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Thread: Camber problems

  1. #1
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    Camber problems

    Howdy folks, just did a bit of a suspension refresh, and thought I would get smart by replacing my thrust arms with Wokke’s e31 arms w/ spherical bearings in place of the traditional bushings. I also replaced my lower control arms with the spherical e31 arms, and moved the mounting point to the outer hole. I have read that this will give me some negative camber, improve handling etc etc. Also at this time I put in the AKG 1” bump steer spacer.

    Afterwards my alignment looked screwy to me, so I went down and got it aligned this morning, guy fixed my toe, no hiccups. I got my readings, and my camber is now at -3.4 degrees on both sides about on the fronts, and is pretty visible. Car drives a bit squirrely now, although keep in mind I have CRAP tires. Real bad, new pilot sports on order for new mpars. Current wheels are also 18s off an e60.

    My main concern is during hard right hand turns, like from a stop sign, the car continues to want to turn right, so I have to fight it a bit to correct. Going left it easily returns to center. Also I feel as though my turning radius has been reduced, as full lock doesnÂ’t seemed to go as far. I know very little about steering dynamics, but would the increased camber be to blame? I feel itÂ’s a bit excessive at over 3 degrees, and if so, would there be any way to keep my e31 thrust arms and just move the lower control arm back to the inner hole? Or would this have adverse effects? I still have my original thrust arms if I need to swap them back in for the meantime.

    I need to get this sorted before I get the new tires, as to not have any unnecessary wear. Also would love to have my more predictable steering back, as driving the car as is makes for a less enjoyable experience. But man does it ever feel responsive... Thanks in advance, sorry for another essay
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  2. #2
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    What happens if you move the lower control arms to the inner mounting hole ? I have no experience with those lower control arms so I have no idea, was there any literature that tells you what would happen ? Maybe you need to get camber plates to adjust it ? Over negative 3 camber is a little crazy, I run just over negative 2 camber in my e36 m3.. so over negative 3 in an e34 is just a smidge :sarcastic: unnecessary in my opinion.
    Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel! ... oder Steine, Hauptsache er trifft.

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  3. #3
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    yea putting the control arms on the outer bolts is only recomended for drift cars. IIRC you also need the e32 rear arm which is longer. Youre for sure having compromised suspension geometry causing those issues and id strongly recomend going back to what it should be and doing a lot of research (not just on e34s) before trying something like this again

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neel View Post
    What happens if you move the lower control arms to the inner mounting hole ? I have no experience with those lower control arms so I have no idea, was there any literature that tells you what would happen ? Maybe you need to get camber plates to adjust it ? Over negative 3 camber is a little crazy, I run just over negative 2 camber in my e36 m3.. so over negative 3 in an e34 is just a smidge :sarcastic: unnecessary in my opinion.
    The idea is that the e31/e32 upper thrust arms are physically longer than e34 ones, and to compensate you move the lower control arm to the outside hole so as not to preload the thrust arm bushing. Except now that bushing has been replaced with a spherical bearing( so maybe this issue is moot?) The lower control arms are the same length e34/e31/e32 as far as I know. Moving it back to the inner hole would reduce my negative camber back to stock levels I believe (maybe not quite stock with the bump steer plates in there).

    So the new question would be can I put the lower control arms back in the inner hole without compromising the longevity of the thrust arm? Or like you said Neel, spend some $$$ on camber plates and keep the hardware I have (else wise I would have to sell the e31 thrust arms to grab some e34 sized ones)

    I got a thumbs up today from a slammed Silvia, so you don’t need to tell me 3 is unnecessary lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hofmeister View Post
    yea putting the control arms on the outer bolts is only recomended for drift cars. IIRC you also need the e32 rear arm which is longer. Youre for sure having compromised suspension geometry causing those issues and id strongly recomend going back to what it should be and doing a lot of research (not just on e34s) before trying something like this again
    e31 and e32 rear arm (thrust arm, upper control arm, whatever) are the same length, so did that. I did the research on this before but no one gave any numbers just “Do this to increase camber”. I’m ready to leave stance nation...
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  5. #5
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    Start with the cheapest solution, move it to the inner holes and see what happens. LMAO on the slammed silvia.. just to clear the air, my m3 is not stanced, it is built to corner.
    Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel! ... oder Steine, Hauptsache er trifft.

    88 Alpineweiss / black E30 M3 -Project.
    Brilliantrot / black US SPEC 3/90 prod e34 M30b35 535i 5spd - Modded.
    98.5 Tiag Silber /black e36 m3 - Modded.
    99.5 Estoril Blau /dove e36 m3 - Modded.
    07 Crimsonrot /black E83 X3 6spd - Stock..

