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Thread: Battery symbol despite alternator charging

  1. #1
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    Battery symbol despite alternator charging

    Hi Everyone,I have a weird problem.

    I have been having problems with my alternator. Sometimes it won't charge at idle. 12.6volts or 12.8 volts. I have a voltmeter permanently hooked up to the battery with wires inside the cabin. I did this after coming back a week ago and find the battery dead. I may have left something on I don't know. But a jump start and I was ok tested the battery at a shop after a drive and it was ok the reserve charge is at 71%. 18 month old battery.

    Yesterday, While driving, the battery symbol came on slowly. It would be very faint at idle, then a little brighter while driving. Never as bright as when you are starting the engine. What's weird is, the alternator was charging at 13.7 volts while the symbol came on ! My voltmeter showed me that. It doesn't make any sense.

    Just now, i went down. The car is cold. Started up. Voltage nearly 14. No battery symbol. Even at idle 13.5+ volts. In my experience, in the last couple of days, the charging voltage during idle drops to 12.6-12.8 volts and back up to 13.5v + while driving. No battery symbol during this time. So I expect this to happen later.

    What is wrong ? Why did the light come on faintly while the alternator was clearly charging?

    Thanks.Tom
    Last edited by Thomas525; 01-18-2019 at 09:42 PM.

  2. #2
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    If the battery light is slightly on while driving, that means the alternator is not charging enough. Had that some years ago on my E36 M3, suddenly while driving the battery light was always dimming, set the OBV on voltage test and it showed only around 10V.
    Changed the voltage regulator, no change. Then one of my wrenching buddies took it apart and found out that one alternator diode was defective. Ordered a new diode and tried to open the plastic housing of the rectifier, but broke the housing, so I bought a cpl. new rectifier https://www.lima-shop.de/en/index.ph...Rectifier.html
    problem solved after installing the new rectifier.

    Ever changed the voltage regulator?
    Maybe the brushes are worn.
    Also check the wiring between alternator and B+ post and the bolts for the wires on the alternator, if lose, then a problem.
    Last edited by shogun; 01-18-2019 at 11:06 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Thanks Shogun. But the battery symbol came on while charging was good at 13.5+Volts. I was watching on my voltmeter hooked up to my battery with small wires, while driving. That's whats confusing me. The symbol came on somewhat while the charging was good. The multimeter is fine, new battery.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas525 View Post
    Thanks Shogun. But the battery symbol came on while charging was good at 13.5+Volts. I was watching on my voltmeter hooked up to my battery with small wires, while driving. That's whats confusing me. The symbol came on somewhat while the charging was good. The multimeter is fine, new battery.
    13.5V is a little low while driving. 13.9v is OK at idle but while driving it should be more I think. I haven't had to do a lot of electrical work on BMWs but the cars I'm used to is 13.8 minimum and up to 14.4v while driving.
    Anyhow, it's best to check amps, not voltage.The alternator warning lamp should be based on current flow.
    Check alternator ground, try get a automotive analyser or something with a current testing shunt or a good meter you can wire inline to measure current or something.


    E:I found this web page, not sure if it's of any use to you:
    https://www.ethirtyfour.com/How_to_T...r#Output_Check
    Last edited by fo3; 01-19-2019 at 03:21 AM.

  5. #5
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    Hey thanks for the link f03. I helped alot. And I didn't realise the battery symbol could be run off current and not just voltage- seems obvious come to think of it.

    Yesterday I was driving and the symbol came on. Voltage was around 13.7-13.9volts while driving throughout. I must have driven for at least 40 minutes on a highway. Engine was strong, lights did not dim. Now oddly, exactly a year ago i had a problem with my alternator that died while driving, I think the car moved about 15 minutes city/highway combo before it stopped on its own. Wouldn't start, battery was flat, had to be towed and I changed the alternator at home with an emergency spare I had. So last night's performance is the alternator definitely working even though the battery symbol was on.

