerable body work then yes but just a repaint using Glasurit wouldn't be 10k.

I think what you can run into during a "repaint" on these cars is the brittleness of all the trim tabs and such. replacing broken trim pieces can get very expensive very fast. And lets face it, whether YOU remove what needs to be removed before the paint or someone else, there WILL be broken pieces when removing.

I didn't experience any trim pieces snapping or breaking during my respray. THe only thing I replaced was the front license plate piece with a the plate delete. He repainted my trim for me while it was off the car. None of the trim has come loose in the past 5 years.

[sirbevo]

I didn't experience any trim pieces snapping or breaking during my respray. THe only thing I replaced was the front license plate piece with a the plate delete. He repainted my trim for me while it was off the car. None of the trim has come loose in the past 5 years.

Well, that's good news because it's the only thing that has kept me from doing a repaint. Was scared to death of broken pieces adding to the cost.

[georgebest]

At least 10k.

Wow, and here I am unhappy with my $1,400 paint job Maybe it's fine for the money!