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Thread: Timing chain guides first start cel

  1. #26
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    You might be onto something with the Vanos, Zoz. A 'lazy' vanos due to oil leakage would cause a retarded code for that bank.
    You could try and move the trigger wheel slightly advanced clockwise a mm or two and retry.
    It's a bit finicky, as George will attest.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldroller View Post
    It's a bit finicky, as George will attest.
    Lol, I 've spent like two months adjusting that damn wheel But no errors anymore so worth it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldroller View Post
    You might be onto something with the Vanos, Zoz. A 'lazy' vanos due to oil leakage would cause a retarded code for that bank.
    You could try and move the trigger wheel slightly advanced clockwise a mm or two and retry.
    It's a bit finicky, as George will attest.
    Back together again same code engine is sounding strong. I will Try to adjust trigger wheel when I go back in. Strange though I ran a data stream every time checking adaption angles bank 2 is -1 -2 -4 -2. Bank 1 at first was -5 -3 -2 -3 after I re-timed twice both times I got -20 -20 -20- -20. Any thoughts as to what this means? Bank two stayed the same.
    Last edited by Zoz740i; 02-08-2019 at 10:20 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoz740i View Post
    Back together again same code engine is sounding strong. I will Try to adjust trigger wheel when I go back in. Strange though I ran a data stream every time checking adaption angles bank 2 is -1 -2 -4 -2. Bank 1 at first was -5 -3 -2 -3 after I re-timed twice both times I got -20 -20 -20- -20. Any thoughts as to what this means? Bank two stayed the same.
    I havent seen any official number where it should be, some claims it should be in -15 & +15 range to avoid errors. i think it's within the -10 & +10.
    But to make it even worse, when I finally got it down below 5 the error message still stayed on for a while and after a few days it disappeared for good. I have no good explanation why.
    Below some photos for reference of my two months adventure of fixing it.

    DSC06911.jpg
    DSC06916.jpg
    DSC06921.jpgDSC06945.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by georgebest; 02-09-2019 at 02:54 PM.

  5. #30
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    DSC06947.jpg

    - - - Updated - - -

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    I havent seen any official number where it should be, some claims it should be in -15 & +15 range to avoid errors. i think it's within the -10 & +10.
    But to make it even worse, when I finally got it down below 5 the error message still stayed on for a while and after a few days it disappeared for good. I have no good explanation why.
    Below some photos for reference of my two months adventure of fixing it.

    DSC06911.jpg
    DSC06916.jpg
    DSC06921.jpgDSC06945.jpg
    Thanks for the info looks like you were meticulous in your efforts pic 4 is the exact code I'm getting also so tweaking the trigger wheel is all you did or did you re-time also? Are your pics from bank 2?

  7. #32
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    Just went on a test drive 15 miles or so the car ran well but it did feel lacking in low torque power ran a scan before here's what I got.
    IMG_20190209_123008.jpg. IMG_20190209_123338.jpg IMG_20190209_123359.jpg IMG_20190209_123415.jpg
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #33
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    Yes, I had it in bank 2.
    I think 20 is the maximum value you can get so yours is way off. You need to get that number below 10 or probably below 5.
    What happens when you put a bit thru the inspection hole? Does it line up? See below:

    DSC06890.jpg

  9. #34
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    I'm looking at this picture of yours. I'm not 100% sure cause hard to see but your wheel looks way off and also perhaps bent a bit? Better quality photo would help.

    IMG_20190208_150029.jpg

    It's not too expensive if you need a new one: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...el-11361438658
    Last edited by georgebest; 02-09-2019 at 07:22 PM.

  10. #35
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    by the way, I have also started out with -20

    Attachment 645399

  11. #36
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    Another day another re-time. Same result "P0012 cam over-retard". Thinking it might've been the Vanos gear the solenoid or the Cam sensor I have swapped all three, no change. Same code.Car starts up fine a slight rough idle but still drives great took it on a few quarter mile Sprints for old time sakes I miss those days car has great acceleration but can't get that code to clear. I'm certain i timed it right i I'm using g.a.s timing kit. Check and changed the trigger wheel thru port it went thru perfectly when I retarded the cam. Everything torqued to specs no leaks. I been scouring the web for any info as the E38 rarely presents this code after a guide job. A cam over advance is more likely. Could Oil pressure play a role with this code maybe a clogged check valve seeing how it seems he be stuck in the retarded position? something is interrupting the advance cycle

  12. #37
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    Clogged or stuck check valve behind the solenoid is a possibility, easy enough to pull and check it.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldroller View Post
    Clogged or stuck check valve behind the solenoid is a possibility, easy enough to pull and check it.
    How is it done? Yesterday during my tear down I took off the Vanos and tried to clean the check valve i read there is a special tool to remove it so I didn't try

