Timing chain guides first start cel

[Zoz740i]

Quick back story car has been sitting for a just under the 16 months. Timing guides and all inbetween done about 4-5 months ogo minus valley pan and intake that's next. I used the G.A.S. Timing tools I think these tools work great. Finally a few days ago got a new battery, fresh 0-40 syn oil, and some ome blue coolant. Before I go on huge thanks to everyone who post on this forum if it had not been for all you guys and gals I would not have had the insight or courage to get thru this job saved me big bucks and to anyone considering the task take your time do your homework and like Nike ...Just do it!! I tried to post first start video but couldn't get it to upload. Will try again i read a lot about the first start but ended up adding oil adding coolant adding fresh gas hooking up new battery and letting her rip. For the first few starts nothing but the 4th or 5th it started but ran like crap thought i did something wrong i had no throttle response and car went into limp mode. Thought I was screwed but that's when all the hours my wife thinks I'm wasting my time reading random bimmerforum posts came thru....Just cause its not me doesn't mean it can't be......Just my two cents.....so I quickly pulled the throttle cleaned it .oops forgot to during the rebuild up popped it back in and it fired right up. Ran slightly rough but very strong took it for a spin ran almost perfect Ohhhh the feeling. CEL came on scanned I only have access to cheap bmw scanner code was "21 FUNCTION INLET CAMSHAFT CONTROL BANK 1". still runs slightly rough My question is could this mean the Cam sensor wheel is misaligned throwing timing off?I will swap sensors in the a.m see if it changes.Also I am in the process of bleeding the coolant system why does my upper radiator hose collapse during while engine is cooling ? Air pockets?

[Zoz740i]

Update swapped cam sensor no change. Went to get it scanned at the shop to get P code. Code is P0012 "Cam Over Retarted". So is it a safe bet the timing is off?

[georgebest]

I have got a a different code when my timing was slightly off. Did you use the special tool to set the timing wheel? It is super sensitive, even if you are a millimeter off you get a code. Is this the only code you are getting? Did you squeeze the oil out from the VANOS unit properly? I wonder if you missed a step somewhere.
But even if you do it meticulously sometimes the timing gets off. It took me 8(!) attempts to get rid of the error messages and I did it everything according to TIS/Beisan
What guide did you follow? I find obviously TIS the best but Beisan is probably the best independent guide. It is important to follow the sequence on tightening the bolts and of course everything to spec.

[Zoz740i]

[QUOTE=georgebest;30195010]I have got a a different code when my timing was slightly off. Did you use the special tool to set the timing wheel? It is super sensitive, even if you are a millimeter off you get a code. Is this the only code you are getting? Did you squeeze the oil out from the VANOS unit properly? I wonder if you missed a step somewhere.
But even if you do it meticulously sometimes the timing gets off. It took me 8(!) attempts to get rid of the error messages and I did it everything according to TIS/Beisan
What guide did you follow? I find obviously TIS the best but Beisan is probably the best independent guide. It is important to follow the sequence on tightening the bolts and of course everything to spec.[/QUOTE
8x wow bet that was fun....I carefully followed a few different write ups the German auto solutions website has a good write up for their timing tools. I also used Beisan E38.org and just about every write up i could find on this forum. I did use the Cam locking tool. Is it possible to over retard the Cam when tighten? I didn't do the drill bit in the inspection port trick thogh. Might try when I retime. And yes the only code i get is P0012 Cam over retard. Could it be the Vanos as didn't do the the but planning on it.

[clarkitect]

One thing I noticed when doing the guides is that it’s possible to have slack in the chain between banks. I think this could be a root of the problem but then again I’ve done this exactly once so am no expert. I would definitely pull the VC and retime with the locking blocks and small drill bit in the timing hole. Seems like the first thing to do. I would guess at this point any slack is gone.

[Zoz740i]

I also read a few places I could have a bad vanos solenoid or a bad oil filter cap. Any thoughts?

[georgebest]

I also read a few places I could have a bad vanos solenoid or a bad oil filter cap. Any thoughts?

