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Thread: 735iL nightmare issues! solved - rodent damage!

  1. #1
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    735iL nightmare issues! solved - rodent damage!

    Hey there all, new member here.
    Little background, I have had 6 e30s, 2 e28s, 1 e34 and now i'm on my third e32. I have a pretty damn good knowledge of how motronic works and the little quirks these systems have. My first e32 was a 750iL, I loved that car, the M70 was buttery smooth and I really never had any issues with it other than just doing your average general maintenance.

    Move on about 7 years and here we are today, I just picked up this Brokarot metallic 1991 735iL, my favorite color on an e32. I got this car for $350 advertised as running but would die after a couple miles of driving but would restart just fine (lies). I picked up the car and it started right up smooth! I got to driving about 5 miles home and it started misfiring more and more and it eventually died. Upon trying to crank the starter would slow down very fast as if the engine was hydrolocking itself. I got it home and started to diagnose it. While cranking I am getting popping out of the intake, some big some small, and it appears to hydrolock itself or perhaps pre ignition while cranking. I pulled the cap and rotor and the center of both was crazy carboned and black so I replaced them. No change. I had some spare m30b35 parts laying around so I swapped in a good ecu, fuel injectors, CPS and spark plug wires. No change. I started suspecting I had a cam timing issue. Pulled valve cover, no broken rockers and the head was decently clean. Cyl 1 exhaust valve was a little flattened but not gone. Confirmed rotor is pointing to #1 on the cap when piston 1 is at TDC. After I confirmed that I did a compression test.

    1. 115-120 ish
    2. 130
    3. 135
    4. 130
    5. 134
    6. 129

    This was done dry with the cps unplugged.
    After this I reassembled everything and it randomly fired right up! It ran good for about the same amount of time it did the first time, slowly started misfiring again and now i'm back at square one with a no start, popping from the intake and what seems like a hydrolock situation when cranking (pretty convinced its pre ignition).
    I'm very stumped at this whole situation. It seems as if the ecu is retarding or advancing the timing big time for some reason. Any help with this issue I'd really appreciate so much, I've never had an issue like this before.

    Things I've replaced:
    CPS
    Cap and rotor
    Ign coil
    Spark wires
    Fuel injectors
    Afm
    Ecu
    Last edited by Bandit710; 02-21-2019 at 09:27 PM.

  2. #2
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    did you already the fusable links? https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ighlight=links
    Fuel pump pressure o.k.?
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by shogun View Post
    did you already the fusable links? https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ighlight=links
    Fuel pump pressure o.k.?

    Thank you for the link Shogun. I had to get my new battery recharged from all the cranking I was doing trying to troubleshoot. I get it back tomorrow, first thing I'll check is the fusible links. I have a spare fuel pump I can throw in, do you think low fuel pressure could cause this issue?
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  4. #4
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    With the fuel pumps that is always diffcult to say, they all die in a different way, no standard. 2 years ago I had 1 pump seized (was 28 years old and time to die anyway, good Bosch quality) on my 750, the other one was still running. The seized pump quit suddenly, no noise before, nothing. I replaced both at the same time then, then I tested the pumps, I usually do this with engine off, ignition key out of ignition, short wire from B+ pole to the fuse (directly holding it onto the inserted fuse) in the fuse box. Then you can hear the fuel pump running and you hear the fuel pushed thru the FPR back into the return line. And then I noticed suddenly fuel leaks, that told me the pressure of the old fuel pumps was also lower than the brand new ones. So old pumps have less volume and less pressure usually.
    But if your pump runs, at least the engine should run, maybe a bit rough if not enough pressure. Then there are old pumps which do not work from time to time, like they are seized and they are working again.
    So better check the fuel pump plus the fusible link, especially the one inline which goes to the e-box, you can also test with a multimeter at the +post in the e-box if there is full volts. If that fusable link has a haircrack, it might even work from time to time based on the experience of other members.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  5. #5
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    Good to know, thank you. I visually checked the link in the plastic box and it appears good. Where exactly is the e box located? My 735iL has a single fuel pump and not a dual like the 750 correct? I'll probably replace it anyways just because.
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 03:51 AM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  6. #6
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    see here in the ETM http://shark.armchair.mb.ca/~dave/BMW/e32/e32_91.pdf The plus wire goes from the battery to B+ post near the heater valve left rear hand side engine bay and from there to the e-box rear right hand side engine bay where the DME etc are inside. See under component location view page 7100-17
    K201 fuel pump relay
    K202 main relay
    X6400 B+ junction post