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoz740i View Post
    How is it done? Yesterday during my tear down I took off the Vanos and tried to clean the check valve i read there is a special tool to remove it so I didn't try
    You just need a long, 10 mm bolt to screw in and pull it out. Super easy.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    You just need a long, 10 mm bolt to screw in and pull it out. Super easy.
    Thanks George. can I pull it and clean it or should I the it?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    I havent seen any official number where it should be, some claims it should be in -15 & +15 range to avoid errors. i think it's within the -10 & +10.
    But to make it even worse, when I finally got it down below 5 the error message still stayed on for a while and after a few days it disappeared for good. I have no good explanation why.
    Below some photos for reference of my two months adventure of fixing it.

    DSC06911.jpg
    DSC06916.jpg
    DSC06921.jpgDSC06945.jpg


    Just wondering George looking over your photos and seeing the code you pulled was "21" bank one side same and only code I pull but you said your issue was bank 2 if I'm saying this correctly retiming bank 2 solved your issue as I have only been retiming bank one.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoz740i View Post
    Just wondering George looking over your photos and seeing the code you pulled was "21" bank one side same and only code I pull but you said your issue was bank 2 if I'm saying this correctly retiming bank 2 solved your issue as I have only been retiming bank one.
    Good question, I'm not sure why the error shows bank 1 while my issues were clearly on bank 2 as you can see below:

    DSC06917 (1).jpg

    I have never touched bank 1, only got the angle numbers below 5 on bank 2 and that's when the error disappeared.

    Your problem is on bank 1 for sure. I still think that you need to adjust the timing wheel, even when it's perfectly aligned with the inspection hole. You seen my photo, it was perfectly aligned and I still got -20.
    I would move your wheel counter clockwise approx 5mm and see what angle number you gets then. That's what seemed to work for many E39 owners and solved my problem too. It is super sensitive, make sure you mark it properly before starting to adjust it and don't do too much adjustments, aim for 5mm only.
    The good news is that you dont need to remove the upper timing cover for the job. I could this in my sleep now, it took me so many adjustments to get it below 5. Below 10 should be supposedly enough.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgebest View Post
    Good question, I'm not sure why the error shows bank 1 while my issues were clearly on bank 2 as you can see below:

    DSC06917 (1).jpg

    I have never touched bank 1, only got the angle numbers below 5 on bank 2 and that's when the error disappeared.

    Your problem is on bank 1 for sure. I still think that you need to adjust the timing wheel, even when it's perfectly aligned with the inspection hole. You seen my photo, it was perfectly aligned and I still got -20.
    I would move your wheel counter clockwise approx 5mm and see what angle number you gets then. That's what seemed to work for many E39 owners and solved my problem too. It is super sensitive, make sure you mark it properly before starting to adjust it and don't do too much adjustments, aim for 5mm only.
    The good news is that you dont need to remove the upper timing cover for the job. I could this in my sleep now, it took me so many adjustments to get it below 5. Below 10 should be supposedly enough.
    Thanks for the info Georgebest will do.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoz740i View Post
    Thanks for the info Georgebest will do.
    I'm looking at my old photos, it seems that I moved counter clockwise approx 7mm first and that moved it from -20 to +12, so probably aim only to around 3 mm first and see what happens.
    This is the best I could do: +2

    DSC06944.jpg
    Last edited by georgebest; 02-12-2019 at 09:17 PM.

  20. #45
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    The intake cam will spring forward due to the VANOS. Get your 21mm wrench on that cam and restart it back as far as it will go.

    place the GAS blocks on and post a photo, even if they don’t fit all the way, just make sure the aft part of the blocks is on the square portion of the cams so we can see actual cam position. Can’t do that visually since the cams are not actually square with the head when timed correctly.

    Vanos moving in in and out slightly is normal, supposed to do that. VANOS will not cause timing codes, it will produce VANOS codes.

    Oops, late to the party, did not see page 2. Not a fan of moving the trigger wheel to delete codes. Start from the beginning, retime both sides as per the GAS instructions, spin it by hand several times and retime each complete revolution, when the retime lines up perfect at least 2 times, button it up and away you go.

