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Thread: obd1 tuning

  1. #1
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    obd1 tuning

    I don't really understand the whole "chip tuning" thing and am skeptical of remote tunes or standard "tunes"..
    They must just get your map close and then use a lot of EGO correction to work on your specific engine or self tune like adaptations or something unless you are going to send logs back and forth to your tuner many times to really get your tune good..

    What are the obd1 chip tune options and what do they cost? How exactly does this work?
    You need to buy a new "tune" every time you make some changes on your setup?

    I see the WAR chip option that lets you self tune but how powerful is it compared to something like tunerstudio?
    What are these "tuners" using for software to flash the tunes they sell?

    What sort of "tunes" work for a 400-500 HP turbo S50 and how does it work?
    With all of the variables of how I could build a turbo system I don't understand how some standard "tune" is going to work more than marginally well unless it's just to get close, setup your sensors, and then mostly self learn from there..

    When do you need a bigger MAF?
    Can you blow through the OEM MAF @ even like 5psi on the OEM tune just to get the kinks hammered out of a custom turbo system?


    What are the most basic megasquirt options to run these engines?
    You would have to fire 6cyl COP and control Vanos and I haven't really looked into trying to tune Vanos but it sounds complex to do standalone compared to what I understand about the OEM Vanos tune not being simple at all..

    I understand all the concepts of a physical turbo system pretty well but not all this obd1 remote chip tuning stuff and standalone Vanos stuff..

    Could you explain it a bit for me?
    Last edited by fasteddie313; 02-17-2019 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #2
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    I went with 22rpd for my tuning. He sent me a chip along with his MAF sensor and wiring instruction. I used 80lb injectors and E85 fuel. The first tune had the car running smooth but at higher RPM would go lean, so he fixed that and now all is well.
    1997 BMW ///M3 - Estoril Sedan 5MT - M-Rain Interior (1 of 1)
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
    I don't really understand the whole "chip tuning" thing and am skeptical of remote tunes or standard "tunes"..
    They must just get your map close and then use a lot of EGO correction to work on your specific engine or self tune like adaptations or something unless you are going to send logs back and forth to your tuner many times to really get your tune good..There should be a lot of back and fourth to dial it into your specific setup. Though, MAF tunes are much more "transferable" than other tunes, if they were made with very accurate MAF scaling and accurate injector data.

    What are the obd1 chip tune options and what do they cost? How exactly does this work? Go with someone reputable, use a WAR chip, or rom tune it yourself. Stay away from generic Ebay crap with no support/revision capability

    You need to buy a new "tune" every time you make some changes on your setup? Depends on the answers above

    I see the WAR chip option that lets you self tune but how powerful is it compared to something like tunerstudio? Tunerstudio is for megasquirt. You may mean Tunerpro. Tunerpro is only as good as the definition file (XDF) that you are using or have developed. The challenge is not only locating and identifying all the variables, but understanding how they come into play for ignition and fueling calculation
    What are these "tuners" using for software to flash the tunes they sell? You just install a new chip. To live tune you need an emulator.

    What sort of "tunes" work for a 400-500 HP turbo S50 and how does it work? WAR chip isnt perfect but ive seen some pretty good running cars in this power range with it.

    With all of the variables of how I could build a turbo system I don't understand how some standard "tune" is going to work more than marginally well unless it's just to get close, setup your sensors, and then mostly self learn from therre? There really isnt any self learn to these ecu's in the danger zone (ie boost). They only have narrowband o2 and want stoich when driving around town. WOT or anything that would bring you into boost would be open loop. Timing learns from the knock sensors but they shouldnt be relied on as a tuning tool.

    When do you need a bigger MAF?
    Can you blow through the OEM MAF @ even like 5psi on the OEM tune just to get the kinks hammered out of a custom turbo system?


    What are the most basic megasquirt options to run these engines? I run a MSII.
    You would have to fire 6cyl COP and control Vanos and I haven't really looked into trying to tune Vanos but it sounds complex to do standalone compared to what I understand about the OEM Vanos tune not being simple at all..I run factory coils with MS with a igniter circuit I built. VANOS is stupid simple, its just an on/off signal. Setup an accessory output and have it go low/high based on load and rpm conditions.