    Fuel pump fuse is #23 on your car, there is only one fuel pump in the 735, the fuse is in the fuse box leaft hand rear side engine bay

    I visually checked the link in the plastic box and it appears good
    that is in your case not the one to check, that in the plastic box is for the relays and modules under left driver rear seat. Check the second fusable link whoch goes from battery to engine bay! = the first 2 pics http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/377728/
    you checked now only the one in the 3rd pic.
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 03:28 AM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  7. #7
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    I cut away the shrink tubing and have it exposed now, its too dark to see anything but I will report back with my findings tomorrow. I will cut the insulation away from the link and take a look, as well as check what my voltage is at the x6400 post. If all that checks out I will replace the fuel pump and both relays with known good spares and see if that helps my issue. Thanks a million Shogun.
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 03:52 AM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  8. #8
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    pls use the reply button = scroll down a bit more, not the one "reply with quotes". I now removed the unnecessary quotes.
    In case you want to add pictures, click the button "go advanced" then you can also add pics.
    After you have 10 posts, you do not have to wait till a moderator approves your post manually, that is the forum spam-o-matic to avoid mass spam
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 03:56 AM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  9. #9
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    Red face My two cents and parts car

    If none of that works, check the fuel pressure/flow when it acts up and dies. Maybe clogged fuel filter from a rusty tank? Hmm. Probably the fuel pump though. Spark plugs wet or dry when it acts up? Is spark present or absent when it acts up? I just like to comment. 8-)

    NOTE: There is a 1992 735i here at the parts yard. I need to go take some parts off it. Need anything? VIN# WBAGC4317NDC30572

    Last edited by Narly9999; 02-19-2019 at 09:08 AM. Reason: fun

  10. #10
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    That 1992 735 in the parts yard has some nice/rare options
    S436A Fine wood trim (rare)
    S464A Ski bag (very rare)
    S488A Lumbar support driver and passenger
    S500A Headlight wipe/wash/Intensive cleaning
    S209A Differential lock 25
    S216A Hydro steering servotronic
    S240A Leather steering wheel
    S245A Steering wheel column adjustment electric (super rare)
    S213A Hill Descent Control HDC *

    * = wrong, that S231A was over the years used for several items: S213A Hill descent Control (HDC), S213A Automatic stability control, S214A Automatic stability control (ASC+T) >> for the E32 ASC and/or ASC+T should be correct in this case, hill descent came only in newer models
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  11. #11
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    Sorry, I have not used a forum in a while, still trying to get used to the interface again.

    Narly9999 -
    I will definitely check out the fuel next, I am skeptical however because the plugs are wet with fuel after cranking.
    I'll check to see what the spark is doing the best as I can, I am assuming I am getting some kind of spark because I'm getting fire from the intake manifold.
    it has been a no start situation with this car 90% of the time, not sure why it randomly started up for me again yesterday.
    Appreciate that offer on the parts car but I actually have a 88 735i parts car sitting in my yard that I have been grabbing parts off of, a few minor differences
    because of the year but most everything has been similar if not the same so far.


    Shogun -
    I didn't know you could find options lists from the vin numbers of cars! that's awesome. Would you mind showing me where to do that or decoding my vins for me?
    Too bad I didn't know about some of those rare options. I went and bought some parts from a 740il recently that had a few of those such as
    S436A Fine wood trim (rare)
    S245A Steering wheel column adjustment electric (super rare)
    ^^^
    how hard would that one be to retrofit?

