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Thread: Another crank no start issue

  1. #1
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    Another crank no start issue

    So I finally got my car all back together after the turbo build.
    First start up was amazing and started right away And I drove the car for about 20 minutes with no issues. Went to start it the next day And all it did was crank and didn’t want to start. I initially thought it was A cylinder wash down because before I turned it off after taking her for a her first drive I wanted to see if my launch control was working and after that I turn the car right off. So I took the spark plugs out and I smelled a strong smell of fuel, so I wiped the spark plugs dry and put about 2 teaspoons of oil in each cylinder and the car started up on the second try.After letting her warm-up for about 10 minutes I decided to take the car around the block to make sure everything was fine and the problem went away but on my drive as soon as I came to a stop sign the car just died and didn’t want to start ever again. After towing the car to my house I started diagnosing it and figured I’ll change the fuel filter and since it had this after towing the car to my house I started to diagnose the problem and I figured I’ll change the fuel fulter maybe it got clogged Because during the build process I put in a new fuel pump and bigger injectors And to my surprise the car still did not want to start, I know the fuel pump is working because after I tried to start the car after I put in a new fuel filter I barely put on the hoses and some fuel was shooting out on the bottom hose of the fuel filter. I checked all the fuses and everything seems fine and even tried to Replace the fuse relay and the main relay with another relay I had lying around.I also tried to jump the fuel pump relay and heard a Type of water shooting out sound, also when I try to crank it the check engine light is on so that I would tell me that the dme is functioning the way it should. I then thought it could be a bad crank position sensor and unplugged it and got a 850 resistance and Just out of curiosity ordered a different one and I had the same resistance measurement.

    What should I start checking for next or how should I diagnose It next .

  2. #2
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    Can you elaborate some more on the turbo build? Is the DME tuned for the new turbo situation? Did you install higher capacity injectors (which might be causing the flooding)?

    Things you can also do, is remove one coil (keep connector attached), install a spark plug in it, connect the bottom of the spark plug to a known-good ground point (something bare metal). Then ask someone to crank the engine. Do you see a spark?

    If so, then you can assume the crank position sensor is okay, the DME is receiving a good signal and is able to calculate the RPM from it, and fires the coils, and (most probably also) the injectors.

    If not, then try and see if you can find +12V on the ICV connector, or coil connector with ignition on. If you see +12V with ignition on, it means the DME is properly sending a ground signal to the DME relay, which activates, and in turn supplies power back to the (bigger circuits in the) DME and all injection electronics under the hood. If there is no +12V, then you have to start looking at the DME, DME wiring and DME relay, because somehow the DME relay isn't activated.

    I think this should get you going.. Good luck! (I imagine you'd very much want to try the new turbo some more; I hope it will run properly soon)..


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  3. #3
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    Yeah The car was tuned by 22 RPD and that included the tune, the 60 pound injectors and a Hitachi maf.
    And yes the next on my list is to check if the car has spark and then take it from there. I’ll keep you updated.
    Thanks.



  4. #4
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    You should ask shogun to move your thread to FI subforum.
    Avoid Vogtland Suspensions! Rusted then failed!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    Can you elaborate some more on the turbo build? Is the DME tuned for the new turbo situation? Did you install higher capacity injectors (which might be causing the flooding)?

    Things you can also do, is remove one coil (keep connector attached), install a spark plug in it, connect the bottom of the spark plug to a known-good ground point (something bare metal). Then ask someone to crank the engine. Do you see a spark?

    If so, then you can assume the crank position sensor is okay, the DME is receiving a good signal and is able to calculate the RPM from it, and fires the coils, and (most probably also) the injectors.

    If not, then try and see if you can find +12V on the ICV connector, or coil connector with ignition on. If you see +12V with ignition on, it means the DME is properly sending a ground signal to the DME relay, which activates, and in turn supplies power back to the (bigger circuits in the) DME and all injection electronics under the hood. If there is no +12V, then you have to start looking at the DME, DME wiring and DME relay, because somehow the DME relay isn't activated.

