issues with suspension

[themusgrat]

Hi,

So I have been driving an E36 for a few years, but haven't done much with it. I have some issues with suspension, namely, I don't think that anything has ever been done since day 1 to the suspension, and the car now is at 190k miles.

A shop basically said you need new front suspension, rear bushings, and your drive shaft is causing wobble, plus another 30 things not related to suspension, that I can generally live with.

This is my question (actually a few), just because I am going to do all of this myself (they want like 4k). First, normally you start with replacing the guibo, right? Before deciding you need a new driveshaft? If I do the guibo, is there anything else I should do while I'm down there?

Second, if I'm doing the front suspension, do you think stock springs and basic shocks is ok, or is there some secret formula thing that I'd want to do. Not interested in lowering the car any, I live in a place where potholes are called "normal road," and this is my daily driver. I do plan on getting a kit that has mounts, and all of that stuff, and replacing those parts along with the struts.

Third, is it ok to just replace the rear trailing arm bushings, or should I be doing other stuff? They said the front struts are leaking, but nothing about the rear struts.

Sorry to be so helpless. I've spent 20 hours in the past week reading up on all of this stuff, and I think I can get it all done, but you guys just know more off the top of your heads than I can learn in many weeks of reading.

[jmo69]

Stock suspension is just fine, do the center support bearing on the drive shaft. If you are doing this your self put Poly RTABs in, easier to install and no pre loading. Rear shocks should replaced along with the upgraded Meyle HD mounts. By rights all the rubber should be replaced if you plan on driving this car for a while yet.

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[Nanniepoo]

Just a word of warning about guibo/driveshaft...I replaced my guibo since it was showing symptoms of failing and failed a visual inspection. I felt like my driveshaft was questionable at the time....now a whole 3000 miles later I'm getting vibration again. So now I gotta go back in and replace it all.

I would get Sachs replacement shocks. It'll be night and day anyways comparing to a worn out suspension.

I don't find suspension work to be technically challenging or tricky, but being in MI dealing with rust and bolts that really refuse to move is the biggest challenge. Get an alignment when you're done.

[themusgrat]

Sounds good. Thank you both for your help. I will try just doing the guibo, only because I am in need of penny pinching at the moment. And will do the center support bearing, sachs, all new front mounts and rubber, poly rtab, rear suspension, the Meyle HD mounts. I might leave the rest of the rear rubber alone, again, penny pinching. Rather have to redo something than spend more than I have to.

If I remember, I'll try to take some pics to update the thread, when I get into it. Might be fun to see 190k mile suspension parts.

[Eric93se]

You have to do the center support bearing when you do the guibo. The exhaust has to come down to drop the drive shaft. The exhaust comes down as one piece, you need two (triangle) gaskets for the exhaust, never reuse old gaskets on the exhaust. Do not buy the URO brand for any part!

When buying the center support bearing buy it as the whole part and not just the bearing. RMeuropean has one for just $10, or RockAuto has the Timken brand for $40. When buying the guibo be sure to get the right part for your car, there is one for an Auto and one for a 5spd.

[pizzaman09]

It's very convenient to do shifter bushings when the guibo is out. I highly recommend if they are in need of replacement.

[themusgrat]

New question, again, sorry to be so useless.

Now, when I start the car, clutch depressed, but still in gear, I hear a sound coming from under the shifter. In gear, when I accelerate, there is a high pitched whining noise coming from there, basically sounds like air escaping. Also there is a horrible vibration inbetween 60-80mph, to the point where I think running it is hurting something.

I'm goiong to redo a lot of the causes of vibration, but is this a transmission problem? Maybe I should take a video of it.

[scooper]

Replace rtabs with stock but add delrin limiters from akg or vorshlag. Get the proper tools to do the job. Poly won't last very long and in some instances will squeak. If you put grease in there it won't hold toe. Are there vibrations when you shift? Whining could be a bad diff among other things.

[themusgrat]

Thanks!

Yes, there is vibration when I shift (in the process of letting up on the clutch), as well as a very metallic sound once the car is in gear that I can't hear from inside, but with the windows open, I can.

Interesting about the poly. I will look into what I'd need to do the rubber bushings.

edit: I halfway wonder about monoball, if that is the easiest to do myself. Cost isn't too different, all things considered.

[Eric93se]

I don't know scooper, I have poly RTAB bushings and they are great, they have limiters built in, squeaking is rare but requires the right grease. If anything rear toe will fluctuate more with regular rubber because it give a whole lot more.

