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Thread: e21 No Start, Any Help is GREATLY Appreciated

  1. #1
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    e21 No Start, Any Help is GREATLY Appreciated

    Hello all,

    First: Yes I have read the FAQ and have done my own research on things to check when having a no start issue, but most of what I've read on here so far are issues where the car was "just running and now doesn't" or "can't stay running for more than a few seconds without throttle"... mine won't start at all. I haven't owned this car long at all and don't know much of its history.

    There's definitely spark - I've pulled out every spark plug and tested them while cranking the engine and I also just replaced the in-tank fuel pump last week, as there was an issue before where fuel wasn't making it to the fuel distributor. The replacing of the in-tank pump (which was dead) fixed this. I also have tested the fuel accumulator by attaching a clear line to the back of it and seeing if there is a constant release of fuel (which is bad) and it seems that it is in full working order.

    So, it's an 83 320i, m10 1.8L. It's getting fuel to the distributor but the fuel won't go to the injectors without my aid in lifting the "sensor plate" (as a few of you here have referred to it as). I haven't checked whether or not fuel is getting through the injectors but have disconnected the line before it and have fuel spilling out when I, again, lift the plate. However, with the injector hoses reattached and lifting the plate gently but manually, I tried starting the car (with the aid of starter fluid) and still got nothing, though the throttle body was most likely not opened either - why don't these work in accordance with each other???

    It would seem I have a vacuum leak somewhere but I have checked and replaced all hoses where needed and have gotten no changes. Just so I'm clear too: a vacuum leak anywhere would prevent the plate from lifting, correct? or is this a matter of fuel pressure? - this is something I've been unable to determine from my searches online (forgive me, I'm coming from an e30 platform where there's much more information online).

    In summation, it would appear as though my issue has something to do with the sensor plate not lifting. Should I be "jumping" the fuel pump relay while doing all of this or is it enough to just have the relay in there while cranking the engine?

    As it sits right now, I've removed the AFM/fuel distributor and cleaned off the AFM with the proper cleaning solvent. I've read not to open the fuel distributor but was curious to see the state of the control piston...

    I so greatly appreciate any feedback and the fact that you actually read through this post. I'm quite lost.

    Best,
    Sean

  2. #2
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    Yes, vacuum leaks will make the plate lift less than it would otherwise, resulting in less fuel being delivered.

    Have you checked the control and system fuel pressures? Yes you would jumper the fuel relay while checking pressures.

    Also have you set the mixture screw "baseline" as described in the FAQ?

    In my experience small vacuum leaks weren't enough to keep the engine from running, but they did prevent me from getting it to run smoothly when cold and/or hot.

  3. #3
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    Thank you, that's what I was looking for. I am going to adjust the mixture screw in a bit here. There's no way to do this without the method of listening to the fuel injectors right? I have the whole assembly off the car for cleaning right now, would be ideal to do it now, though I understand why this wouldn't work going off of the method described.

    Sean

    Quote Originally Posted by cgifool View Post
    Yes, vacuum leaks will make the plate lift less than it would otherwise, resulting in less fuel being delivered.

    Have you checked the control and system fuel pressures? Yes you would jumper the fuel relay while checking pressures.

    Also have you set the mixture screw "baseline" as described in the FAQ?

    In my experience small vacuum leaks weren't enough to keep the engine from running, but they did prevent me from getting it to run smoothly when cold and/or hot.
    Last edited by thescassidy; 01-30-2019 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #4
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    UPDATE: So, it appears that my idle fuel mixture screw (the 3mm screw in the air flow box) is missing entirely. I'm going to assume that this would have considerable impact on the car running at all... Can anyone confirm this?

    Sean

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    Yes, it would seem so! Nice catch

  6. #6
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    I can't find one for sale online anywhere... Does anyone on here have one for sale?

  7. #7
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    Has the engine ever ran normally while you've owned the car? Or did you get the car like this?
    Tbd

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescassidy View Post
    I can't find one for sale online anywhere... Does anyone on here have one for sale?
    If that mix screw is indeed 'missing', it's probably maybe sitting in the bottom of the meter box, as if someone unscrewed it all the way, not knowing what they were doing... and dropped it down in there.

    edit: or in the air filter box
    Last edited by epmedia; 01-31-2019 at 01:35 PM.
    Tbd

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescassidy View Post
    UPDATE: So, it appears that my idle fuel mixture screw (the 3mm screw in the air flow box) is missing entirely. I'm going to assume that this would have considerable impact on the car running at all... Can anyone confirm this?

