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Thread: Be careful using a clutch pedal stop

  1. #1
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    Be careful using a clutch pedal stop

    I purchased a 1999 M3 back in December and right away noticed it had a clutch stop. I had never had a car with one and liked the way it felt so kept it in. The clutch appeared to operate correctly, the car didn't creep, however it was usually difficult to shift into first, reverse, or really any gear from a stand still. I attributed it to bad shifter bushings and the 5th gear lean detent pins. I changed the bushing and things got slightly better but not much. Today I decided to remove the clutch stop to see how it felt and to my surprise, found it significantly easier to shift into gear. Turns out the clutch wasn't fully disengaging even though the car didn't move with the pedal against the stop.

    I had similar symptoms in my e39 M5 when the throw out bearing was sticking on the collar it slides on.

    So a word to those with clutch stops, don't set it just before the tipping point, the clutch won't actually be fully disengaged.
    Current fleet:
    1999 BMW e36 M3
    1999 BMW e36 328is with rotary valve engine head
    1999 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
    1990 Jeep Comanche Eliminator
    1962 Austin Healey Sprite

  2. #2
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    Yup. Just turn it in a bit further and you'll be gtg.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxxxxxx View Post
    Yup. Just turn it in a bit further and you'll be gtg.
    I took mine out completely. Although this does mean you have to push the clutch in further...

  4. #4
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    I took it out for now as the one that was installed was already maxed in. I may cut half an inch off of it and try it. However I like the feel of the long clutch, it reminds me strongly of the e39 M5 I used to have. The new crisp feeling of the shifter is fantastic too.

  5. #5
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    I think you want the factory one in there to prevent over-travel.


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  6. #6
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    Clutch stops have been known to cause more problems than anything. Especially when it comes to synchros.

  7. #7
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    Going on 17 years here with my E36. No problems yet with my homedepot special. Like anything else you just have to set it up such that it works correctly. Being basically just a bolt, proper setup is not exactly rocket science.
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  8. #8
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    I still don't understand the benefit of such?
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  9. #9
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    I'll have to see what my 328is has in terms of clutch stops as I suspect it's stock.
    I can't imagine why pushing it too far would be an issue, the slave piston certainly isn't going to over extended. It could I guess build extra pressure in the hydraulic line if it stubbs out.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moron95M3 View Post
    I still don't understand the benefit of such?
    Less travel, facilitates quicker shifts... Also the stock e36 travel is just ridiculously long...
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  11. #11
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    I too am using a double nutt'd Elevator Bolt from HD set a hair past the grab point (for some cushion). No problems on my end after the last 4 years but agreed it has to be set up correctly. When i first got it i put it too shallow for Clutch Switch to activate and couldn't start my car. Was scratching my head for like 3 days on that one lol

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxxxxxx View Post
    Less travel, facilitates quicker shifts... Also the stock e36 travel is just ridiculously long...
    I just mash it to the floor and when it bottoms out, I know I have a good shift window. Then I can slap the ol stick into the next gear quickly and release the clutch asap. Staby stomp the clutch and smack the stick. One of these days I will get a paddle shift kit and get shwifty...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiberFast View Post
    I just mash it to the floor and when it bottoms out, I know I have a good shift window. Then I can slap the ol stick into the next gear quickly and release the clutch asap. Staby stomp the clutch and smack the stick. One of these days I will get a paddle shift kit and get shwifty...
    Exactly. No need to reinvent the wheel.

    +1 on the paddle shift.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moron95M3 View Post
    I still don't understand the benefit of such?
    I recently had to thread my clutch stop out a little. I'm an "all the way in" kind of guy, but when I Really pushed it in all the way I could feel the throw-out bearing rubbing on the inside of the clutch disc from being pushed in too far, so I had to thread the stop out a little.

    This may be the product of the ltw flywheel I'm using (UUC parts all around), or it may also be due to the 237k miles on the clutch pedal bushings being completely worn out and letting it move enough to slip past the stop and into the carpet (and being threaded out makes it easier to tell when I've gone far enough).

    But I've just recently found it useful.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

  15. #15
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    Same experience as OP. I read posts, but still dont' see why anyone would put a stop there. The diff for your leg is negligible, and the potential for harm is definite.

  16. #16
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    I threw a longer one in my e21 because my aftermarket master cylinder was bottoming out.

    Also put one in an e30 because the clutch going back even further with the carpet stripped out felt weird.


  17. #17
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    So I wanted to bump this. I'm running a competition clutch for my turbo M3, but I felt this thread speaks to my "issue."

    When my car is fully warmed up, shifting into first can be a chore at times. I have bled my slave (using a 325i slave) and it is much better than it used to be, but still not what I would think is perfect. I have the stock clutch "buffer" or stop installed. In fact, if I push the clutch past the little buffer (going to replace the pedal bushings soon) because it can slide off it to the left, that is usually enough travel to shift into first. Here are my questions/thoughts:

    1) I bled the slave by pulling it from the trans and holding the bleeder screw up/manual method and I don't see any bubbles coming out. Could there STILL be air in there? I just don't think its going to get better this way. Tried pumping fluid from the bottom and it just makes more mess and I still don't see any improvement.

    2) Is there a slave with a different rod length or a way to make the clutch release at an earlier point? That would be nice.

    3) The master is original and doesn't leak. Does it wear out internally to the point where it is not pushing enough fluid to the slave?

    4) Any other ideas? Car shifts buttery smooth with car off and when it is completely cold!
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)

    1999 Techno Violet/Dove M3
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  18. #18
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    problem is the clutch doesn't disconnect properly, that's why you don't have problems with engine off.

    there's nothing you can do. Clutch systems in e36 are just like that. They don't disconnect properly, even when new. It's due to the design, the geometry of the levers, ratios and such. I also don't like it. In my eyes bmw engineers didn't do a good job here.