    It must be as you said poor current. Could a bad voltage regulator, and shortened carbon brushes, create this problem ? What I now have is my original alternator rebuilt and reinstalled. It had diode problems like shogun mentioned, and they repaired that, changed the bearings, carbon was inspected good I think but I didn't see it myself.

    Can I measure current with just a digital multimeter ? I read the link you posted, looks like you need something that can measure 100+ amps. Mine is the $10 handheld multimeter. Can I use this in some practical way ? To at least measure that I have enough current, if it can't tell me exactly how much current I actually have. Thank you. And thank you for the link it was a very helpful.

  6. #6
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    Start with the simple stuff first, I wasted so much time on my car by over thinking it and jumping to conclusions. Check the battery terminals and make sure there isnt any corrosion. check the positive terminal post under the engine bay on the driver side next to the secondary water pump i think. Then test the voltage the alt is kicking out.. i literally was kicking myself in the ass when i found my positive terminal post was rusted to hell after replacing a known working alternator, starter etc etc, but atleast all of that stuff is now new lol
    Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel! ... oder Steine, Hauptsache er trifft.

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  7. #7
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    Yes. I cleaned out my battery contacts with steel wool. Battery terminal too. Wrapped some exposed wiring in electrical tape. Check battery ground for corrosion. In fact battery ground had been cleaned off a year ago.

    And, I also checked voltage at the alternator while running. Put the multimeter terminals between the b+ post at the back of the alternator and the alternator case. The Voltage was exactly the same as the battery. Checked this several times at different voltages as it was falling. This was in the earlier part of this saga, before I hooked up the terminals directly to my multimeter. No corrosion at other terminals, current is running fine. New battery in my multimeter, I know that weak batteries can give wrong results.

    So I have done the obvious stuff. Thank you for reminding me I feel reassured to list it all out.

    So please advise how I can test an alternator's current with a handheld ordinary multimeter. Thank you.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas525 View Post
    Yes. I cleaned out my battery contacts with steel wool. Battery terminal too. Wrapped some exposed wiring in electrical tape. Check battery ground for corrosion. In fact battery ground had been cleaned off a year ago.

    And, I also checked voltage at the alternator while running. Put the multimeter terminals between the b+ post at the back of the alternator and the alternator case. The Voltage was exactly the same as the battery. Checked this several times at different voltages as it was falling. This was in the earlier part of this saga, before I hooked up the terminals directly to my multimeter. No corrosion at other terminals, current is running fine. New battery in my multimeter, I know that weak batteries can give wrong results.

    So I have done the obvious stuff. Thank you for reminding me I feel reassured to list it all out.

    So please advise how I can test an alternator's current with a handheld ordinary multimeter. Thank you.
    You can't really, This is what a shunt resistor is for. Even good multimeters are limited to 10A.
    In the old days when I had cars with contact points/breakers I had a meter that did dwell, tach and current. See if you can find one cheap second hand. You're looking for something like this:
    analyser.jpg
    It has a shunt resistor
    A shunt works by putting a resistor inline and knowing resistance and volts you calculate current. You can google all about them if you want to make your own and not need to buy a meter with one.
    Theory:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQxc_Fz7Dn4

    If you know electrics enough to make you own you can even get a amp meter so you don't even need to make any calculations
    https://stephenstuff.wordpress.com/2...rrent-testing/

  9. #9
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    I would honestly check the brushes on the voltage regulator or maybe your exciter wire is starting to crap out or doesnt have the best connection ? ( the wire that sends the signal to the dash about battery)... you said you did a draw test to make sure there was nothing drawing on the car right ?
    Herr, wirf Hirn vom Himmel! ... oder Steine, Hauptsache er trifft.

    88 Alpineweiss / black E30 M3 -Project.
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  10. #10
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    Fo3, that's so simple its dumb simple. I can get a 0.1 ohm resistor for a few pennies tomorrow. Then I'll feed it inline to the battery's negative clamp.