    Sean
    Mine is gone. The car ran like that for around 25k+ miles. Seemed way too rich.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thecatmilton View Post
    Mine is gone. The car ran like that for around 25k+ miles. Seemed way too rich.
    The 3mm fuel mix screw, or the slotted idle 'air bypass' screw?

    I'd think that it wouldn't run without the 3mm fuel mix screw, because way too lean.
    Tbd

  11. #11
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    Cool

    The air / fuel mixture screw is a specialized screw,, you may need to get a volume air box--top half or whole thing, if the screw is lost. Top Half has the little fat allen screw-which moves the counter weight arm up and down with the air disk--the fuel distributor piston rides on the counter weight arm--so movement of this arm moves air /fuel mixture up and down simultaneously .

    Split Volume Air Box(right shows counter weight arm), Bosch Volume Air Box Number(air flow sensor) 0 438 120 111, Little Fat allen screw
    DSCI0019 (1a).jpg

    DSCI0025a.jpg

    DSCI0022a.jpg

    DSCI0023a.jpg

    Some have done conversions here and have the volume air box ask on the forum for one--1980-1983--1977-1979 have bigger air disk.

    Here is one on ebay for sale--whole thing top and bottom--different numbers yet the same----ask seller if the allen screw is in there--if interested in buying--its a small air disk--the one stock on your car.
    $45 free shipping,,one bid will get this. 5 days left on this item.

    s-l1600.jpg

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E21-E30...UKu4:rk:1:pf:0

    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 01-31-2019 at 11:52 AM.

  12. #12
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    Hey, to reply to both of your comments: No I never have had this engine running, I bought the car with an engine that was originally set up for a Weber carburetor and the guy had plugged up the injector holes. When I bought the car, and before the guy removed the carbs, he fired it up for me. However, when I got it, I was concerned that whatever was blocking the holes would fall into the cylinders and so I found another engine nearby and swapped it in. It cranks fine but hasn't fired up for me yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    If that mix screw is indeed 'missing', it's probably maybe sitting in the bottom of the meter box, as if someone unscrewed it all the way, not knowing what they were doing... and dropped it down in there.

    edit: or in the air filter box

  13. #13
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    Update: This just shows my inexperience with these engines, but the screw wasn't missing. I misunderstood the design of the assembly until I took it apart yesterday and realized that there's a hole to access the screw. I was thinking the screw threaded directly into that hole when glancing over it... lol. I cleaned everything off, including the AFM and am going to reassemble everything in a few hours here.

    I also removed the throttle body to clean it and saw the two coolant lines that run through it were incredibly brittle and one had broken off near where it fastens onto the throttle body. I can't say whether or not this has had an effect on the overall "vacuum" of the engine, but I'm definitely glad I caught it now rather than later.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Randy,

    I seriously appreciate you going through the trouble of posting a link to an extremely affordable AFM, as well as the detailed photos and description of what I'm looking at, but thankfully I've sorted out my "issue".

    You rock though, man, seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by 320iAman View Post
    The air / fuel mixture screw is a specialized screw,, you may need to get a volume air box--top half or whole thing, if the screw is lost. Top Half has the little fat allen screw-which moves the counter weight arm up and down with the air disk--the fuel distributor piston rides on the counter weight arm--so movement of this arm moves air /fuel mixture up and down simultaneously .

    Split Volume Air Box(right shows counter weight arm), Bosch Volume Air Box Number(air flow sensor) 0 438 120 111, Little Fat allen screw
    DSCI0019 (1a).jpg

    DSCI0025a.jpg

    DSCI0022a.jpg

    DSCI0023a.jpg

    Some have done conversions here and have the volume air box ask on the forum for one--1980-1983--1977-1979 have bigger air disk.

    Here is one on ebay for sale--whole thing top and bottom--different numbers yet the same----ask seller if the allen screw is in there--if interested in buying--its a small air disk--the one stock on your car.
    $45 free shipping,,one bid will get this. 5 days left on this item.

    s-l1600.jpg

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/BMW-E21-E30...UKu4:rk:1:pf:0

    Randy
    Last edited by thescassidy; 01-31-2019 at 03:00 PM.