    I did grab an electric rear window shade and button off of the center console, however I doubt I will ever use it because I forgot to grab the wiring.
    It had the rear door window shades as well but one side was broken and the door panels were a different color so I didn't grab them.
    Last edited by Bandit710; 02-19-2019 at 12:46 PM.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  12. #12
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    Did some more testing this morning.
    Tested the voltage on +B in the Ebox and voltage on that post is the same as the voltage at the battery post.
    Also tested the rear fuseable link and results were the same. Both links are good.
    Engine started up just fine again when I connected the newly charged battery this morning and slowly died as expected.
    I observed the voltage at the +B terminal and at the battery itself while it slowly started to misfire and eventually die.
    Voltage started at 13.7 and as the misfire got worse slowly went down to 12.2 when it died. voltage stayed consistent at both tested areas.
    I got it to start back up one more time with some throttle application and at 3000 RPMs voltage went back up to 13.7
    Even holding the RPMs at 3000 it soon started to misfire and died off though. Now it wont start again.
    I pulled both terminals off of the battery and performed a reset while I was in the shower and there is still no start after that.
    I will check fuel pressure when I get home and report back.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  13. #13
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    here is a presently working VIN decoder https://www.mdecoder.com/
    The wood is relatively easy to install, see workshop manual https://www.bmwtechinfo.com/repair/main/
    S245A Steering wheel column adjustment electric (super rare) is probably much more complicated. I have that part here from a parted 11/1993 750iL, but will probably never install it.
    electric rear window shade is relatively easy to install, there are instructions in the BMW EBA https://bmweba.com/
    Usually the toothed wheel inside the electric sunshade breaks and the gear starts to rattle and stops. For that I have special made steel toothed wheels available for sale, see the offer in the E32 classifieds.
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 06:14 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  14. #14
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    Thank you for the link, will be interesting to see what the factory options of my cars are.
    I will inspect the motor for my sunshade before I install it and I will probably order up one of your gears!.
    Any other advice on my no start or anything else I should check while I am out there today?
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  15. #15
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    Main relay and fuel pump relay
    http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/1259287/
    http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/201740/
    http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/457838/
    http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/457017/
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...-Relay-Failure

    E30, E32, E36, E34 no start situation analysis
    From 1991 BMW used a 88 pin DME which was used on 4,6,8 and 12 cylinder engines. Locations
    late E30 below steering column
    E36 left hand fire wall/plenum
    E34 right hand rear corner engine bay
    E32 right hand rear corner engine bay

    If you have a no start situation, check for ignition, injection and fuel pump operation. If none of the above operate then the supplies and earth's as well as the crankshaft trigger inputs need to be tested. Because the E36 has the DME mounted inside the plenum chamber behind the firewall, it is common for it to become water damaged when the plenum chamber drain pipes get blocked and water enters the DME. It is recommended to check these drain pipes when replacing a DME.
    The DME in an E36 can be accessed by removing the plate on the firewall behind the left hand shock tower.

    Power feed circuit
    pin 26 - constant 12v feed from the battery
    pin 54 - power in from DME main relay
    pin 56 - ignition key power, only has power when key on

    When the ignition key is turned on, power is supplied to pin 56. The DME will then supply an earth at pin 27 for the DME main relay to pull in. When this relay pulls in, power is then supplied to pin 54 via the contacts of the relay.
    When the engine is running and the key is turned off, injection and fuel pump stop immediately. After the engine has finally stopped rotating the DME will then stop supplying an earth for the main relay on pin 27. Therefore the relay will open and stop supplying power to pin 54.

    courtesy of http://www.injectronics.com.au/asset...Bulletin45.pdf

    They have some more good tech info like BMW Bosch Motronic DME pinout
    http://www.injectronics.com.au/assets/Uploads/T0066.pdf

    E34/E32 dash cluster language display change
    http://www.injectronics.com.au/assets/Uploads/T0043.pdf

    http://www.injectronics.com.au/techn...ssistance/bmw/
    Last edited by shogun; 02-19-2019 at 09:05 PM.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  16. #16
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    Ran the vins on my 735's

    1988 735i parts car: WBAGB4314J3204690

    S488A Lumbar Driver and Passenger
    S494A Heated Seats Driver and Passenger
    S209A Rear Diff lsd
    S216A Hydro steering Servo tronic
    S240A Leather steering wheel