    I think this should get you going.. Good luck! (I imagine you'd very much want to try the new turbo some more; I hope it will run properly soon)..
    So I unscrewed one of the coils and attached the spark plug and put it on a ground And when cranking I did notice a spark.
    What should I diagnose next ?

  6. #6
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    I also did a stop test and came up with what appears to be a 1281 code, any insight on this?
    Last edited by DSGBUILT; 01-24-2019 at 12:46 AM.

  7. #7
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    Looks like you already checked for spark. I'd run a compression test and make sure you have adequate fuel pressure. 44psi at idle and 51 psi without vacuum.


    96 328 Turbo
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  8. #8
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    I Tried to spray starter fluid in the intake boot and still the same problem, I’m kind of clueless to what it could be. Car has spark and seems like it has fuel. I guess the last thing to rule out a fuel issue would be a fuel pressure regulator?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmw328m52 View Post
    Looks like you already checked for spark. I'd run a compression test and make sure you have adequate fuel pressure. 44psi at idle and 51 psi without vacuum.
    I’m going to have to stop by AutoZone and get a compression testing kit, can it possibly be a fuel pressure regulator?
    Last edited by DSGBUILT; 01-24-2019 at 01:24 PM.

  9. #9
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    If it has a spark, then at least the DME, crank position sensor and (probably) all injection electronics under the hood seem to be working fine.

    After cranking for a while, can you remove a spark plug, and see if it's flooded again?

    If so, then clean the spark plugs, add some oil to the cylinders to be safe, remove the fuel pump relay, and crank again, using starter fluid..
    You'd expect it to have combustion then. If that's the case, then I think the engine floods itself at idle.. Probably a problem in the tune, or too high capacity injectors, or a faulty fuel pressure regulator. You can check fuel pressure by adding a T-piece to the fuel rail input (be sure to connect to the input, as there is no/low pressure on the output) and connecting a fuel pressure gauge. Should be 2.8 bar at idle and 3.5 bar at WOT. Unless the tuner installed another FPR calibrated at another pressure.

    Good luck!

    P.S. Going from 17 lbs (E36 stock) to 60 lbs is quite an increase (3.5 times as high capacity).. If FPR is identical, this means that idle injection times go as low as almost 0.5 ms (2ms standard I think). At those very low injection times, the precision decreases a lot.. So it might overshoot or undershoot more easily. Law of small numbers. But, I personally have no experience with high capacity injectors, so I don't know if it would turn out to be problematic or not. Did you install a really big turbo.. 325i stock injectors are good for a little over 200 HP, so your injectors would go up to say 700 HP.. Might that be overkill or is your turbo that big and psi really that high (or do you think about upgrading to such high HP later)?
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-24-2019 at 01:35 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    If it has a spark, then at least the DME, crank position sensor and (probably) all injection electronics under the hood seem to be working fine.

    After cranking for a while, can you remove a spark plug, and see if it's flooded again?

    If so, then clean the spark plugs, add some oil to the cylinders to be safe, remove the fuel pump relay, and crank again, using starter fluid..
    You'd expect it to have combustion then. If that's the case, then I think the engine floods itself at idle.. Probably a problem in the tune, or too high capacity injectors, or a faulty fuel pressure regulator. You can check fuel pressure by adding a T-piece to the fuel rail input (be sure to connect to the input, as there is no/low pressure on the output) and connecting a fuel pressure gauge. Should be 2.8 bar at idle and 3.5 bar at WOT. Unless the tuner installed another FPR calibrated at another pressure.

    Good luck!

    P.S. Going from 17 lbs (E36 stock) to 60 lbs is quite an increase (3.5 times as high capacity).. If FPR is identical, this means that idle injection times go as low as almost 0.5 ms (2ms standard I think). At those very low injection times, the precision decreases a lot.. So it might overshoot or undershoot more easily. Law of small numbers. But, I personally have no experience with high capacity injectors, so I don't know if it would turn out to be problematic or not. Did you install a really big turbo.. 325i stock injectors are good for a little over 200 HP, so your injectors would go up to say 700 HP.. Might that be overkill or is your turbo that big and psi really that high (or do you think about upgrading to such high HP later)?
    I definitely smell fuel after cranking it for a while.I also added oil to the spark plugs walls the second time it died and didn’t want to start and it still just cranked and didn’t want to do anything, I am going to order a fuel pressure regulator and if that doesn’t fix the problem I’m going to contact the tuner and see If it’s a possible tuning error.
    I’ll let you guys know how it goes after I change out the fuel pressure regulator
    Last edited by DSGBUILT; 01-24-2019 at 01:42 PM.