    I feel your pain though, I replaced the guides on my sons 540 about 6 months ago and still cannot get rid of a pesky cam sensor bank 1 code, and retired mine three times, rebuilt VANOS, got new trigger wheel, and now tracing wires to find anything wrong.
    Last edited by kouks; 02-14-2019 at 12:17 PM.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouks View Post
    Not a fan of moving the trigger wheel to delete codes. Start from the beginning, retime both sides as per the GAS instructions, spin it by hand several times and retime each complete revolution, when the retime lines up perfect at least 2 times, button it up and away you go.
    I think nobody is a fan of this method, but there seems to be no other solution for some engines. This has been discussed at length in the E39 forums, nobody really has an explanation why this few mm adjustment is needed, including people who has done over 15 TCG jobs and do this professionally. I am 100% sure I did everything right, redone the timing multiple times. I probably hold the world record of doing the timing job the most time on the same M62TU engine
    Still the error stayed there. I have also tried multiple timing tools, they made no difference at all.

    I actually have my own theory why this is happening to DIYs like us, but I could never put it to the test. It's as good as anybody's guess:

    When you compare the genuine BMW timing tools and every other M62 timing tools on the market, including even the expensive BAUM ones, there is one piece missing (actually two):
    None of them includes the BMW 112443 & 112444 tools as shown here: https://www.amazon.ca/Zdmak-112443-T.../dp/B00YAJBGWS

    My theory is that if you are not using 112443 & 112444 the timing banks could move a mm or even a fraction of a mm when torquing the camshafts and causing eventually the wheel being "off" 1-3mm, even when the wheel is not really off as confirmed via the inspection hole. I bought these tools but my error disappeared before I could try them (thankfully).

    Again, this is just a theory, I could never test it in real life. Hopefully, I will never need to retime this engine again, have done it way too many times.

  22. #47
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    Interesting theory George.you may be on to something even though I still have the code the weather was nice enough for me to try again. While re timing I noticed significant movement in the trigger wheel even though I torqued to specs after adjusting bank 1 timing code came back but the angle adaptations changed here's what it looks like now.

    IMG_20190216_163625.jpg . IMG_20190216_163658.jpg .IMG_20190216_163825.jpg

    I'm using G.A.S timing tools the setup for the trigger wheel is definitely different here is mine. IMG_20190216_172309.jpg
    the small circle screws into the Vanos solenoid hole and the flat piece fits perfectly on and it lines the trigger wheel up pretty easy to use now I'm wondering if it may be a tad off.I'm going back in tomorrow and focus on the trigger wheel but just asking how you would test your theory I have a willing test subject for you.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Zoz740i; 02-16-2019 at 08:39 PM.

  23. #48
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    Your numbers look good enough to have the code to disappear on it's own. Unless you enjoy doing this (I kind of do), you probably should just drive it around and hope the same happens as with mine.
    I have a very different timing tool for the wheel, looking like this:
    wheel timing.JPG

    but again your values are so close to perfection you might just mess it up if re-timing again. But if you decided to do so...
    Get this tool and have them pull down the banks while torquing the camshafts, this is how BMW tells us to do it, but hardly anybody doing it that way. That would test my theory that the banks move a fraction of a mm and causing all these issues. Btw Beisan also mentions that they might lift a bit, but he says below one mm is ok. Maybe he is wrong on that.
    This is how TIS explains it:
    TIS.JPG
    Source: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ontrol/4NFvg67

    Keep us posted, you seem to be doing good progress!

  24. #49
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    I think I'm beginning to like it ....lol....So I think I'm going back in blindfolded..grrrrr.
    From all my hunting on the net concerning this code I read somewhere a while back that the code will appear if the angle adaptations go past -5 not sure how accurate this info is. I also noticed that the Tool noted in your post George is designed to provide support for the trigger wheel so it can't move while tightening when I go back in i am going to try and set a jig to hold the wheel maybe that'll help get me a bit closer to -2-\0. Well gotta go try and beat this rain the weather has been crazy these last few days. Thanks again for your help and expertise will post progress

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoz740i View Post
    I think I'm beginning to like it ....lol....So I think I'm going back in blindfolded..grrrrr.
    From all my hunting on the net concerning this code I read somewhere a while back that the code will appear if the angle adaptations go past -5 not sure how accurate this info is. I also noticed that the Tool noted in your post George is designed to provide support for the trigger wheel so it can't move while tightening when I go back in i am going to try and set a jig to hold the wheel maybe that'll help get me a bit closer to -2-\0. Well gotta go try and beat this rain the weather has been crazy these last few days. Thanks again for your help and expertise will post progress
    I couldnt find any accurate data from reliable sources of where the value should be. Most people doing this job regularly said that below 10 range is fine, others said below 5...I couldnt find anything on the net from BMW clarifying it.
    I'm surprised that your tool set is missing these, they are part of even the cheapest ones. Maybe that's all you need. You can buy a new toolkit for around $100: https://www.amazon.com/8MILELAKE-Cam...s%2C187&sr=8-3 and probably sell it for $50 when done on Ebay or here. This is the actual kit I ended up using eventually.

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