Themusgrat, have you ever replaced the fluid on your trans? Might also give you some insight into the condition of the trans, ie how bad the fluid is and anything metallic in there. Can also help quieting things down in some cases.

For the 5spd, its super important to have good trans mounts, otherwise a money shift is a real possibility.

[themusgrat]

Another few questions. Still haven't touched the car, just haven't had the funds. Good thing is, now have a friend who will let me use a lift at a shop, which will make hanging down the exhaust much easier.

If I am doing this to fix the horrible vibration, should I do this in shifts? Like do the flex disc and center support, then drive it and see if that fixed it? Or should I also go ahead and do all the suspension? Will it matter, later, to know exactly what fixed it or not?

If this is a 12/98 328is, it should have sport suspension right?

Also, about E36 angel eyes... I read here that predator chromium is the way to go, but umnitza said they are too unreliable, and I should go with orion V2 or V4. Anyone have experience?

To answer the question about transmission fluid, I'm going to do that first, before taking it to the shop. I don't expect it to fix anything, but it can't hurt, and I already have the fluid.

So the full list of to-do:

Stage 1:
flex disc
center bearing&support
transmission mounts
O2 sensors (both precat)

Stage 2:
rear shocks
RTAB (monoball)
Ball Jointsx4
rear shock mounts

Stage 3:
Front suspension mounts
Front struts
control arms (with ball joints)
control arm bushing

Again, thanks so much for all of your help. Without you guys, I'd pretty much have to just sell it for scrap metal, it drives horribly. I think I'll spend about 800 on parts, and I want headlights, so another 600, and then it should be good to go for a good while longer.

[themusgrat]

So, a bit of an update.

I thought in case anyone ever finds this, I'd share what I found to be necessary, that many of the videos skip over completely, which is getting the front control arms off.

I tried to take the front control arm bushing off of the control arms, but at 190k miles... it was in there pretty good. Also, there are 2 bearings in the control arm that I don't think are replacable, so I just ordered control arms for the front. I've read that you need all sorts of things, but the truth is, if you're doing this on jack stands, you NEED a pickle fork, or ball joint separator. Don't even try it without it, if like mine, your control arms have been banged into the subframe for 200k miles... And you NEED at least a 4 pound hammer.

I banged on the control arms for at least 5 hours, thinking the hammer alone would do it, but you just cannot get enough clearance to swing. Also, take the sway bar/stabilizer bar off. You'll need to replace its bushings and links as well.

Anyways, I've got the front and rear shocks/struts done, front control arms/bushings, swaybar links/bushings are on the way from the store, and I'm about to go in and do the driveshaft center support bearing and flex disc. After that, I still have the RTABs to do, I ended up with a Turner monoball. It seems like a big enough pain that I don't want to do it again.

I'll post pictures/videos later, but of the 4 shocks/struts, only 1 had any resistance left in it. The other 3 had nothing, so already the car feels like heaven. I had no idea how effed my suspension was, but now I know. 190k miles is not kind to anything... Also, from what I've read and seen with my car, as soon as anything in the suspension goes, everything else gives in soon after. You need the rubber and the shocks/struts to all be in good shape, otherwise whatever doesn't work is making the working stuff work much harder than it should.

This has all taken me 50 hours of reading online, like $1,200, and I've spent 15 hours under the car. Never attempted anything like this before. Only really frustrating part was the control arms. Oh, and for some reason nobody tells you in videos that the rear shock mounts are hard to get to. That was annoying too.

Again, for all who replied and helped, thank you so much. I'm learning a lot, and saving some money.

edit: Actually 1 more tool you need... There is a battery powered impact wrench from harbor freight that gives 1,200 torque lbs, that saved me. I had a pneumatic, it was having trouble. The harbor freight one is now the most valuable tool I own. Any and all rusty bolts stand no chance.

[themusgrat]

Need help. I don't think the driveshaft is supposed to do this, right? This is the rear connection.






edit: So after reading around, there is no replacing the u-joints, correct? I just need a new driveshaft.... Totally great.

edit2: I see where a few guys have replaced their own ujoints, but I just don't have the time, and don't have the tools either. I ordered a rebuilt driveshaft, it was $393. For a poor person like me, painful, but hopefully it lasts a long, long time.

[scooper]

that u-joint/DS needs replacing. Not tight anymore.

[themusgrat]

that u-joint/DS needs replacing. Not tight anymore.

That's what I gathered... I ordered a rebuilt driveshaft, for $393. Not a bad deal, considering at first I thought it was going to be more like 1k.