    1991 735iL: WBAGC4311MDC29240

    S436A Fine wood trim
    S460A Rear seat electric adjustment
    S488A Lumbar driver and passenger
    S494A Seat heater driver and passenger
    S640A Preparation F Telinstallation Universal
    S694A Provisions for BMW 6 CD changer
    S500A Headlight intensive cleaning
    S537A Independent Ventilation control
    S209A Differential lock 25
    S213A Hill descent control HDC
    S216A Hydro servotronic steering
    S240A Leather steering wheel
    S818A Battery master switch What does this one mean?
    S925A VERSANDSCHUTZPAKET Not sure what this one is either.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bandit710 View Post
    S818A Battery master switch What does this one mean?
    That was a switch to turn off the battery. They were installed by the factory in Germany and removed by the dealer before delivery. The idea was that the longshoremen could disconnect the battery easily for the voyage across the Atlantic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bandit710 View Post
    S925A VERSANDSCHUTZPAKET Not sure what this one is either.
    Literally: shipping protection package. Not sure what exactly that meant. Maybe the stuff that was sprayed on the cars back then instead of the plastic foil used today.

  18. #18
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    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  19. #19
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    Cool, too bad they didn't leave them in the cars! would have been a useful tool for long term storage.

    Did more testing.
    Tested and jumpered both the fuel pump and the main relay. Symptoms persist with relays jumpered but I replaced them with known good spares anyhow.
    Also confirmed fuel flow at the rail when it isnt starting. Lots of fuel from the feed and return line. The fuel pump sounds pretty healthy but I will replace it and the fuel filter anyways for good measure. Also replaced the FPR for fun.

    It seems I did the ECU reset improperly the last time, I didnt switch the ignition on while the battery terminals were off and connected. This time when I did the reset after
    connecting the battery it fired up smooth and did its deal before misfiring and eventually dying again. While it was running rough I disconnected the vacuum line to the FPR
    and it seemed like the engine picked up a bit? not sure if this is because the fuel pump isn't providing enough fuel pressure and the FPR being at full pressure bandaged the issue temporarily or maybe introducing a vacuum leak did something. I'm not sure. Either way the fuel pump is gonna get replaced as soon as a new replacement arrives and I can rule out fuel pressure as an issue. Another thing I did was a stomp test, I was getting an intermittent engine light while the engine was idling and misfiring.
    1222 Lambda Control System Bank 1: The ECM has been unable to maintain Lambda (fuel mixture or fuel trim) on Bank 1 (cylinders 1–3) of the engine.
    I got this code I believe yesterday or the day before when I did the stomp test
    1223 Coolant temperature sensor
    This was the code I was getting today intermittently while it was idling.

    Is there anywhere I can do some reading about the adaptions that the ECU makes to engine running parameters? If all else fails and doing the hard reset is the only thing that makes the car run smooth, I would like some information on what could be fooling the ecu to be making changes that are detrimental to making the engine run.

    Edit just kidding, just did another reset and it did nothing. Really hoping its the fuel pump.
    Last edited by Bandit710; 02-19-2019 at 09:13 PM.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  20. #20
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    1222 http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/1261370
    Bentley manual indicates this: Code 1222:Oxygen sensor lean/rich control stop. The corrective action is to check for intake air leaks or reasons for rich mixture.

    more details I posted here https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...rror-code-1222

    1223 Coolant temperature sensor
    This is very important to check too, if the coolant temp sensor for example always sends to the DME a signal that the coolant is cold, the mixture changes to rich.
    temperature resistance at different temperatures http://www.e32-schrauber.de/bmw/s-tempsensor.htm
    NTC blue for temp gauge, temp sensor for DME, also valid for all other 2,5 kOhm-Sensors
    2.5 kohm at 20 degree C http://www.e32-schrauber.de/bmw/date...u-2_5-kohm.png
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  21. #21
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    I know of the coolant temperature sensor for the dme causing issues from my experience with E30s but I have never had one give me this big of an issue! Definitely could be an issue though so I will replace it. I checked for intake leaks and vacuum leaks, there isnt much on an m30 to leak. The vacuum line going to the FPR is fully intact and I can feel vacuum there, the intake boot doesn't have any tears or huge cracks. Brake clean around the intake manifolds gaskets made no change. Another thing is even when it is running smooth it really struggles to make it past 4k rpms even with full throttle it pops when it gets to high rpms. Seems like if I let it sit for a good little while with the battery disconnected it will start up just fine. Another question I have is does the ecu make adaptions for timing as well as for fuel trim?

