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Thread: Oil starvation damage to camshaft

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Critter7r View Post
    In the absence of conclusive evidence of negligence on the part of the oil change shop (there is no conclusive evidence), the dealer should pursue the timing chain extended warranty route.
    +1

    It may be necessary to bring in a specialist to examine it.
    Last edited by ship4u; 02-06-2019 at 01:13 PM.

  2. #27
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    This 328i N26 owner describes his experience with timing chain failure. Note, however, the damage was to the lower engine, not the top.
    https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1236843

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is the lawsuit that apparently prompted BMW to provide the extended warranty.
    https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...g-chains.shtml

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ship4u View Post
    This 328i N26 owner describes his experience with timing chain failure. Note, however, the damage was to the lower engine, not the top.
    https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1236843

    - - - Updated - - -

    This is the lawsuit that apparently prompted BMW to provide the extended warranty.
    https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2...g-chains.shtml
    That first one sounds like the oil pump chain let go, and caused the lower end to seize.
    Quote Originally Posted by B4SH View Post
    If anyone knows, it's this guy who knows literally nothing about everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by fcvapor05 View Post
    Do you even OT? The mean 401k around here is probably about $6, what with all the shiny cars and $1,000 watches and donations to get other members' Volvos running.


  4. #29
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    jthang, any update on your situation?

  5. #30
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    Thanks for checking in. According to the repair shop, the amount of play in the timing chain was within normal limits, and there was no apparent damage to the guide block. They said that depending on the position of the cam, it would be possible to advance the chain with just a fingertip. They don't think there is anything wrong with the timing chain or that the issues giving rise to the extended warranty are at play here.

    Last week, I met with the oil change shop's insurance inspector, and he confirmed that he did not believe there was an issue with the timing chain. Instead, his concerns were that:
    1. The third intake cam bearing showed discoloration and deep scarring, but the first, second, and fourth bearings were shiny and relatively smooth, though worn down. The fourth had a few rough patches, but seemed in better shape than the third. That made him think that the third bearing had some kind of mechanical defect that was the source of all the problems to the engine. He said that if there had been insufficient oil, then the fourth would have been worse than the third, since it is further from where the oil enters the cam.
    2. He did not observe heat discoloration on the camshaft journals. (I don't think this is true. The journals are clearly darkened.)

    I told him that I would get back to him with a full explanation of why the above points cannot be relied upon, especially in light of all the other evidence of oil starvation. I think I have enough from the the helpful comments that have been left on this thread, but if anyone else has any other ideas or thoughts on why the third cam bearing and journal would be in worse shape than the fourth, I would appreciate it. As for discoloration, I think this is just a matter of showing him pictures of the journals. The bearings are smooth and shiny (other than the third, which is black and pitted), but I think that is because the bearings are made from a different metal alloy than the journals, right?

  6. #31
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    jthang, I'm very glad to hear that there is some progress towards a resolution with the oil change shop insurance. I believe that the inspector's assessment is weak and will be easily disproved with some help from your repair shop. They are your best asset because they diagnosed the problem originally as oil starvation and they have the first hand examination of the evidence.
    The "discoloration" of the metal parts is due to high heat, which is consistent with friction caused by oil starvation. The camshaft and valves are moving very rapidly and will create heat immediately along with destruction in the form of metal shavings. Minute metal shavings combined with rapid movement and lack of oil equals catastrophic failure. The damage to your engine happened very quickly and the lack of more uniform damage to each of the journals, in my opinion, supports oil starvation, not a pre-existing longer present defect in a bearing or camshaft. No one can say where the minute metal shavings will end up and which parts will be affected.
    Best to you and keep us posted.

  7. #32
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    any update?

  8. #33
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    No, still waiting on a response from the insurance inspector. I'll let you know what happens.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jthang View Post
    No, still waiting on a response from the insurance inspector. I'll let you know what happens.
    Thanks. I wish the best for you in this terrible situation and I check each day for some good news.

  10. #35
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    jthang, I was in contact with a technician who informed me that your BMW will have a date AND TIME record of exactly when the engine issue occurred. The dealer should be able to obtain that information from the fault code. The time information would be helpful for you since that would indicate that something happened while they actually had your car in their shop. Best to you!

  11. #36
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    Sorry if I interrupt here, but I wonder how the oil change place ascertained that there was no oil, or not enough oil in the engine, when the electronic sensor wants the oil to be at operating temperature before showing the level. Running the engine for that length of time would've caused all kinds of damage. Unless this engine has an actual dipstick, which I don't know.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donlundm3 View Post
    Sorry if I interrupt here, but I wonder how the oil change place ascertained that there was no oil, or not enough oil in the engine, when the electronic sensor wants the oil to be at operating temperature before showing the level. Running the engine for that length of time would've caused all kinds of damage. Unless this engine has an actual dipstick, which I don't know.
    Good points, Donlundm3. It is very curious what went on in that oil change bay. Jthang can confirm, but I don't believe his car has an oil dipstick, but rather, must rely on the electronic sensor to determine oil level. It seems that the engine was started without oil, at which the operator probably heard engine noise and turned the engine off. What I can't figure out is why they then only filled the engine 1/2 way and gave him back the car. That is negligence in itself.
    Last edited by ship4u; 03-21-2019 at 01:21 PM.

  13. #38
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    Any news?