  14. #14
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    UPDATE:

    So, I got everything back together, jumped the fuel relay and tried cranking it. Nothing. Then I jumped the fuel relay while turning the idle fuel mixture screw clockwise until I could hear the injectors spraying. I imagine it would be hard to hear them spray over the sound of whatever the hell device is making the buzzing noise. Didn't hear anything and was afraid I wasn't hearing them correctly (though I've read they make a whistling noise) - don't want to flood the engine. I then removed an injector and laid it on top of the intake manifold, jumped the fuel pump relay, and turned the screw.. still nothing. Then I did the same, except for turning the screw, cranked the engine AND manually lifted the sensor plate. Nothing coming out of the injector - though maybe that's not how this works? I'm unsure..

    So, three questions:

    1.) Do I need to be jumping the fuel relay AND crank the engine at the same time while turning the screw or can I just jump the fuel relay while turning the screw?

    2.) Can I do this with the injectors out of the engine, and turn the idle adjustment screw until I see the injectors spray or must this be done by ear with the injectors plugged in?

    3.) Also, when adjusting the fuel idle mixture screw to standard settings, is the goal here to leave the plate slightly opened so that it will allow fuel to be immediately 'injected' when the car is turned on? It seems that it might be....

    Sorry for all the questions, but I appreciate the help!

    -Sean
    Last edited by thescassidy; 02-01-2019 at 02:33 AM.

  15. #15
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    Cool

    1.) The buzzing sound is the Frequency Modulation Valve(FMV) and without it power goes down plenty--buzzing is good
    2.) Jumper the fuel pump relay, turn the key on to Run position this runs both fuel pumps and the FMV and then lift the sensor plate by hand or by turning the allen screw- clockwise richer, Counter cw leaner.
    3.) Yes the injectors can be removed and put in measuring cups or cups--then see the spray they do.--Careful with the plastic lines--DONT BREAK THEM. Disconnect the Plastic lines-remove the injectors-reconnect the injectors--put in small--not tall cups-4 of them

    Here is what I did with them when I did volume adjust on a rebuild FD

    DSCI0309.JPG

    From FAQ's

    Re-Adjust Base Mixture Setting
    If you’ve done major fuel system work such as swapping fuel distributor, AFM, WUR, fixed major vacuum leaks or have a non-running car it may be a good idea to re-set your base mixture setting to correct a grossly misadjusted mixture. To do this, jumper the fuel pump. Turn the mixture screw clockwise (rich) until you hear the injectors start to spray. They will make an audible squeel/humming noise. Back off counter clockwise (lean) till they stop, then back off another 1/8 turn. This should get the mixture setting close enough for the car to at least run assuming there are no other problems.

    Randy
    Last edited by 320iAman; 02-01-2019 at 10:40 AM.

  16. #16
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    Ok, good. I had been wondering what that noise was. I'll try and do that with the injectors, it seems like they need to submerged when testing them, yeah?

    One more thing worth mentioning I think: Two of the fuel injector lines broke and were replaced with rubber fuel lines that are roughly 6mm in diameter. The remaining two are the original fuel lines. Would this cause a problem?

    -Sean

    Quote Originally Posted by 320iAman View Post
    1.) The buzzing sound is the Frequency Modulation Valve(FMV) and without it power goes down plenty--buzzing is good
    2.) Jumper the fuel pump relay, turn the key on to Run position this runs both fuel pumps and the FMV and then lift the sensor plate by hand or by turning the allen screw- clockwise richer, Counter cw leaner.
    3.) Yes the injectors can be removed and put in measuring cups or cups--then see the spray they do.--Careful with the plastic lines--DONT BREAK THEM. Disconnect the Plastic lines-remove the injectors-reconnect the injectors--put in small--not tall cups-4 of them

    Here is what I did with them when I did volume adjust on a rebuild FD

    DSCI0309.JPG

    From FAQ's

    Re-Adjust Base Mixture Setting
    If you’ve done major fuel system work such as swapping fuel distributor, AFM, WUR, fixed major vacuum leaks or have a non-running car it may be a good idea to re-set your base mixture setting to correct a grossly misadjusted mixture. To do this, jumper the fuel pump. Turn the mixture screw clockwise (rich) until you hear the injectors start to spray. They will make an audible squeel/humming noise. Back off counter clockwise (lean) till they stop, then back off another 1/8 turn. This should get the mixture setting close enough for the car to at least run assuming there are no other problems.

    Randy

  17. #17
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    Bump, help a brother out!

  18. #18
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    I don't know about your rubber injector lines, may be fine for testing, but if they flex when pressurized, they're not going to work well and may eventually fail. Are they proper steel braided lines? * the injectors 'begin' to open at ~45 psi.