    I understand all the concepts of a physical turbo system pretty well but not all this obd1 remote chip tuning stuff and standalone Vanos stuff..

    Could you explain it a bit for me?

    See answers above in red.

    I much prefer swapping to MS41 and be done with it. Easier to tune, good data logging, runs like a stock car but makes any HP you can throw at it. Many cheap MAF options. Custom code in development. Can add MAP sensor to it as another logging parameter, etc.

    The only reason my e36 is megasquirt is because its all I knew when I built the car years ago. All the bmws I do going forward are mainly stock obd2 ecus

  4. #4
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    There should be a lot of back and fourth to dial it into your specific setup. Though, MAF tunes are much more "transferable" than other tunes, if they were made with very accurate MAF scaling and accurate injector data.
    That does make sense that MAF tunes are much more transferable because with a MAF you are directly measuring the amount of air the engine is consuming rather than predicting the amount of air the engine is consuming with speed density.. With a MAF if you change the actual VE of your engine it would still just accurately measure airflow but tuning from a MAP for example if you got your head ported it would eat much more air at the same MAP value so it would need to be drastically retuned..

    Go with someone reputable, use a WAR chip, or rom tune it yourself. Stay away from generic Ebay crap with no support/revision capability
    I am interested in the WAR chip option or "rom" tuning it myself but I don't even know what "rom" tuning means really.. I need to do more research on these chip ECUs.

    Tunerstudio is for megasquirt. You may mean Tunerpro. Tunerpro is only as good as the definition file (XDF) that you are using or have developed.
    No, I meant tunerstudio because that is really the only tuning solution I have been studying and am mostly fimiliar with.
    Is tunerpro a software for tuning these chips?

    The challenge is not only locating and identifying all the variables, but understanding how they come into play for ignition and fueling calculation
    I think I have a decent understanding of what data from sensors an ECU needs to make informed decisions and why.. I don't know the exact algorithms or anything but I get the logic of most of the variables such as pressure, tempature, RPM, O2, etc.. I am a beginner tuner in general and weak on the MAF front and ignition front but I understand quite a lot of the logic behind it.

    You just install a new chip. To live tune you need an emulator.
    What exactly is an emulator? Is it something that lets you plug into and see/tune realtime and log like you would with Megasquirt?
    You can't really even log with on obd1 chip ECU can you? With an obd1 chip ECU you would basically HAVE to dyno to get a dyno log with your wideband O2 results and then tune off of your dyno log like you would with logworks correct?

    I don't want to have to go to a dyno. I want to be able to log. I want a wideband. I want to be able to change my tune at any time and it not cost me anything for every change.

    WAR chip isnt perfect but ive seen some pretty good running cars in this power range with it.
    What about it isn't perfect? What are its cons? Can you log with it? Can you log wideband with it? Can you watch and/or tune live with it?

    I run a MSII
    I run factory coils with MS with a igniter circuit I built.
    MS2 has only 2 ign outs so you would have to expand it for a 3rd ign out to run a 6cyl in wasted spark mode right? Is your ignitor circuit just to ignite the coils or is it some trickery to run a 6cyl?
    Like I said, I am weaker on ignition and not sure what it takes to run a 6cyl ignition off of a smaller MS..


    VANOS is stupid simple, its just an on/off signal. Setup an accessory output and have it go low/high based on load and rpm conditions.
    So you just make a map like a VE table and put ON/OFF in whatever boxes you want the Vanos to kick on/off in? From what I've read the OEM Vanos tune sounds like black magic that is quite unpredictable of exactly when Vanos is used based on many parameters.
    A pretty basic Vanos tune just based on load and RPM works pretty good? With a MAF I guess load is air intake as a percentage of VE?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gmfwd View Post

    I much prefer swapping to MS41 and be done with it. Easier to tune, good data logging, runs like a stock car but makes any HP you can throw at it. Many cheap MAF options. Custom code in development. Can add MAP sensor to it as another logging parameter, etc.

