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Thread: M50 Manifold Swap Vacuum/Air leaks?

  1. #1
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    M50 Manifold Swap Vacuum/Air leaks?

    Hi all,

    I recently did the kasselperformance m50 manifold swap, and all went well except the startup of the car. I disconnected the fuel rail, so the first startup sounded like a tractor, as seen in the video, but I'm having an issue where, upon cold starts, it bogs, then idles at 2,000rpm steady, for about 45 seconds to a minute. Then it drops to normal, but surges a bit. Afterwards, it steadies out, but occasionally self-blips, if you will. It's also developed a slight slight "misfire." (not a REAL REAL misfire, but the typical e36 idle misfire. if I hold RPMS steady at above 1000 the issue goes away. nothing too worrisome, as all e36's I've ever seen, worked on, and been around, have this problem.)

    the idle seems just kinda unbalanced though. It's not smooth, it's a bit rough. I feel like I hear a hissing noise from somewhere, so what I'm gonna do is take care of the essentials that I probably should've mentioned beforehand.
    -the nut closest to the firewall on cylinder 6 holding the manifold dropped beneath the starter, so I don't have one there. i need to fish it out and get it.
    -i somehow completely lost one of the four throttle body bolts. I need to order a new one.
    -my secondary air pump is deleted, so one of the vacuum line tees is open, because I haven't found a way to plug it. putting my finger over it, though, doesn't really change much, unless it'll show some long-term usage. It's a 3mm opening so i assume it's really small.
    -If the ICV has an orientation, and doesn't just connect to the two hoses, I might have to flip mine around.

    anything, anyone? since this is now flowing 40% more air, what I'm gonna do is also just put some miles on it and see if that resolves the issue. About 5 minutes into idling, though, I threw a check engine light for these codes (PASOFT)

    CA[202] fuel trim limit bank 1
    CB[203] fuel trim limit Bank 2
    08[008] air mass flow meter
    e4[228] fuel trim, bank 2
    e3[227], fuel trim, bank 1
    e1[225] temperature after start up catalyst 1 voltage level
    e2[226] temperature after start up catalyst 2 voltage level
    ^e1 and e2 I presume are post cat o2, maybe, and those were there after I manual swapped the car, for some odd reason. They're shadow codes, and don't actually illuminate the CEL. the other ones, though, are brand new.

  2. #2
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    You’ll want a tune, and yes the ICV only goes one way...

    If you have a way to do a smoke test that would help you as well!
    98 M3 sedan

  3. #3
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    I got everything through Kasselperformance, and my DME got tuned specifically for my manual swap, m50 manifold, and SAP delete. if so, how do I tell which way is the correct way that the ICV goes on? I'm pretty sure I got it right because I never removed the hose that connects it to the intake boot. I have a spare one too so I'll see.

  4. #4
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    The lower port goes to the valve cover, if you have the tune I would still say try and do a smoke test.
    98 M3 sedan

  5. #5
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    oh that's for OBDI, with the m50 swap, one end of the ICV goes to the intake boot, and the other end goes into the CCV vacuum hosing. What I'm confused on, though, is that the ICV moves freely on its rubber mount and needed to be rotated to fit on the brackets to do the manifold swap. I THINK, maybe, that there's an arrow, by chance, pointing into the vacuum. I'd assume that the car just wouldn't idle if it were backwards so I'm pretty sure I did it right.
    Last edited by mpost3r; 01-22-2019 at 10:39 AM.

  6. #6
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    M50 Manifold Swap Vacuum/Air leaks?

    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    oh that's for OBDI, with the m50 swap, one end of the ICV goes to the intake boot, and the other end goes into the CCV vacuum hosing. What I'm confused on, though, is that the ICV moves freely on its rubber mount and needed to be rotated to fit on the brackets to do the manifold swap. I THINK, maybe, that there's an arrow, by chance, pointing into the vacuum. I'd assume that the car just wouldn't idle if it were backwards so I'm pretty sure I did it right.
    Sorry, that’s what I meant I just didn’t tell you that the upper port goes to the manifold.

    I’ve done the swap as well and had a few issues with the ICV recently

    So the port connected to the cone section is the inlet and the port on the round disc part is the outlet, i’m assuming you know where the drain goes.
    Last edited by TheJordanWhitte; 01-22-2019 at 11:44 AM.
    98 M3 sedan

  7. #7
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    My icv had an arrow on it that should point to the cylinder head iirc. Try chasing down some of those codes you have for the maf and o2 sensors. Did you plug them all back in?

    Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

  8. #8
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    i actually saw the arrow on another person's icv, and modeled mine after it. i assume the car would not idle if it was backwards. it would read everything exactly opposite and stall out. so, it's probably a leak somewhere. ill drive it around and see if that makes it better, though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO7Ttz4K1Ls
    Last edited by mpost3r; 01-22-2019 at 05:46 PM.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    i actually saw the arrow on another person's icv, and modeled mine after it. i assume the car would not idle if it was backwards. it would read everything exactly opposite and stall out. so, it's probably a leak somewhere. ill drive it around and see if that makes it better, though.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO7Ttz4K1Ls
    The rubber membrane inside can fail and cause the same type of leak so you might want to switch it out and see if that changes it
    98 M3 sedan

  10. #10
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    rubber membrane? I might've missed something. There was a rubber fitting on one end of the ICV that I had to take out to fit the manifold swap fitting, but I doubt that would make a difference:
    https://www.ebay.com/i/282042043545?chn=ps

  11. #11
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    What's weird is that I did an M50 Manifold swap on my car and it was perfect for around 3 or 4 months. Then going into the winter I was experiencing the same issue with my RPMS starting at 2000rpm on cold start and then going back to normal after a minute or so. I've done some reading and asked my tuner (Kassel) who said it could be a bad temp sensor in the head, but also maybe a vacuum leak or a stuck throttle bottle that when warms up is fine. Haven't had the will to take everything off again so I've left it as is and I'm not throwing any codes so we'll see. If it matters I used the m50manifold.com kit to swap manifolds.
    1998 BMW 328is | Racing Dynamics front strut bar | M3 Cross Brace | Borla Cat-back Exhaust | Fortune Auto 500 Coils w/ Swift Springs | M3 Side Moldings | ZKW Glass front headlights | Short shift kit | Euro 3-spoke custom steering wheel | Hamann brake handle/Pedal covers | Mulberry Door Panels | Max Velocity RS Lip | BBS RS198s

  12. #12
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    finsky, this may be the cause. As the temperature is fluctuating from the 50s to the teens almost every day, I could definitely see that being a possibility. As for vacuum leaks, I know there's only one way to verify that, and that's by testing it, but I don't half-ass anything (caveat: the one missing throttle body bolt and the one missing manifold nut) and I do remember setting all the vacuum up correctly. There is one pinhole vacuum leak I am aware of and that is from the tee that USED to go to the secondary air pump, since I removed it. I was very relieved that my engine almost stalled out after removing the oil cap, because that shows that I have little to no vacuum leaks in the system.

    However, when you mention temp sensor "in the head," are you referring to the temp sensor that I relocated to the intake boot to complete the swap, or a coolant sensor, or something else? I wasn't aware of any temperature sensors in the heads.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    rubber membrane? I might've missed something. There was a rubber fitting on one end of the ICV that I had to take out to fit the manifold swap fitting, but I doubt that would make a difference:
    https://www.ebay.com/i/282042043545?chn=ps
    It’s on the inside and it’s what holds back some of the blow by from going right into the manifold
    98 M3 sedan

  14. #14
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    UPDATE: I finally filmed a video on one of my cold starts, this is exactly what I've been experiencing. I doubt that installing the airbox would make a difference for this. Some people on other forums are talking about bad coolant temp sensors, bad cam sensors, and bad differential(?) sensors. I'm not throwing any codes for these, so I highly doubt these are the cause. Could it posisbly also be the fact that I relocated my air temp sensor to the intake boot that connects right before the traction controle throttle body? could this perhaps be bad/shorting?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Mrvh49luM
    Last edited by mpost3r; 01-29-2019 at 12:43 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    UPDATE: I finally filmed a video on one of my cold starts, this is exactly what I've been experiencing. I doubt that installing the airbox would make a difference for this. Some people on other forums are talking about bad coolant temp sensors, bad cam sensors, and bad differential(?) sensors. I'm not throwing any codes for these, so I highly doubt these are the cause. Could it posisbly also be the fact that I relocated my air temp sensor to the intake boot that connects right before the traction controle throttle body? could this perhaps be bad/shorting?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Mrvh49luM
    Yeah the coolant temp sensor I am talking about is located in the head of the engine, so kind of a pain in the ass to get too. Good new and bad news, I have the EXACT same issue that you have and after seeing your youtube video link its exactly the same. My most recent attempt at a fix was the use some RTV around the area where I put my air intake sensor in the intake boot just like you did, and that didn't do anything. The issue only happens to me on a cold start, and if the car is warm then the issue never happens. If you figure something out let me know, I am just as lost as you. I would check your coolant temp sensor in the head but thats all I got because I can't fix it either, and it's weird because it was perfectly fine after I did the swap and for a few months after that.
    1998 BMW 328is | Racing Dynamics front strut bar | M3 Cross Brace | Borla Cat-back Exhaust | Fortune Auto 500 Coils w/ Swift Springs | M3 Side Moldings | ZKW Glass front headlights | Short shift kit | Euro 3-spoke custom steering wheel | Hamann brake handle/Pedal covers | Mulberry Door Panels | Max Velocity RS Lip | BBS RS198s