  11. #11
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    Cool! I hope that the FPR is the cause..

    Here is some interesting information about injectors. Injectors have something that's called 'dead time'. It's the time that the injectors needs +12V applied to it for it to 'wake up', after which it will start to squirt fuel. As you can see in this post, some injectors have 0.5ms dead time: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewto...?f=131&t=57243 . Alas, it's no exact science, as voltage and temperature have an influence on the dead time.

    So, if you use really high capacity injectors, and idle injection times go as low as 0.5ms, but at the same time the dead time of the injectors is 0.5ms +/- say 30% depending on voltage/temperature, then you have no clue how much fuel the injectors are really injecting.

    For example:
    The DME supplies voltage for 0.5 ms to compensate for the dead time. In reality the real dead time was 0.4ms at the current specific conditions (voltage / temp, etc).
    Then the DME supplies voltage for another 0.5ms to squirt the required amount of fuel. In reality the total injection time was 0.6ms because of the dead time inaccuracy.

    The same, but with normal injectors:
    The DME supplies voltage for 0.5 ms to compensate for the dead time. In reality the real dead time was 0.4ms at the current specific conditions (voltage / temp, etc).
    Then the DME supplies voltage for another 2.0ms to squirt the required amount of fuel. In reality the total injection time was 2.1ms because of the dead time inaccuracy.

    So, in the first case, with the high capacity injectors, the deviation is 0.1ms on 0.5ms, which means it has overshot a whopping 20%, easily causing the spark plug to foul and the cylinder to soak in gasoline.
    In the second case, with the stock injectors, the deviation is 0.1ms on 2.0ms, which means it has overshot only 5%, which won't cause any trouble..

    So, if the tuner didn't adjust the dead time table of the new injectors, or didn't adjust it with the right values, then that might be causing the overshooting.

    So, when using very high capacity injectors, the tuner has to put in an extra effort to dial in the exactly right dead times, and also the perfect correction tables.. Otherwise you risk overshooting fuel, or undershooting fuel, with high percentages, enough to flood the engine in no time. For example, idle AFR=14.7, with a 20% overshoot that turns into 11.7 which can potentially flood the engine.. Especially during warming up phase when stock idle AFR is, say, 13 and 20% overshoot causes it to drop to 10.4 AFR. Also the MAF calibration map in the DME needs to be spot on.
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-24-2019 at 02:52 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  12. #12
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    Hes probably running the same tune I am from Zack, 22rpd. I've had my fair share of problems but the tune itself has never made my car not fire or start.

    The only things that have are:

    1. MAF wiring coming loose or disconnected. Car will stall If MAF is disconnected or the wires short out. And if I remember correctly the car wont start without the MAF connected as well.

    2. Trunk fuse to DME blown after shorting pins to under hood obd II connector. You have to ground 2 pins to flash ECU. I forgot they were in and they shorted blowing the fuse in the trunk to DME power = crank no fire

    3. Massive vacuum leak, crank no fire

    Checked fuel up and down, was not fueling related at all.



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  13. #13
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    Option 1 & 3 might be a cause with DSGBuilt's problem. Option 2 can be excluded because the DME is getting power and is firing the coils.

    Option 3 is not likely because his engine seems to be flooding, and with a big vacuum leak, the engine would run very lean..

    Option 1 is something to check. Not sure if they fit another connector on the stock wiring harness, for the Hitachi MAF, or does it use the same connector? That could be a place to double check.