    The only reason my e36 is megasquirt is because its all I knew when I built the car years ago. All the bmws I do going forward are mainly stock obd2 ecus
    MS41 is an obd2 ecu that is quite tuner-friendly right? Would that be something to do to an obd1 car?
    What can/can't it do? compared to megasquirt? Can add wideband as a logging parameter?


    What about would an obd1 chip/emulator/rom setup that can be self tuned and logged cost compared to a more basic megasquirt setup?

    What I'm trying to understand basically is obd1 tuning options, pros, cons and cost, compared to going with megasquirt..
    Can you tune/log obd1 with the right setup like you can megasquirt, yes/no and at what cost and advantages/drawbacks?

    Will obd1 tuned just for MAF and injector calculations really just eat anything no matter what you do to your head, intake (besides the MAF area), intercooler, change turbos, header, exhaust downpipe and back, plumbing efficiencies, etc?
    It just knows you are in boost because your engine is eating more air than it should at that RPM so it knows when to drop your AFRs?

    Thanks for your replies guys!
    Last edited by fasteddie313; 03-01-2019 at 02:25 PM.
    E36 M3 S50 - E53 X5 M54 - 1980 Porsche 931 - 2001 Impreza RS25

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fasteddie313 View Post
    There should be a lot of back and fourth to dial it into your specific setup. Though, MAF tunes are much more "transferable" than other tunes, if they were made with very accurate MAF scaling and accurate injector data.
    That does make sense that MAF tunes are much more transferable because with a MAF you are directly measuring the amount of air the engine is consuming rather than predicting the amount of air the engine is consuming with speed density.. With a MAF if you change the actual VE of your engine it would still just accurately measure airflow but tuning from a MAP for example if you got your head ported it would eat much more air at the same MAP value so it would need to be drastically retuned..

    Go with someone reputable, use a WAR chip, or rom tune it yourself. Stay away from generic Ebay crap with no support/revision capability
    I am interested in the WAR chip option or "rom" tuning it myself but I don't even know what "rom" tuning means really.. I need to do more research on these chip ECUs.
    ROM is read only memory. All ecm's work this way. What I mean by ROM tuning is you will be editing actual hex values in the binary file to make changes to how your engine runs. Its a long learning curve. Read up on it and see if your interested. Its a dying breed. The WAR chip makes this a more user fieindly, high level process

    Tunerstudio is for megasquirt. You may mean Tunerpro. Tunerpro is only as good as the definition file (XDF) that you are using or have developed.
    No, I meant tunerstudio because that is really the only tuning solution I have been studying and am mostly fimiliar with.
    Is tunerpro a software for tuning these chips
    TunerPro is a glorified hex editor that makes your values into tables and human readable numbers.

    The challenge is not only locating and identifying all the variables, but understanding how they come into play for ignition and fueling calculation
    I think I have a decent understanding of what data from sensors an ECU needs to make informed decisions and why.. I don't know the exact algorithms or anything but I get the logic of most of the variables such as pressure, tempature, RPM, O2, etc.. I am a beginner tuner in general and weak on the MAF front and ignition front but I understand quite a lot of the logic behind it.
    I mean how the bosch/motronic ecu actuallu works... its not like a aftermarket ECU where you can call a tech line and ask them when a certain table comes into play. Reverse engineering a factory ecu takes days and days of playing around, unless you can get good help from someone expereinced with them

    You just install a new chip. To live tune you need an emulator.
    What exactly is an emulator? Is it something that lets you plug into and see/tune realtime and log like you would with Megasquirt?
    You can't really even log with on obd1 chip ECU can you? With an obd1 chip ECU you would basically HAVE to dyno to get a dyno log with your wideband O2 results and then tune off of your dyno log like you would with logworks correct?
    An emulator is like a eeprom that is directly connected to your computer, that you can change in real time so you dont need to burn a chip for each change you make. It speeds up the tuning process. OBD1 datalogging sucks typically

    I don't want to have to go to a dyno. I want to be able to log. I want a wideband. I want to be able to change my tune at any time and it not cost me anything for every change.