  14. #39
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    I'm going through something like this with Valvoline quick oil change on my Jeep srt8. They claim they put 7 qts of oil in my Jeep but it ran dry at around 5k miles. Dealership told them either they didn't put enough oil in it or they used the wrong viscosity. Only way it would be dry after 5k miles. The dealership did compression testing and no internal leaks found. So I'm having to take Valvoline to court because they still stand by they put the right oil in it. This incident is what caused me to go buy another car last week and that's when I picked up the 2012 328i. Stand your ground and if need be take them to court. That's what I'm going to have to do with my Jeep.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ship4u View Post
    jthang, I was in contact with a technician who informed me that your BMW will have a date AND TIME record of exactly when the engine issue occurred. The dealer should be able to obtain that information from the fault code. The time information would be helpful for you since that would indicate that something happened while they actually had your car in their shop. Best to you!
    Bingo. The car's computer should be able to tell you when the fault codes occurred (how many miles). More proof that all the problems started while the car was at the shop. Be sure to get record on that data (screenshots and/or the dealer's record of that data) before it gets erased or the battery loses power.

    There's a real possibility that the insurance guy will try to seem reasonable, but not be. His first goal is to give you doubt in the hope that you will give up. There's a good chance that they will pay only when they realize you have a good case and you won't give up. I'd also threaten to go to one of those action news stations that likes to brag about helping the little guy. Getting a lawyer now will prob be worth it, to help guide you and let the insurance guy know you're serious.

    Sorry for your trouble.
    Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-29-2019 at 05:55 AM.

  16. #41
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    One other side thought...

    Wouldn't the car immediately tell them that it was low on oil? Or is there some delay because of the whole no-dipstick thing, where the car has to idle a while before it tells you whether the engine has enough oil or not?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    One other side thought...

    Wouldn't the car immediately tell them that it was low on oil? Or is there some delay because of the whole no-dipstick thing, where the car has to idle a while before it tells you whether the engine has enough oil or not?
    I believe that cranking the engine with no oil at all would cause immediate catastrophic damage which would be detected as metallic noise created by friction. Too late for any warnings.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ship4u View Post
    I believe that cranking the engine with no oil at all would cause immediate catastrophic damage which would be detected as metallic noise created by friction. Too late for any warnings.
    I agree the engine couldn't run long at all without significant damage. But some oil remains in all the bearings after an oil change, even after long periods of sitting. when the car is started it takes a while (maybe 5-10 seconds) for the filter to fill and oil to flow to all the key surfaces. So yes, it could get real bad real soon.

    I've always thought getting rid of the dipstick was a dumb idea. If someone is putting oil in one of these later models and can't remember how much they added, what are they to do? They can't just check the dipstick. Do they drain and refill it? Do they add more and risk overfilling it?

    Or, if they start it and let the car tell them, then what? How long would the engine have to run before the car told them it was seriously low on oil? Would in be immediately, like on my old 540i, or would it take a while for the oil level routine to run it's course? (Just curious.)

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    I agree the engine couldn't run long at all without significant damage. But some oil remains in all the bearings after an oil change, even after long periods of sitting. when the car is started it takes a while (maybe 5-10 seconds) for the filter to fill and oil to flow to all the key surfaces. So yes, it could get real bad real soon.

    I've always thought getting rid of the dipstick was a dumb idea. If someone is putting oil in one of these later models and can't remember how much they added, what are they to do? They can't just check the dipstick. Do they drain and refill it? Do they add more and risk overfilling it?

    Or, if they start it and let the car tell them, then what? How long would the engine have to run before the car told them it was seriously low on oil? Would in be immediately, like on my old 540i, or would it take a while for the oil level routine to run it's course? (Just curious.)
    As I read your thoughtful comments, I realize I should walk back "cranking the engine" and replace it with "running the engine." I don't know exactly how the oil level sensor works in the new no-dipstick engines, but, in the old days, it was the oil pressure which was monitored. Therefore, the oil "warning light" would remain on for several seconds after starting the car while oil pressure in the engine rose to its proper level.
    I agree that eliminating the manual dipstick, which was a totally reliable method of monitoring engine oil level, and replacing it with electronic sensors placed in a very hot oil bath, is stupid, for the reasons you stated.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ship4u View Post
    As I read your thoughtful comments, I realize I should walk back "cranking the engine" and replace it with "running the engine." I don't know exactly how the oil level sensor works in the new no-dipstick engines, but, in the old days, it was the oil pressure which was monitored. Therefore, the oil "warning light" would remain on for several seconds after starting the car while oil pressure in the engine rose to its proper level.
    I agree that eliminating the manual dipstick, which was a totally reliable method of monitoring engine oil level, and replacing it with electronic sensors placed in a very hot oil bath, is stupid, for the reasons you stated.
    Right, so there are still 2 oil sensors -- one for oil level and the other for oil pressure. So if the oil level was too low to build enough pressure to send oil to the cam bearings, the oil warning light should have been (probably was) on from the moment the oil service guys started the car, and they apparently ignored it, and even revved it? Amazing.

    Jthang...that brings up another important point. The known facts are that there was some oil in the crankcase, right? Is was low but not empty. So there's your rebuttal to the insurance guy. If the car had no oil, one might expect all the bearings to fail in a similar way. But what if there was enough oil for the pump to pick some up and push it through the system in sputtering, inconsistent way? Then one would expect inconsistent wear and damage from oil starvation, which is what you found. (Sorry.)

    The insurance guy and the oil change company don't have a leg to stand on.
    Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-31-2019 at 05:30 AM.

  21. #46
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    I'd check around, as there are people who will represent you with the insurance company. Remember, a new or rebuilt engine will cost you big, big bucks, and if you had to pay $500 to someone, it's a lot better than what you've got now, which is nothing.

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