    Next things on my list:
    Fuel pump
    Fuel filter
    Coolant temp sensor
    New spark plugs
    Check the crank trigger wheel to make sure something isnt wrong with it.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  22. #22
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    Crankshaft position sensor is important. Without working crankshaft position sensor you have problems.
    If the inductive sensor/donut on the plug wire fails then it goes into gang firing, since the m30 is a semi sequential design meaning that it triggers the injectors in 2 banks of 3 every other revolution, when it goes into the gang fire, then it triggers all six at the same time every revolution but decreases the volume of fuel by 50% .
    The M30 fuel pump is originally Bosch and operating pressure is 3 bar, conveying capcity at 12 V 1.9 liter/minute, conveying capacity against counterpressure 875 ccm/30 seconds, Power consumption is 5A.

    The DME (Mo-tronic) controls injection + ignition, which is why they are called digital engine electronics. In contrast, the older Je-tronic, which ONLY controls the injection. The injection duration + the ignition angle are stored in maps and are retrieved depending on the speed and accelerator pedal position, nothing more. Cold running factors, temperature-dependent idle RPM etc. are retrieved from a characteristic curve. The old/vintage M1.1 and M1.3 as well as the one for the M70 = 1.2 and 1.7 Motronic unfortunately can not do more than that.

    Besids the coolant sensor also check the wiring for the sensor, these wires are very thin and break easily.
    M1.1 and M1.3 explained https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ic-1-1-1-3-BMW
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

  23. #23
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    This may sound funny but you didn't say if you checked the valve clearance when you took the valve cover off, check if you didn't how many miles miles on the engine?
    Last edited by shogun; 02-20-2019 at 11:46 PM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed

  24. #24
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    Shogun -
    I am aware of the importance of the CPS, its the most vital information the ecu gets from the engine. I am very certain the sensor I put in the car is a good one.
    One thing I could do is test continuity from the CPS plug to the ecu plug, perhaps I have some sort of weird resistance building up in the wiring somehow, I can check that tomorrow. I am also aware of the batch fire function of the #6 spark plug wire sensor, I didnt know it decreased the fuel volume by 50% though! I have been testing with it connected and sometimes disconnected, doesn't seem to change anything. I am somewhat experienced with L jetronic and D jetronic as well, I used to have a 1975 3.0 Si with D jet and I also used to have a Delorean with the PRV L jet. I really love Bosch fuel injection. I will give the wiring for the coolant temp sensor a good look over and I will check continuity to the ecu plug. Do you think its possible for a transmission fault or maybe an ASC fault to fool the ecu into making the engine not run? I think I saw a transmission fault pop up on the information center one time now that I'm thinking about it. The ASC light does not come on, nor does pressing the button make the light on the dash come on.

    If at worse case scenario, after replacing everything I can think of and nothing works, would it be possible to use the engine wiring harness from my 1988 735 and swap to the cable throttlebody? I would imagine ASC would also have to be deleted and all of the electronic throttle system would have to be removed, as well as cruise control would be inoperable and a whole mess of other headaches. This would be worse case scenario and I would really rather not do this.

    Albmw635 -
    I didn't check with my feeler gauge but I've done so many valve adjustments I have a feel for it, they feel within spec, not too loose and definitely not too tight. When the engine is running the valves are dead quiet so I'm not too concerned about them. The car has 174,000 miles.
    Last edited by Bandit710; 02-21-2019 at 01:04 AM.
    1972 2500 RHD "bavaria" restomod project
    1974 2002 daily driver project
    1988 TCD turbo e28
    1989 325iX rally car
    1991 735iL newest project.

  25. #25
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    I assume with an ASC fault the engine would also start. I once had a broken ASC wire and the engine started, but the warning light was on.
    Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!

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