    WAR chip isnt perfect but ive seen some pretty good running cars in this power range with it.
    What about it isn't perfect? What are its cons? Can you log with it? Can you log wideband with it? Can you watch and/or tune live with it?
    You dont have access to every parameter that may be needed to calibrate your car as good as you may want. I dont know much about the logging capabilties of it

    I run a MSII
    I run factory coils with MS with a igniter circuit I built.
    MS2 has only 2 ign outs so you would have to expand it for a 3rd ign out to run a 6cyl in wasted spark mode right? Is your ignitor circuit just to ignite the coils or is it some trickery to run a 6cyl?
    Like I said, I am weaker on ignition and not sure what it takes to run a 6cyl ignition off of a smaller MS..
    I run 6 ign drivers off 3 channels, making 6cyl wasted spark. For a track car like mine it does the job


    VANOS is stupid simple, its just an on/off signal. Setup an accessory output and have it go low/high based on load and rpm conditions.
    So you just make a map like a VE table and put ON/OFF in whatever boxes you want the Vanos to kick on/off in? From what I've read the OEM Vanos tune sounds like black magic that is quite unpredictable of exactly when Vanos is used based on many parameters.
    A pretty basic Vanos tune just based on load and RPM works pretty good? With a MAF I guess load is air intake as a percentage of VE?
    You are overthinking it. OEM vanos tune considers emissions, etc. All you need is load and rpm to set a good vanos switch point


    MS41 is an obd2 ecu that is quite tuner-friendly right? Would that be something to do to an obd1 car?
    I wouldnt say quite tuner friendly, but to some it is. To me its really easy to tune but there is a huge learning curve to tuning factory dme's. Much more difficult than say, a megasquirt. Support is limited to small online communities
    What can/can't it do? compared to megasquirt? Can add wideband as a logging parameter?
    It controls the engine as any other dme would. It lacks most features that you wouldnt find on a stock car like boost control, antilag, etc. This does not mean you cant have these features with MS41 however, you just need to put the work on


    What about would an obd1 chip/emulator/rom setup that can be self tuned and logged cost compared to a more basic megasquirt setup?
    I get a used megasquirt for like 150 bucks so its a no brainer to go standalone, if it fits your needs

    What I'm trying to understand basically is obd1 tuning options, pros, cons and cost, compared to going with megasquirt..
    Can you tune/log obd1 with the right setup like you can megasquirt, yes/no and at what cost and advantages/drawbacks?
    No. It will never be as easy as MS

    Will obd1 tuned just for MAF and injector calculations really just eat anything no matter what you do to your head, intake (besides the MAF area), intercooler, change turbos, header, exhaust downpipe and back, plumbing efficiencies, etc?
    It just knows you are in boost because your engine is eating more air than it should at that RPM so it knows when to drop your AFRs?
    It doesnt "Know" anything about boost. It doesnt have a map sensor., its all just airflow at the end of the day. You will have this same issue with MS41.

    Thanks for your replies guys!

    I see the gears turning in your head. I think a megasquirt will do everything you want, for a nice price, and minimum time spent learning/screwing around. If you do choose to go with an OEM dme, just be prepared to be staring at things for hours and hours. its a commitment.

    OEM dme's retain all the nice bmw things however, like cruise control, traction control, etc. If these things are important to you that may sway your decision.

  6. #6
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    "Its a dying breed."
    See, this is something I don't really want to get into again. I really like learning things, even obscure things, but I think it is wiser for me to learn things that are more relevant and more common because the education will be more useful to me in the long run.
    I put a huge amount of effort into learning CIS and tuning CIS, but though I have enjoyed it, and it has brought me a good mechanical understanding of what an engine tune needs, it is mostly useless knowledge outside of a couple very small circles..
    A part of me wants to do a modern LS project next mostly for the very relevant education that would come along with it..

    I think continuing to learn MegaSquirt would be the best for me if I do a BMW project because what I learn would translate very well to most other standalone EM systems and tuning the more modern factory ECUs.
    Last edited by fasteddie313; 03-05-2019 at 03:13 PM.
    E36 M3 S50 - E53 X5 M54 - 1980 Porsche 931 - 2001 Impreza RS25

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