Got swaybar bushings/links today, so will do that.

[themusgrat]

Got the swaybar bushings and links done today, switched out the driveshafts, new flex disc/center support, new O2 sensors, and more or less put it all back together.... I'll be honest, it took me about 8 hours, which is probably 7 more than it would take a mechanic, but man, wrangling the exhaust back on was tough by myself, and only jack stands/ height for clearance. Ended up using a dolly, and the jack to help myself out, but it was rough.

Also somehow stripped 2 of the header nuts, so one pipe has 3 nuts on it, the other only 1... And I might need to drive it, hoping it doesn't sound like hell. New nuts are on the way, had to order new triangle gaskets anyways, I somehow lost them.

Tomorrow, get a new battery (old one depleted and sat too long, totally dead, lasted 7 years from what I can tell), do the RTAB and rear sway bar bushings/links, and then I'll more or less be set. Just need those nuts for the headers.

I'll take some pictures of how beat up stuff was, anything to do with the suspension is totally dead except springs and maybe the sway bar bushings, surprisingly.

I'm actually pretty sure someone tried to fix the root issue, bad ujoints, with a new flex disc and center joint, then realized it was the driveshaft, put it back together and sold it to my dad.

[themusgrat]

So today I have the gaskets and nuts for the exhaust, going to do that. Something has been bothering me, I'm not sure I tightened the guibo bolts/nuts nearly enough. I think I ran them into resistance, then never actually tightened them again, so I guess I need to take it all apart and make sure that is correct. Rookie mistake.

[themusgrat]

Need help again... One of the rtabs is so stuck, I am breaking my rtab tool trying to get it out. Are there any tricks I might not have tried yet? If the original bushings are in there, at 190k miles, do they sometimes need someone with a press to get out? Would soaking it with wd-40 help at all?

From what I can see, most of it wants to come out, but one little area doesn't, so it's placing uneven stress on the tool, and causing it to strip its threads. On a minor note, I got the trailing arm so far down that the spring fell off the car, and at first I was freaked out, like how am I going to get that back in there? But it was fully decompressed, was no issue.

edit: Ok, so I'll try hammering the trailing arm, and I need to grease the threads of the tool... Hopefully that helps a bit. I think I should have already been greasing them? Live and learn.

[scooper]

grease tool threads, spray pb blaster or other penetrant on rtab surfaces, use a chisel to gently break the tension some.

[FiberFast]

Sounds like you are off to a good start, I just finished completing a suspension and brake overhaul and I can tell you that it gets expensive quick. I recommend www.rockauto.com for an excellent source of cost effective parts. For parts such as rubber perch seats ect this would be my go to. They also have some quality parts but use discretion with Uro components, like I said, if its a spring perch or some shit like that paying an extra $30 for a piece of rubber or bushing is stupid when there are 50 components to replace. I have had Uro hoses fail on me withing months of install so buy quality parts for critical places. Replace all the bushings obviously...

[XnWarden]

Pressing the rtab out would probably be easiest. But you can also cut them out, or burn them out with a torch

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[themusgrat]

At this point, it would definitely give me the most pleasure to burn them into nothingness, but before I go buy a torch, I will attempt to press them out once more. I do have the harbor freight ball joint tool, and I think I may be able to wrestle the trailing arm low enough to be able to use it, and an impact wrench. First, I will try greasing the rtab tool threads, and see if that does it. If I have already ruined the tool, on to the harbor freight too, if no bueno, I will drill it out, and as a last resort, buy a torch and pleasure myself in the absolute annihilation of this part which is basically ruining my life.

[themusgrat]

So I thought I'd give some thoughts on the rtab replacement. I ended up with Turner monoballs, and now that they're in, I can tell you that they'd better be the last rtab you ever need, because I doubt they will ever come out.

In the beginning, it was all so innocent... shocks, struts, RSMs, control arms, bushings, sway bar links... Then the Turner RTAB enters.

Anyways, I am pretty certain I had OEM from the factory rtabs still in, at 190k miles. There was no getting those out with the rtab tool I got. I got one that looks identical to the bavauto one off of ebay for $45, and it ended up being absolutely useless. I think it didn't get the old ones out, because the small puller piece is not a wider diameter or equal diameter to the rubber of the bushing, so the edges of the puller pinched the rubber, and even though very old and cracking, essentially compressed and squeezed it in between the trailing arm, the outer metal ring of the rtab, and the puller itself, creating a very nice rubber seal that the puller would need to cut through, to get to where it could actually move the bushing. Made difficult because the puller is beveled a bit on the outer ring edge. I'll post a picture so you can maybe see what I mean. I was stripping the threads rather than moving anything, even after the grease.