  6. #6
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    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
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    Not to be too hard on ya, but I read, "I replaced my front suspension with parts designed for another car, and now it won't drive right and it looks at home with the stanceposer/dorifoto crowd. What did I do wrong?"



    If the thrust arms have a spherical bearing, they'll be fine at the different angle caused by using the inner hole for the lower arms, but the wheels will sit further forward, and your steering will be screwy to some extent because of changes to Ackerman geometry.

    Ireland Engineering adjustable camber plates maxed out at -1.7 degrees, plenty for the improved steering response I was after.

    Sell the E31/E32 hardware to someone with an E32 or E31. Buy E34 hardware for your E34 unless you know what to expect from non-stock parts. IE plates are one of several front camber solutions. BMW factory strut mounts are another (fixed -1.0). Modifying the strut towers or subframe is a third. -3 degrees is ridiculous and I'm surprised that you're surprised that ithe car drives wrong.
    Last edited by moroza; 02-06-2019 at 10:30 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by moroza View Post
    Not to be too hard on ya, but I read, "I replaced my front suspension with parts designed for another car, and now it won't drive right and it looks at home with the stanceposer/dorifoto crowd. What did I do wrong?"

    I’ll take the flak, the more I do on this car the more I learn, so even in error it’s a lesson, to be 100 percent cliche about it all. I’ll try moving the control arm to the inner hole, and report back. Then that way I can drive the car until I have a buyer lined up for the arms and get my new arms. Thanks for the help!
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  8. #8
    moroza's Avatar
    moroza is offline MORΩN ΛABIA BMW CCA Member
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    You may or may not have undrivable amounts of tire/fender rubbing, but sure, give it a shot.

  9. #9
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    I made this mistake with my car too. The E31 lower arms work for our cars but the E31 upper arms will mess up your caster. When I put them in my car it ruined my turning radius and made the steering vague as well as moved the tires forward enough they would sometimes rub. I switched back to E34 thrust arms with spherical bearings and it was awesome. Just lookup detroit axle and buy the E34 thrust arms, they're cheap and a reputable suspension company. It'll make a world of difference

  10. #10
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    Why do so many assume the handling and steering of a tired twenty something year old car is how they were intended?
    So many posts about disappointments trying to outdo some very good engineering rather than properly refresh a very competent chassis.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  11. #11
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    Moving to the outer holes removes caster as said, which makes your steering feel dead and it won't return after a turn

  12. #12
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    Okay went back to stock arms and holes and all is well. However I figured I could just add this here instead of making a new thread.

    Bought Pilot Sport 4 S tires for 18” staggered M parallels. 235/40/18 fronts 265/35/18 rears. Costco could not install them, said they could not get the bead to go and that the tires are too stiff to get them on. What did I do wrong? Going to attempt a different Costco tire center tomorrow, as I bought these with the 1 cent installation promotion.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by theBMWbeast View Post
    What did I do wrong?
    You had faith that Cosco had the necessary expertise. They don't. A professional wheel shop will be able to mount them. I had my Pilots mounted on my style 5's at such a place and they had no problems whatsoever.

    I've heard that sometimes with extra wide wheels you mount the tires with the wheel upside down. Not sure if that's true or not.
    demet

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by demetk View Post
    You had faith that Cosco had the necessary expertise. They don't. A professional wheel shop will be able to mount them. I had my Pilots mounted on my style 5's at such a place and they had no problems whatsoever.

    I've heard that sometimes with extra wide wheels you mount the tires with the wheel upside down. Not sure if that's true or not.
    Thats incorrect, i was working for the last 5 years at a high performance shop and have installed 375s before. What you describe is a reverse drop wheel. All wheels have a "drop center" which you push the bead into to wiggle enough to get it past the lip. Usually large lip wheels or those with flat lips will be reverse mount to hide this bend and make a better looking wheel.

    That said yes what beast did wrong was buying tires that cost more than his car and mounting them at costco. in my experience pilot sports of any kind are the best mounting and balancing tires and give great roadforce numbers. all pilot sports are really soft compared to typical tires, makes them easier to bend to mount too. My guess is they just dont know how to use their machines and get by mounting regular profile tires every day, which you can literally mount without a machine.

  15. #15
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    Thanks for confirming my suspicions guys, and for the record they only cost half of what I paid for the car

    Ill get them mounted elsewhere and finally get to enjoy this refreshed suspension.
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