What clarkiteck said above makes the most sense. Put the engine into TDC with the pin, remove the valve cover on bank1 and see if your timing block slides on. Also check with a bit if the timing wheel properly aligned with the hole on the upper timing cover.

Slack on the chain is only an issue if you didnt follow the exact sequence in TIS. That is why you need to start at bank 2 when tightening the camshaft etc.

You can swap the VANOS solenoids, I guess that could be possibly causing it as well but I'm finding that unlikely.

[Zoz740i]

What clarkiteck said above makes the most sense. Put the engine into TDC with the pin, remove the valve cover on bank1 and see if your timing block slides on. Also check with a bit if the timing wheel properly aligned with the hole on the upper timing cover.

Slack on the chain is only an issue if you didnt follow the exact sequence in TIS. That is why you need to start at bank 2 when tightening the camshaft etc.

You can swap the VANOS solenoids, I guess that could be possibly causing it as well but I'm finding that unlikely.

Thanks again Georgebest. I'm not sure which bank I timed first guess I will be going back in when this rain stops. How much slack on chain would be too much I'm kicking myself in the can cause I skimped on a $60 chain if that's the case hopefully not will keep you guys updated

[georgebest]

Thanks again Georgebest. I'm not sure which bank I timed first guess I will be going back in when this rain stops. How much slack on chain would be too much I'm kicking myself in the can cause I skimped on a $60 chain if that's the case hopefully not will keep you guys updated

These chains last forever, most people reuse them, dont worry about that. I think when you do it from scratch you should start with Bank 2 and then Bank 1 so the slack will move where the chain tensioner is at Bank 1. But it's been a while since I have done it, rather check correct sequence at Beisan or TIS.
Check your timing on bank 1 and see what you find there. Hopefully it's just the timing wheel being off a bit, that's an easy adjustment.
Btw the E39 forum here has tons of topics about this issue, they have the same engine. I have used that forum a lot when was trying to figure my timing issue. In my case the timing wheel needed a slight adjustment, even though it was set with the proper tools and I have done everything according to TIS. It was probably a 0.8mm turn and then the code disappeared. Swiss watches require less precision than this engine

[kouks]

Solenoids have nothing to do with timing, and if one was bad the engine would run like crap, almost stall out.

If you did not hand turn the engine several times while doing the guides and checking timing every single time you turn it, you may have had some slack in the chain that has finally shown up. This situation is not unusual for the TU engine. You will at least have to pull the valve covers and oil guides off the cam guides and reinstall the GAS timing blocks (with the pin in at TDC), and see if they fit. Realize the intake cams may move due to the VANOS. If the blocks don't fit perfectly, then its time to pull the upper timing covers and re-do the timing. About a 2 day job for me.

Once you have the timing correct, remove the pin and blocks and hand spin the engine back to TDC, replace blocks and pin, make and small adjustments, repeat again another 2-3 times until it settles perfect every time. This is also talked about and recommended in the GAS instructions, follow that process.

[jclausen]

I would check the timing wheels

[Zoz740i]

Solenoids have nothing to do with timing, and if one was bad the engine would run like crap, almost stall out.

If you did not hand turn the engine several times while doing the guides and checking timing every single time you turn it, you may have had some slack in the chain that has finally shown up. This situation is not unusual for the TU engine. You will at least have to pull the valve covers and oil guides off the cam guides and reinstall the GAS timing blocks (with the pin in at TDC), and see if they fit. Realize the intake cams may move due to the VANOS. If the blocks don't fit perfectly, then its time to pull the upper timing covers and re-do the timing. About a 2 day job for me.

Once you have the timing correct, remove the pin and blocks and hand spin the engine back to TDC, replace blocks and pin, make and small adjustments, repeat again another 2-3 times until it settles perfect every time. This is also talked about and recommended in the GAS instructions, follow that process.

I pulled Bank 1 cover and oil rails set at TDC but the blocks won't fit.