IMG_20190827_144033.jpg

IMG_20190827_143939.jpg

So I cut them out using a drill. Yes, the drill messed the trailing arm up a bit, but knowing what I know now, I would not attempt it any other way. I'd maybe give the rtab tool 5 minutes, if the rtabs had ever been changed, then move straight to drilling it out. Drilling it out takes roughly 2 minutes, with my battery powered drill. I will post a picture of what it looked like after drilling, too.

IMG_20190827_143911.jpg

If you do drill them out, you still need to clean up the corrosion, and whether I needed to or not, I filed down the outer edge of the trailing arm receiving cylinder, because of how much trouble I had getting the Turner rtab in.

This was by far the hard part, but I did come up with a solution, after injuring my back trying to press them in with a wrench. First, I'm not sure what is up with the sizing of the Turner rtab, but it is just a little big. Maybe my trailing arm has changed shape/size, but I doubt it. The Turner rtab was not going in at all by hand, and the blue was scraping off evenly around the entire rim, no 1 spot was holding it back.

For the first 1.5 rtabs, I got them in using the harbor freight ball press, which is a magnificent beast. Not easy, because the tool itself doesn't have much clearance, once you add an rtab, the receiving cylinder of the trailing arm, and the pusher/puller bits for the press, but it can be done, with lots of "go for .5cm, swap some stuff out, go another little bit..."

The second rtab was actually breaking my back, so I got pretty mad, frustrated, said some words and stuff, and got the impact wrench (my most useful tool in all of this, by far), and zipped it right up. The impact wrench, with 1200 ft/lbs torque, went slowly, but if you start by hand, then go a little at a time with the impact wrench, it goes on just fine. I don't think anyone's getting it off, but it's now on.

All this to say, the Turner RTAB is just a little big, IMO. It's not going to ever move, so that's a plus, but even after spending 1 hour on each side with a steel brush to clean anything not shiny metal off, and filing down the receiving edge a bit, it would not go on by hand even a little. My advice with the Turner, start it with a pretty serious press, and visually look at it. I found that neither started perfectly straight, but I didn't back anything out, I just took the press tool off, and spent several minutes trying to perfectly align it, and all ended up well. But don't go too far by hand, use the impact wrench to get it on. Would Turner recommend this? I doubt it, but just do it. Also one of their rtabs they sent me had a bit of rust on the sleeve and the inner metal, I am hopeful that is meaningless. I'm sure it is.

Now that all this is done... I have a clunk in the trunk. Might not have tightened the rear sway bar links enough, so that'll be the first thing I check.

Next on the list is change transmission oil, replace the rubber steering coupling (further tighten up steering), maybe the tie rod ends, then start working on the doors. Now that I've read about taking the doors off, and gluing those brackets or whatever on, it seems like a pretty easy fix, which will improve all the rattling around noise. The rear vent windows are horribly sealed, but they want like $150 per door for the rubber seal and the outer bottom gasket? I'll watch for someone having to unload some for cheaper, that's absolute robbery. Once all that is done, time for an oil change again, and I'll do the moly treatment as I do that.

Once again, thank you all who have helped me. First time doing suspension, and it's not that bad (aside from rtab), but it would have been without your help, and the helpful people posting video guides on youtube. You guys are the best!

[themusgrat]

Fixed the clunking. After reading all of the possible clunking culprits... Differential bolt, RSMs not being tight, sway bar links, etc. it was just that the spring itself wasn't seated where it was supposed to be, after all the wrangling the trailing arm around, such an easy fix.

The car now drives really well, I will say that the ride is not what you'd call luxury... But it handles so well. Not sure what the wife will say. I'll sell it as best is my ability.

As I said, I need tires and an alignment, then the transmission fluid, the steering coupling, and mostly I need to do the door panels, but this concludes getting the car from "ready to go to the junkyard or sell for $500," to "it's a really nice driving car."

And I have you guys up there to thank for it, so a heartfelt thank you. It cost more than I wanted it to, but it's way cheaper still than buying another used car with who knows what issues. You guys are great.

[M3AN]

I'm proper loving this thread, for some reason the way your write delights me.

I'm glad (and impressed) you're up and running, well deserved.

You're going to hate to know that you can get RTAB's that come in two halves and slide in from each side...