    Things to check for::
    Dirty/plugged filter on the inlet of the external fuel pump (some pumps don't have this).

    Sucking air bubbles on the suction side of the external fuel pump. Three pieces of hose on the suction side (connected to the metal "Y" fitting)- if original, they're sucking air bubbles/seeping fuel.

    Low fuel pressure from bad pressure regulator o-ring. This o-ring is accesible from outside the fuel distributor.
    -----
    While the fuel pump(s) are jumped, do you feel 'opposing' resistance when lifting the meter plate by hand? * this resistance is caused by fuel 'control' pressure. BE AWARE, doing this test will normally flood the engine with fuel while the injectors are installed.
    Last edited by epmedia; 02-03-2019 at 05:03 PM.
    Tbd

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    I don't know about your rubber injector lines, may be fine for testing, but if they flex when pressurized, they're not going to work well and may eventually fail. Are they proper steel braided lines? * the injectors 'begin' to open at ~45 psi.

    Things to check for::
    Dirty/plugged filter on the inlet of the external fuel pump (some pumps don't have this).

    Sucking air bubbles on the suction side of the external fuel pump. Three pieces of hose on the suction side (connected to the metal "Y" fitting)- if original, they're sucking air bubbles/seeping fuel.

    Low fuel pressure from bad pressure regulator o-ring. This o-ring is accesible from outside the fuel distributor.
    -----
    While the fuel pump(s) are jumped, do you feel 'opposing' resistance when lifting the meter plate by hand? * this resistance is caused by fuel 'control' pressure. BE AWARE, doing this test will normally flood the engine with fuel while the injectors are installed.
    Apologies on the delay there, I haven't worked on the car much the past few months - had to turn my attention towards another car. At any rate, I just checked the three things you mentioned above. I removed the fuel filter - which wasn't attached or inside the fuel pump inlet but further down the line (see photos), inspected it, and blew it out with a compressor, it's not clogged. I also inspected the pressure regulator o-rings per this write up: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ulator-O-rings and they seem to be just fine (see photos). The "Y" fitting and its surrounding hoses also appear to be fine as well (see photos - this is the "Y" fitting everyone refers to, right?) Also, to answer your last question, I seem to remember there being no resistance when lifting the plate and jumping the fuel pump relay. What does this mean though? I would think you'd not want any pressure against that plate lifting..

    Anyways, while I inspected the external fuel pump I noticed some questionable wiring going on and also that the pump appears to be smaller than other pumps that appear after Googling "e21 external fuel pump" (see photos). Whatever the case, it definitely doesn't look to be OEM.

    Again, thanks for all the help so far.

    1.jpg2.jpg3.jpg4.jpg5.jpg
    Last edited by thescassidy; 04-17-2019 at 12:36 AM.

  20. #20
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    Hi ...
    I must admit I've been out of the loop here myself for the last few months, so I didn't notice your original posts. So it was a bit of a shock to see the photos of the fuel pump in your latest post .... but it all made sense when I looked through your previous posts.

    Somewhere you said:

    " No I never have had this engine running, I bought the car with an engine that was originally set up for a Weber carburetor and the guy had plugged up the injector holes. When I bought the car, and before the guy removed the carbs, he fired it up for me. However, when I got it, I was concerned that whatever was blocking the holes would fall into the cylinders and so I found another engine nearby and swapped it in"

    For a carb system you'd be looking at somewhere around 3.5~6 psi fuel pressure (depending on what carb was fitted etc.) so it looks like a different pump and fuel filter have been installed.

    From the photos, it looks like you are missing all the appropriate fuel pump/fuel accumulator/fuel filter for a K-jetronic injected engine! K-Jet runs at a nominal system pressure of ~70 psi and the fuel injectors themselves wont open below about 45 psi.

    So I would think there is simply not enough pressure to operate the fuel injection, not to mention the really dodgy wiring!

    Basically the fix is not going to be simple ... you either put a carb on it ... or replace the proper K-Jet pump/accumulator/filter.

    Not happy news I'm afraid

    Cheers.
    Last edited by GDAus; 04-17-2019 at 10:06 AM.
    hmm .. Wonder what happens if I do this ...

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GDAus View Post
    Hi ...
    I must admit I've been out of the loop here myself for the last few months, so I didn't notice your original posts. So it was a bit of a shock to see the photos of the fuel pump in your latest post .... but it all made sense when I looked through your previous posts.