    I've found that when the car is running, I can remove the negative clamp without stopping the engine. It stays at idle normally. Only if I remove the positive battery clamp, the engine stop. So I start the engine, remove the negative clamp, and touch the 0.1 ohm resistor between the free negative clamp and negative battery terminal. Before doing this, I will have the multimeter's leads on both sides of the 0.1 ohm resistor and the multimeter set to 20volts. Then when i touch the terminals I will get the voltage drop reading instantly and I can calculate using P = VI, ohm's law. At idle it should produce 20-30amps. At 2k rpm I should get nearly 140 amps.

    Am I on the right track ? If there's a better way to do this please advise me. Thanks !

  11. #11
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    Power rating. The resistor has to be able to dissipate the heat for the current flowing through it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neel View Post
    I would honestly check the brushes on the voltage regulator or maybe your exciter wire is starting to crap out or doesnt have the best connection ? ( the wire that sends the signal to the dash about battery)... you said you did a draw test to make sure there was nothing drawing on the car right ?
    I will check that at some point. I promise you that. But basically, the issue is the battery symbol coming on while the alternator is charging at normal voltage. Someone suggested that this is because the current output is low even though the voltage output is correct. So I want to check the current output. I am curious.

    Fo3 I will remember the power issue and will buy accordingly thank you for the tip !

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    I'd be tempted to take the alternator out and have it bench tested ( a free service at a lot of parts stores). Proof that it works correctly will make the diagnosis easier.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by zubbie View Post
    I'd be tempted to take the alternator out and have it bench tested ( a free service at a lot of parts stores). Proof that it works correctly will make the diagnosis easier.
    If that's an option do that. All the auto parts stores in western Australia turned into accessory stores that offer no services and have no knowledgeable people (all 'retail' staff, teens etc)
    RIP marlows with 30-40+ year olds that have been in the business for a long time and even had a workshop attached....
    Last edited by fo3; 01-20-2019 at 11:55 AM.

  15. #15
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    If that light is glowing you DO have a problem with the alternator. The light can only glow with current flowing through it. If things are working properly it has the same + voltage applied to both ends of the filament so NO flow, no light.
    From your description I'd say the rectifier(diodes)is bad which can also cause the battery to be discharged.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    If that light is glowing you DO have a problem with the alternator. The light can only glow with current flowing through it. If things are working properly it has the same + voltage applied to both ends of the filament so NO flow, no light. From your description I'd say the rectifier(diodes)is bad which can also cause the battery to be discharged.
    Holy shit.

    Does that mean that it might not be a wiring or carbon brushes or regulator problem ? So even if my regulator is fine, and the output voltage while driving is normal, the carbon brushes are good, that symbol can show up while driving if one or more of the diodes are gone ?

    And can the battery be discharged when the diodes are bad and the car is not running ?

    Because about 2 weeks ago before the above saga I came to find the battery flat and reading like 4 volts. Don't recall leaving any lights on. After I had it jumped and drove on the highway for 15 minutes, I shut down and it started up very normally. Power was strong. Voltage was 12.6v. I had my battery electronically tested 1 month back and it was at 70% reserve charge which is very far away from natural failure.

    Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zubbie View Post
    I'd be tempted to take the alternator out and have it bench tested ( a free service at a lot of parts stores). Proof that it works correctly will make the diagnosis easier.
    Oh I'm not able to do heavy work and here in HK the auto parts stores don't do testing like that. I may take the car into the shop and have them check the alternator and replace on the spot with my spare.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ross1 View Post
    If that light is glowing you DO have a problem with the alternator. The light can only glow with current flowing through it. If things are working properly it has the same + voltage applied to both ends of the filament so NO flow, no light. From your description I'd say the rectifier(diodes)is bad which can also cause the battery to be discharged.
    Holy shit.

    Does that mean that it might not be a wiring or carbon brushes or regulator problem ? So even if my regulator is fine, and the output voltage while driving is normal, the carbon brushes are good, that symbol can show up while driving if one or more of the diodes are gone ?