  16. #16
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    to follow up on your same issue, I contacted the guy at Kassel and he said that, while he does set his cold start idle settings based off coolant temperatures, it should only idle a *little* higher. He said that he programs the DMEs to idle a little higher if it detects the coolant is cold, however that 2,000 idle is still a little too high. With that being said, I shipped my DME back over to him and he's running diagnostic tests with some of his own m52s with the swap done to it, and he said he will then modify the cold start idle tables to make it idle a little lower. he told me that, on his own car, his cold starts idle a little higher than BMW's factory 800 or so to around 1200-1300. That's much more reasonable than 2 grand, so once I get my DME back from him after he works out the issue I'll give it a shot and I'll keep you updated. Regardless, it's not an engine problem. It's just that this m50 manifold swap tune must have had its cold start idle values set a little too high. apparently this only affects a select few of us, and he (Jim @Kassel) has been very patient and understanding of me. I'll let you know!


    ALSO! the way we both figured out it's a tune issue is because I hoooked up my old, stock DME and it worked perfectly. Idled right at around 900, which is exactly where it used to idle.
    Last edited by mpost3r; 02-06-2019 at 12:22 AM.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    to follow up on your same issue, I contacted the guy at Kassel and he said that, while he does set his cold start idle settings based off coolant temperatures, it should only idle a *little* higher. He said that he programs the DMEs to idle a little higher if it detects the coolant is cold, however that 2,000 idle is still a little too high. With that being said, I shipped my DME back over to him and he's running diagnostic tests with some of his own m52s with the swap done to it, and he said he will then modify the cold start idle tables to make it idle a little lower. he told me that, on his own car, his cold starts idle a little higher than BMW's factory 800 or so to around 1200-1300. That's much more reasonable than 2 grand, so once I get my DME back from him after he works out the issue I'll give it a shot and I'll keep you updated. Regardless, it's not an engine problem. It's just that this m50 manifold swap tune must have had its cold start idle values set a little too high. apparently this only affects a select few of us, and he (Jim @Kassel) has been very patient and understanding of me. I'll let you know!


    ALSO! the way we both figured out it's a tune issue is because I hoooked up my old, stock DME and it worked perfectly. Idled right at around 900, which is exactly where it used to idle.
    Sweet that's awesome to hear! Keep in touch if all goes well and then I'll go about reaching out too and trying to get my stuff fixed if it works for you. Sadly, j don't have any other ECUs to check with so we'll see. Thanks!
    1998 BMW 328is | Racing Dynamics front strut bar | M3 Cross Brace | Borla Cat-back Exhaust | Fortune Auto 500 Coils w/ Swift Springs | M3 Side Moldings | ZKW Glass front headlights | Short shift kit | Euro 3-spoke custom steering wheel | Hamann brake handle/Pedal covers | Mulberry Door Panels | Max Velocity RS Lip | BBS RS198s

  18. #18
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    UPDATE: I got my ECU retuned and sent back to me by the kassel guys, and it urns great now. It's almost silent on idle, and there are no idle misfires. idle is about 700RPM, right where it should be. Engine runs so smooth.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpost3r View Post
    UPDATE: I got my ECU retuned and sent back to me by the kassel guys, and it urns great now. It's almost silent on idle, and there are no idle misfires. idle is about 700RPM, right where it should be. Engine runs so smooth.
    I'll PM you to get some more info and then I'll see about getting my ECU checked out!
    1998 BMW 328is | Racing Dynamics front strut bar | M3 Cross Brace | Borla Cat-back Exhaust | Fortune Auto 500 Coils w/ Swift Springs | M3 Side Moldings | ZKW Glass front headlights | Short shift kit | Euro 3-spoke custom steering wheel | Hamann brake handle/Pedal covers | Mulberry Door Panels | Max Velocity RS Lip | BBS RS198s

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