    Somewhere you said:

    " No I never have had this engine running, I bought the car with an engine that was originally set up for a Weber carburetor and the guy had plugged up the injector holes. When I bought the car, and before the guy removed the carbs, he fired it up for me. However, when I got it, I was concerned that whatever was blocking the holes would fall into the cylinders and so I found another engine nearby and swapped it in"

    For a carb system you'd be looking at somewhere around 3.5~6 psi fuel pressure (depending on what carb was fitted etc.) so it looks like a different pump and fuel filter have been installed.

    From the photos, it looks like you are missing all the appropriate fuel pump/fuel accumulator/fuel filter for a K-jetronic injected engine! K-Jet runs at a nominal system pressure of ~70 psi and the fuel injectors themselves wont open below about 45 psi.

    So I would think there is simply not enough pressure to operate the fuel injection, not to mention the really dodgy wiring!

    Basically the fix is not going to be simple ... you either put a carb on it ... or replace the proper K-Jet pump/accumulator/filter.

    Not happy news I'm afraid

    Cheers.
    Yeah, I should have figured there would be a difference in the fuel delivery system since the previous owner used a carburetor but being that the fuel was making it all the way to the distributor I thought the extra pressure needed to open the injectors was lost somewhere in a vacuum leak or something of the like.

    However, I don't think that the remedy for this is going to be too complicated at all. Might put me back a few unfortunately, but pretty straightforward. Also, the fuel accumulator is up towards the front of the engine and I've tested it to be sure it's working properly. That is definitely OEM. I swapped out the engine that was originally in the car when I bought it and replaced it with another that had a full wiring harness.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by thescassidy View Post
    Yeah, I should have figured there would be a difference in the fuel delivery system since the previous owner used a carburetor but being that the fuel was making it all the way to the distributor I thought the extra pressure needed to open the injectors was lost somewhere in a vacuum leak or something of the like.

    However, I don't think that the remedy for this is going to be too complicated at all. Might put me back a few unfortunately, but pretty straightforward. Also, the fuel accumulator is up towards the front of the engine and I've tested it to be sure it's working properly. That is definitely OEM. I swapped out the engine that was originally in the car when I bought it and replaced it with another that had a full wiring harness.
    I'm concerned that you may have the accumulator mixed-up with something else. The accumulator is piped directly to the pressure side of the main fuel pump, and is mounted to the same bracket for the main fuel pump and fuel filter.

    Can you post a picture of it?
    Tbd

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by epmedia View Post
    I'm concerned that you may have the accumulator mixed-up with something else. The accumulator is piped directly to the pressure side of the main fuel pump, and is mounted to the same bracket for the main fuel pump and fuel filter.

    Can you post a picture of it?
    I agree with Epmedia. Here's a link to an image of what the fuel pump assembly with the combination of the external pump, fuel filter and fuel accumulator looks like.

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/P-oAA...Y4i/s-l400.jpg

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/a...2&d=1370171017

    #17 is the fuel accumulator
    Last edited by Beam318ti; 04-18-2019 at 03:29 AM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beam318ti View Post
    I agree with Epmedia. Here's a link to an image of what the fuel pump assembly with the combination of the external pump, fuel filter and fuel accumulator looks like.

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/P-oAA...Y4i/s-l400.jpg

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/a...2&d=1370171017

    #17 is the fuel accumulator
    Thanks for posting those pics!
    and...
    #16 is the fuel filter
    # 1 is the main fuel pump

    * I mention those ^ because the picture may confuse others, because they look near identical
    Tbd

  25. #25
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    I was under the impression that the accumulator sat adjacent to the fuel distributor... I guess I'm wrong.. Whatever I thought it was I've tried my best to capture it (see photos). I want to point out that this car is an '83 and when looking at RealOEM.com, the same diagram you've attached shows that the production dates are "Up To 09/1978" see here. Real OEM doesn't allow for me to choose the year 1983 for the production month/year and only goes as high as 1982 from what I can tell. Either way, the diagram displayed when choosing 12/1982 displays this. Naturally, I'm a little confused. My car does have an in tank fuel pump, though I know that this contributes little towards the overall pressure of the system. I'd think that the additional fuel pump might free up the need for other components that you've all mentioned, but again I really have no idea. RealOEM has rarely failed me though...

    Can any of you confirm whether or not this is accurate? I see Beam318ti has an '83 - at least it says so in your profile, hopefully you know or can recall.

    Thanks again to everyone.

    IMG_5761.jpgIMG_5760.jpgIMG_5759.jpg

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