    With the flooding going on, you'd think it's fuel related.. But could also be defective MAF (but it's probably new), giving way too high voltages, flooding the engine. Or a bad coolant sensor, indicating it's freezing temperatures causing the DME to overfuel.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  14. #14
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    I cant recall if the DME still received some power from somewhere even with fuse blow. I'd have to look st the schematics. But I did have 22prds MAF pig tail fail. He sent me replacement thr wires inside came loose

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  15. #15
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    So I changed the fpr regulator and added some oil in the spark plug wells, it started right away but as soon as I put it in gear and tried to move it died,
    I also noticed after it died and did not want to start again I removed the fuel pump fuse to clean the system out of fuel and try to start it sputterd and stared but died shortly
    Last edited by DSGBUILT; 01-26-2019 at 01:18 PM.

  16. #16
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    Okay.. Still seems to be overshooting fuel. Most probable causes:
    * MAF supplying too high voltage, causing DME to overshoot (or problem with MAF wiring)
    * Coolant sensor falsely indicating an extremely low temperature, causing DME to overshoot
    * A really bad oxygen sensor that, in previous runs, falsely kept indicating a too lean mixture, causing the DME to overshoot AND save the trim adaptation in the DME memory

    Alas, because of the big modifications (the high cap. injectors) the DME won't run anymore with MAF disconnected (which normally is a very easy way to check if MAF is good or not). The Alpha-N fuel maps in the DME are virtually never re-tuned. So if you disconnect the MAF, the DME will resort to the stock injector fuel map, which will cause the engine to flood instantly (3.5x too much fuel).

    Would be very nice if you had INPA running, because then you could see the errors in the DME, and the fuel trim, and the live coolant temp. sensor values. Would help diagnosing the problem a lot. Will also show live MAF air flow values.

    You could try and find diagnostic procedures, (Ohm/voltage) measurements for the Hitachi MAF. And double check the wiring if it all seems fine.
    Coolant sensor, you can measure using a multimeter, using the reference values as shown in the E36 Bentley manual.

    If you can somehow hard-reset the DME, and then disconnect the oxygen sensor, you can take the influence of the oxygen sensor out of the loop.

    Perhaps give the tuner a call and ask him what he think might be causing this..

    Good luck!


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  17. #17
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    How would I go about finding the correct voltage/ohm for the maf, and finding the correct measurment of the coolant temperature sensor it’s a 94f325I is it the sensor on the left or on the right on the block? Someone told me that it’s on the left side but on the real OEM.com it shows it being on the right side. I know one of them had a blue plug and one black

  18. #18
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    For the MAF, you could look up the exact part number on internet and try and find a diagnostic procedure. Might prove a bit difficult, don't know in which cars this MAF was used.

    The coolant sensor specs can be found here: http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte...37310731.html# . On page 2 of the data sheet PDF you can find a complete table with reference values (Temperature C versus Ohm value): http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/conte...2782569739.pdf .

    The M50 indeed has 2 sensors. One for the DME and one for the instrument cluster.
    Easiest way to be sure is just disconnect one of the connectors, and then check in the cabin if a temperature shows on the instrument cluster. If the needle stays completely down, you know you disconnected the instrument cluster sensor. Then reconnect it, and use the other sensor to measure the resistance, comparing with the table in the PDF linked above.

    Oh wait, you need the blue one, that's the one that sends the temp to the DME, according to this post: #10


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  19. #19
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    Well I am measured the resistance on the coolant temperature sensor and it checked out perfect, Went over the crankshaft position sensor and it’s right at 848 But for some strange reason I can’t get no reading from the camshaft position sensor? Maybe this is my cuplift?

  20. #20
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    You can disconnect the camshaft position sensor. Engine should still run, in a bit less optimized way, but no problems at all (wasted spark ignition instead of seq. ignition, and I think batch injection instead of seq. injection). So, if, all of a sudden all problems disappear without the camshaft ps, then you're quite certain that the sensor needs replacing.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  21. #21
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    I went through a similar problem with my car. I ended replacing everything and spending a shit ton of money (my car would start but ran terribly)

    If I we're you, if possible: I would swap all of the stock components back onto the car, DME, Injectors, MAF, etc... And see if the car will start and how well it runs.