    And can the battery be discharged when the diodes are bad and the car is not running ?

    Because about 2 weeks ago before the above saga I came to find the battery flat and reading like 4 volts. Don't recall leaving any lights on. After I had it jumped and drove on the highway for 15 minutes, I shut down and it started up very normally. Power was strong. Voltage was 12.6v. I had my battery electronically tested 1 month back and it was at 70% reserve charge which is very far away from natural failure.

    Thanks.

  18. #18
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    The "regulator" for these alternators is an easy to swap assembly containing the rectifier(changes the as generated AC current to DC via the diode trio), voltage regulator and the brushes. If the "regulator "is available to you it is an easy job to change. Search "Bosch voltage regulator"
    Yes, bad diodes can discharge the battery while the car is off.
    You weren't specific about your car but I think the link below could be the one you need.

    https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/vol...-30091#fitment
    Last edited by ross1; 01-21-2019 at 10:05 AM.

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  19. #19
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    Thank you Ross1 you are a wealth of knowledge. I just checked what you said yes indeed bad diodes can discharge a battery on its own with the engine off. That makes perfect sense now.I mean I have left my lights on before once I did not close the trunk properly. The battery flatten over 1-2 days but it never went as low as 4 volts over just one night on a tested good battery. Like more like 10 or something. And now the batt symbol is coming on while I am driving and charge output voltage looks normal.

    So whether my carbon brushes are ok or not, I definitely have a diode problem.

    Thanks for the link. The regulator I can change on the car itself I have done that before. Theres a shop not to far away I can just bring it into, buy a new one, and change it in their car lot itself. The diodes, I can't, because the whole alternator has to be removed from the car first, and then dismantled.

    Can I buy diodes alone and give it to the alternator people to change ? Because they are supposed to have fixed a diode problem I had with this alternator about a year ago. I don't think they changed every single one bozos clearly they didn't. I will go somewhere else but I want to give them the physical diodes and watch them do it. Will that work, is it an easy job to remove the old diode and put in a new one, do rebuilders do that or do they get another spare diode assembly of the same size and swap it in ?

    Thanks again.

  20. #20
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    As mentioned in post #2 I tried to replace a single diode in the rectifier, but the plastic housing was destroyed, so I had to replace the complete rectifier. I do not know the exact part number of your alternattor, in my case it was from my E36 M3, Bosch 80A, 0 120 485 048, KC>14V 50-80A, Made in Great Britain, BMW # 1744562, new BMW # 12311744562, 12341234667, reman 12311744566. This alternator was also used in E34. Part 12311744562 was found on the following E34 vehicles:•5' E34, 520i, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HG51) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 520i, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HG52) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 520i, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HG61) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 520i, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HG62) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525i, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HJ51) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525i, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HJ52) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525i, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HJ61) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525i, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HJ62) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525ix, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HJ71) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525ix, Touring, M50, MANUAL, EUR, (HJ72) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525ix, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HJ81) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
    •5' E34, 525ix, Touring, M50, AUTO, EUR, (HJ82) : Alternator, individual parts 80A
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  21. #21
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    Hi Everyone great news in a way.

    I found a simple way to test if my diodes have failed.

    Please see this video :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUhgyqm0wro

    Basically this can be done while the alternator is on the car. Just disconnect either the positive or negative pole from the battery, or the big wire from the B+ post at the back of the alternator. And then put the multimeter leads on the B+ post and the alternator's case.

    On the video the guy sets his multimeter to diode setting. On another video, I saw a guy use the 2k Ohm or 1K ohm setting. It worked just as well. You should only get readings in one direction and not the other when the leads are flipped.

    I just did this on my car and unfortunately, I'm getting readings in both directions at least intermittently. So that is consistent with some intermittent failure.

    Bad news diode failure confirmed. But good new the diode itself seems to be a simple thing to replace for a rebuilder :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCKgQ4somTk

    (Somewhere in the middle of that he shows the new diode trio).