[georgebest]

I think on bank 1 there is a spring turning the camshaft, maybe that's the issue? Any picture of what you see.
Btw, this is the TIS guide: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...mshaft/4ParO9J

[Zoz740i]

I think on bank 1 there is a spring turning the camshaft, maybe that's the issue? Any picture of what you see.
Btw, this is the TIS guide: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...mshaft/4ParO9J

Here's what I'm looking at.
IMG_20190207_122531.jpg IMG_20190207_122555.jpg IMG_20190207_122657.jpg IMG_20190207_122732.jpg


Looks like timing is way off from where I set it. Exhaust Cam is way off.

[georgebest]

Here's what I'm looking at.
IMG_20190207_122531.jpg IMG_20190207_122555.jpg IMG_20190207_122657.jpg IMG_20190207_122732.jpg


Looks like timing is way off from where I set it. Exhaust Cam is way off.

Dont that one moves back (towards the other cam) freely a bit because of a spring? I'm not 100% sure but recall something like that. If that's the case that should be off and it's normal.

[clarkitect]

I think on bank 1 there is a spring turning the camshaft, maybe that's the issue? Any picture of what you see.
Btw, this is the TIS guide: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...mshaft/4ParO9J

That one is for the non-vanos engine. Here's the vanos engine guide:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ontrol/4NFvg67

The cams actually look like I would expect them to, and if you read the guide is says that the twisting of the cams does not mean it's out of time. I am just not confident in the next steps, and maybe that exhaust cam is out.

All of that said, you may want to PM dannyzabolotny and see if he can help you out. I know he has done tons of these and has been very helpful in the past. Member gsxrliterbikz is also very knowledgeable but I think he's moved on. I don't want to lead you too far into the weeds and you're net getting a lot of attention...

[jimoreno]

When I did my car it was the intake cam that sprung back the moment I took the block out. The exhaust one aligned perfectly. The intake one required the 22-mm wrench to bring it to the correct position for sliding the block in place.

[clarkitect]

Is the locking pin in the flywheel?

[georgebest]

When I did my car it was the intake cam that sprung back the moment I took the block out. The exhaust one aligned perfectly. The intake one required the 22-mm wrench to bring it to the correct position for sliding the block in place.

Yep, that is how I remember it as well. So what we see on the picture should be fine, hard to tell without the timing block on it though.

[clarkitect]

Looks like the exhaust could be off just a tad. Need to be sure it’s TDC and locking pin is in place.

[740iSport303]

I can't see the "A" on your exhaust cam at all. Are you certain you are not 180 degrees out from TDC?

[clarkitect]

I can't see the "A" on your exhaust cam at all. Are you certain you are not 180 degrees out from TDC?

This looks like it's not 180 out though.

[oldroller]

From your first picture it looks like the exhaust is slightly retarded, not square with the head Zoz. And the intake will spring forward from valve spring tension when blocks are removed.

Pull your upper right cover and remove the trigger wheel, loosen the cam bolts and line the cams up, make sure the pin is fully into the flywheel.Put the blocks on and tighten the bolts, making sure to rotate the Vanos counter clockwise until the stop. Hold the cams and torque them (don't rely on the blocks to hold them).

Reinstall the trigger wheel loosely and reinstall the upper cover. Remove the blind screw directly in front of the intake cam, and line the trigger wheel up with a drill bit that fits tightly through the hole into the wheel. Tighten to specs.

Always good to hold the intake cam from spring forward with a wrench when removing the timing blocks, then let is ease forward.Button it up and roll.

[Zoz740i]

Is the locking pin in the flywheel?

Yes pin is in 1st thing I did when after pulling covers off. Right before I took the pics. Re-timed bank 1 put everything back together started up same code what am I missing......question since I am only getting an over regard code could the Vanos unit be the culprit since this code hardly occurs after timing e38. I only wonder cause I didn't rebuild mine and I hear the rattle when idling also while I was setting continuity as I was purging the oil from the Vanos there was a slight in and out movement of the Vanos from the inner o-rings I did set continuity . i plan on opening her back up wil! Post updates thanks again for all the replies

[Zoz740i]

Back to square one new pictures TDC set pin is in retarded cam trigger wheel does line up and I still have continuity. IMG_20190208_145023.jpg. IMG_20190208_145828.jpg .IMG_20190208_150029.jpg

What am I missing?