    The stock software is much more forgiving when a sensor/or readings are off. Check for a CEL on stock software, and then start troubleshooting accordingly.

    Make sure everything is tight stock and then swap your turbo bits back on - and look for a change.

    I did ^ when I was having problems and low and behold the car ran perfect on stock equipment

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed323i View Post
    You can disconnect the camshaft position sensor. Engine should still run, in a bit less optimized way, but no problems at all (wasted spark ignition instead of seq. ignition, and I think batch injection instead of seq. injection). So, if, all of a sudden all problems disappear without the camshaft ps, then you're quite certain that the sensor needs replacing.
    Unplugged the camshaft position sensor still same thing. Do you really think it’s a reliable test? The sensor had no resistance at the plug when I measured it so that will be the same thing as it being unplugged no ?I’m about to order one from AutoZone and tell them it’s the wrong one in case that doesn’t fix the problem

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSGBUILT View Post
    Unplugged the camshaft position sensor still same thing. Do you really think it’s a reliable test? The sensor had no resistance at the plug when I measured it so that will be the same thing as it being unplugged no ?I’m about to order one from AutoZone and tell them it’s the wrong one in case that doesn’t fix the problem
    I think if I unplugged my camshaft sensor the car still ran

    What about the crank sensor? - Which is the one that prevent the car from starting and make it stall out?

  24. #24
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    I’mGetting a decent resistance from the crankshaft position sensor, but no resistance from the camshaft position sensor. I can’t start the car so I can see what it would do if I i un plug either one

    - - - Updated - - -


    If someone has a OBD1 and a voltmeter can they check for me the resistance of the camshaft position sensor

  25. #25
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    M52, and I think M50 also, will run with only one of the position sensors installed.
    So, you can safely disconnect camshaft position sensor, and engine should run fine on just the crankshaft position sensor.
    And, even the other way around (only camshaft position sensor connected), it should run just fine.

    So, disconnecting the camshaft position sensor, and noticing no change, doesn't imply the camshaft position sensor is good or bad, but it indicates it's not the main source or your problems. So, it can still be bad, and if you really measure 0 Ohm, then you can assume it's bad, and it's worth replacing anyhow. Don't expect it to fix the problem though..

    Here, someone says that both crankshaft and cam position sensor should give +/- 540 Ohm. #4

    Update: Oh, wait, that's incorrect.. The M50 camshaft position sensor can't be tested with testing resistance: #7

    So, I think your camshaft-ps is probably just fine, but no way to be 100% sure.. I double checked E36 Bentley manual, and, indeed, no sensor specifications for the camshaft-ps. Crankshaft position sensor indicates 1280 +/- 10 Ohms though, and air gap between sensor and toothed wheel of 1.0 +/- 0.3 mm (0.04 +/- 0.01 in.). It seems to apply to all models (4-cylinder and M50 and M52).

    +1 on 328iFun's tip to go back stock as much as possible.. But perhaps do some more tests before doing that.
    * Perhaps ask the tuning shop if you can lend another Hitachi MAF, to see if that works better
    * Check all the MAF-related wiring
    * Disconnect fuel pump relay, make sure spark plugs are completely dry, and use some starter fluid to see if engine runs on that (won't run nicely, but should run). Then you're sure the crankshaft position sensor is fine, that the coils are firing fine, on the right times, etc, and that the problem is related to (over)fueling . Then go from there. There aren't many more options than MAF, wiring or DME or bad tune left.

    Also, try and fine someone who has a laptop, ADS-interface and a working copy of INPA installed. That will give a lot more insight on what's going wrong, when you can see the live sensor values, and the stored error codes..

    P.S. One more test you can do, is disconnect the crankshaft position sensor, because according to Bentley it's out of range (1280 Ohm +/- 10%) and let the DME run on only camshaft position sensor. See what happens.

    Update 2: Not sure.. Seems like Bentley Ohm values are not correct.. 540 Ohm is what I see the most online.. Anyway, still not in range, so you can suspect the crankshaft position sensor.
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-27-2019 at 06:44 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

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