    My alternator is a Valeo 140 amps. I'm going to find the diode trio part number and just order it online and bring it over to the shops.

    Am I on the right track ?

  22. #22
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    That diode tro in your youtube looks different, the Valeo and the Bosch compact alternator have all diodes in a plastic housing and you have to replace the complete rectifier bridge https://store.alternatorparts.com/rectifiers-valeo.aspx
    As mentioned above, I tried it and broke the housing of the rectifier bridge of the Bosch alternator.
    such a rectifier bridge costs you at least $50 plus shipping. I would get a reman alternator
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  23. #23
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    Well good news and bad news in a way. My earlier test were a false alarm. Got a friend to test on his E34 and he produced the same readings as mine. Undid one batt terminal and tested continuity between B+ alternator post and alternator casing. Readings in both directions with the leads swapped. So I disconnected the wires from my alternator and unhooked both terminals on my battery, and did the alternator diode test. Now it tests perfect - current in only one direction.

    Carbon does not look too shot either. Both are thick and can be pushed into the regulator, although one carbon brush is significantly shorter than the other.

  24. #24
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    I have more updates. Drove until the battery symbol started to appear while driving and while it was charging at 13.7volts. Stopped the engine, disconnected the b+ wiring and both battery terminals, and did the diode test between the alternator case and the B+ post. It works ! Current only registers in one direction. So my rectifier is perfectly fine.

    On a hunch, I unplugged the D+ wire on the alternator, and wrapped it in plastic then drove. Now, the batt symbol does not come on at run, startup or at anytime. Charging is at 11.7 volts at idle and while driving, until the tach crosses 2k once and then it jumps to 13.8-14volts. It stays around these levels even when at idle after that. In fact after flicking the pedal to 2k charging seems to suddenly start, and after that the alternator behaves normally. Previously, the alternator would not charge at idle.

    Removing the D+ wire has sorta fixed the problem. From this is it correct to conclude that it is the D+ wiring that has some problem, and not the alternator ? If so, what is the best way to fix that? Or is it something I can leave unfixed ? Is this a common problem, is there a common spot in the wire which would have some problem if there was a problem in the wire?

    Attached is the picture of my voltage regulator. One carbon is much shorter than the other, but both still have legs. I have seen really bad carbon before and this is not it. Anyway the alternator is charging normally after the flick past 2k so I don't think it is the carbon. Thanks.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I suppose whatever is connected to the D+ post in the wire can be damaged, but if that's the case would the 2k flick work to activate the alternator and have it charge normally while both driving and at idle ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    I meant D+ post in the alternator not the wire.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  25. #25
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    This problem is solved. The issue was the D+ wiring. We checked using the diode test with the multimeter after disconnecting the d+ wire from the back of the alternator. The diodes were fine. Traced the wiring by opening up the wiring panel under the wipers. Found a bunch of ground wires burnt. One live wire and another signal wire too. All unrelated to the alternator. No idea when that happened but there was a smell of burnt plastic when the wire panel was opened up, so might have been recent to coincide with all the electrical shit that had been happening.

    Cut some unneeded ones off, redid the insulation for others all the way to the ecu box. No damaged wires going into the engine side of the harness but we were prepared to take that out and see if necessary. Started up engine and have been driving for 3 days now. The alternator is charging normally, both on the move, and at idle, both when first started up, and started up some time after the engine was initially driven. Charging voltages are also more stable at about 13.8-14.2volts. No trickling down over time (no trickling down also when the D+ wire was unhooked and the car was driven for a few days, before the wire repair). Battery symbol shuts off after startup and stays off.

    The diagnosis is that the D+ wire was shorting to ground and bleeding off at least 0.5 volts to 1 volt of charging current while at idle. Location of the short was in the wire bundle right under the windshield.

    I wanted to be absolutely sure before posting the fixt. I am now. Thanks you to everyone who helped.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Mod please assist to add the words " Solved (D+ wiring)" to my thread title. Thanks.

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