    The only way I can think of to help this, is to get the slave to push out further, moving the throw out bearing further to the clutch, "opening" the clutch more. But who knows if the big clutch lever tolerates that, or if it starts touching something it shouldn't. I'm also not sure if the clutch works that way, that you can just "push" it further.

    Maybe there are other masters or slaves from other models that offer what we need. It would cause a harder pedal, because you still only have your set pedal travel, but want to move the throw out bearing further.

    I think I read once that some people used e36 325i slaves (or masters?), but I'm not sure if that was about the same problem. Maybe it can give you a start to google your way to a solution.
    Last edited by importbanana; 06-29-2021 at 09:44 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by importbanana View Post
    problem is the clutch doesn't disconnect properly, that's why you don't have problems with engine off.

    there's nothing you can do. Clutch systems in e36 are just like that. They don't disconnect properly, even when new. It's due to the design, the geometry of the levers, ratios and such. I also don't like it. In my eyes bmw engineers didn't do a good job here.

    The only way I can think of to help this, is to get the slave to push out further, moving the throw out bearing further to the clutch, "opening" the clutch more. But who knows if the big clutch lever tolerates that, or if it starts touching something it shouldn't. I'm also not sure if the clutch works that way, that you can just "push" it further.

    Maybe there are other masters or slaves from other models that offer what we need. It would cause a harder pedal, because you still only have your set pedal travel, but want to move the throw out bearing further.

    I think I read once that some people used e36 325i slaves (or masters?), but I'm not sure if that was about the same problem. Maybe it can give you a start to google your way to a solution.
    Thanks, I'm already using the 325i slave (which is supposed to restore the feel with the heavy duty clutch). If the job of the slave is to push the fork, fork pushes the throwout bearing against the pressure plate, then I think the only way to improve this is slightly longer rod on the slave, or a longer throw out bearing? I wouldn't need to be significantly longer and I don't know if anyone has found something that would work to rectify this.
    1997 Arctic Silver/Black M3
    CES Stage IV (651rwhp/615rwtq @ 24 psi)

    1999 Techno Violet/Dove M3
    Auto/Convertible and staying stock!

  20. #20
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    I think you're doing a logic mistake here. Length of the rod or throw out bearing doesn't matter. If the rod would be longer, it would already be pushing even when you're not touching the clutch pedal.

    Only thing that matters is the travel of these parts.

    My personal opinion is that the problem is caused by bad clutch plate design and could only be solved by changing the pivot point of the internal clutch springs themselves (see photo).

    Throw out bearing presses on green.

    This lifts the spring off at blue, releasing pressure off of the clutch plate.

    Now, if pivot point yellow would be further in towards the throw out bearing, your same throw out bearing travel would result in a bigger travel on the other side (blue), releasing the spring further off, causing better "disconnecting" from the engine. Of course that leads to higher forces needed at the pedal. BMW probably didn't want this and went for a compromise, which is why he have this situation on the e36.

    It's these springs not getting lifted off of the clutch plate enough, causing the clutch plate to drag along, therefore turning the input shaft too much when it shouldn't, giving us problems shifting.

    The way I see it that would be the only area where you can change something to achieve better clutch operation in the way we want it, while staying at the same set pedal travel.

    Since we can't change that on a clutch, we'd need to install another known good operating clutch from another brand or model. Who knows if there's enough clearance everywhere when installing a different clutch. And then the diameter and all that would need to match as well.


    Last edited by importbanana; 06-30-2021 at 04:01 AM.

  21. #21
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    For those using a 325/328 slave to change clutch feel on an M3 - here’s my experience. I installed a 328 slave to change pedal feel after doing the ZF GS6 swap along with a stock E46 clutch stack - and while the slave actuator pistons look similar in length here’s what I saw. The plastic tip that plugs onto the end of the actuator piston is longer on the E46 and M3 slaves, and the plastic tips on 328/325 slaves are much shorter or nubby. Having driven my M on a factory clutch with an annoyingly low bite point, and worrying about having this again, I put the longer plastic tip on the 328 slave before bolting it up in the bellhousing. So far I’m much happier with my clutch bite point being more in a medium point of travel. That’s my experience, ymmv.

  22. #22
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    The E34 M5 pressure plate is about twice as deep as the normal e36 pressure plate (compared the UUC setup to a normal LTW flywheel / pressure plate), which may make you pedal more modulate-able.

    But I didn't notice any better or worse disengagement after switching to an E46 setup for my GS6 6 speed.


    The E46 setup allows installing the TOB in two orientations - high and low (US cars are low, RoW cars are high). I have no idea why this is different, but you could install this in the high position. But the complete stack-up height of everything is very consistent, and I think any change would essentially ride the clutch to failure.


    When i took everything apart I found my stainless pivot pin was just starting to mushroom like the brass one did, and I had noticed for months that my engagement point was getting closer and closer to the floor.


    And this was from losing... MAYBE 1/8th of an inch in the pivot pin.
    20210511_122218.jpg

    I've also - when everything was freshly replaced - had something make contact inside the bell housing with the clutch depressed all the way (and no clutch stop in place). Felt like the fork was just making contact with the rivets on the pressure plate.

    There's just not a lot of room to play with in there.

    -Josh: 1998 S54 E36 M3/4/6 with most of the easy stuff and most of the hard stuff. At least twice. 271k miles. 1994 E32 740il with nothing but some MPars. 93k miles.

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