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Thread: E36/46 Press-in Stud Hub Conversion...

  1. #1
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    E36/46 Press-in Stud Hub Conversion...

    Hey guys,

    Just wanted to share something that I've been working on as a result of my time campaigning in the American Endurance Racing series ("AER"
    http://americanenduranceracing.com/), where the most popular car is easily the E36, with E46 then E30 not far behind. In AER we race two 9 hour races over the course of a weekend with an 8 hour practice and qualifying session the day before.

    What I'm offering is brand new OEM BMW front and rear hubs that are modified to accept ARP press-in studs and pre-installed with them. It is a complete set with 2 different stud length options depending on what spacer size you need. You also have the option to get just the front or the rear pairs alone. If you're running those insanely expensive Z3 non-M rear hubs, PM me and I can work out something for you to send them in to me.

    Currently the hubs I started with are; Front- E36 (all), E46 (non-M), Z4 (non-M), Z3 (all). Rear- E36 M3, E46 (non-M), Z3M, and I think a couple of other oddball ones. E46 M3 is next on the agenda with something even better brewing. PM me for details on that.

    See more info here (with some footage of failure) on my website:
    https://www.core4motorsports.com/pro...hub-conversion


    I will also provide a greater discount to anyone that is willing to share any video and/or photo footage of thread-in stud failure that I can use



    Now, I know that this topic has been debated numerous times. I understand that there will be apprehension from some for something like this. I know there will many who have had zero issues with thread-ins, and some of you may have had them fail in only hours (a few cases in AER). I know some will argue that there's no real benefit to a press-in vs a thread-in since an M12 is an M12. And then some understand that there's a fundamental advantage to a press-in vs a thread-in stud in it's ability to handle atypical loading scenarios, no risk of the stud backing out, no stress risers, very low % of user installation error, etc. I'm not saying press-in studs are indestructible as nothing is, but based on experience, they are far less susceptible to failure, and based on my conversations with ARP and MSI, they agree. And I believe many people service their studs too often than required because of this paranoia of potential failure.

    So a little more background of where we're coming from here; just about every single AER weekend there is a BMW thread-in wheel stud failure that occurs and sometimes a complete wheel loss (see videos in product gallery on the web page). There have been no reported failures on cars that run press-in wheel studs; this is cars that come from the factory with press-in studs (JDM, American; Corvette, Mustang, Nissan, Honda, etc.), and BMW cars that have already modified their hubs to use press-in studs with 100's of hours of track time. Every single brand of high strength thread-in stud has been broken (BW, Turner, MSI, Apex, etc.) by one team or another.

    Much discussion has already happened on the AER FB group page about this issue ad nauseam so please join the group and search there if you want more info. I can also forward you to people who experienced these failures first hand and have thousands of laps on their cars in the last 2 or 3 years. These failures are not isolated to any one instance, i.e.- stud installation torque, when installing a wheel, hot or cold torquing, major offs, etc.

    With that said, I know many of you will argue serviceability. Press-in studs can be changed with the hub still on the front of the car with the removal of the dust shield/backing plate. The rear I still need to confirm 100%. And by the nature of how thread-ins typically fail flush at the hub face combined with being red-loctited in or equivalent, it's no cake walk drilling out 190,000+ psi tensile strength material. If (if) a press-in breaks, you hammer it out with a punch and pull the new one in (even though that's not recommended by the mfg's, it works).

    Anyway, I'll shut up for now. Hopefully this is an ok spot to post this. If not, I apologize and let me know a better place to post.

    Last edited by Gills; 01-18-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  2. #2
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    Is it a problem that needs solving? ... I dunno. It's an option for those that want it I guess, and maybe in 24 hr racing with 4 wheel changes ... but we've been running 90mm Bimmerworld studs for years, and yes, sometimes they do fail (since we swap wheels A LOT in a weekend), but it happens when changing a wheel, and replacing that takes like 5 minutes (heat is a wonderful thing ... never had to drill them once), then you're good to go.

    also, you'll never get the rear studs in from behind the hub, must be removed unless thy're sure short, so a stud change means bearing change (as typically the bearings get destroyed when removing the hub).

    A good set of thread-in studs, properly installed and not overtorqued, replaced annually, simply have no reason to fail ... unless you forget to torque your nuts, then nothing will help you If you use 20 year old stud, then yeah, they will probably fail. $200/ year is small price to pay if you ask me
    Check out the 8legs Racing page: https://www.facebook.com/8legsRacing/


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    Understanding any of these can break, I like the fact that a screw in takes 5 minute change.

  4. #4
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    I went through this thought 20 years ago when I started tracking my E30M3,,, I came from the 'merican muscle car world. I couldnt fathom screw in studs.
    Wanted to convert my track car to what I believed were "real" race tested (IMO) Moroso press in studs.
    I didnt.

    In 20 years of trackiing I personally have only ever had one broken screw in stud and it was "old".
    I dont even change them on a PM type regular basis. Definitely not yearly or even every other year.

    Hubcentricity(sp?) of the wheels plays a huge factor in stud life,,, not sure what wheels these guys are using that are having all kinds of stud failures.
    My bet is also over torquing / not torquing when hot. I see guys do all sorts of things in the paddock with wheel nuts that I wouldnt do.
    Last edited by jimmypet; 01-19-2019 at 12:56 PM.
    jimmy p.


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    I understand these aren’t for everyone and some won't see this as a benefit. This is a solution to a documented problem in a series that I race in where there's 15-20 HPDE's worth of track time in a single weekend. Several teams who had consistent issues with breaking studs and in some instances losing wheels on track have had zero issues to date since switching over to this style. Almost all teams don't do tire changes during a race either, unless absolutely necessary since we're not allowed to change tires in the hot pit. Wheels are usually installed in the morning and never touched for 9 hours of racing. There has been discussion and polls in the AER FB group trying to identify root cause; hub installation torque, wheel brand (concentricity is what you're thinking of...), stud brand, wheel torque, hot and cold, etc.. One team even had their studs sent out for metallurgical testing.

    Again, this isn't wheel studs just breaking while torquing. This IS ON TRACK under race conditions.

    Some sample on-track failure videos if you didn't see on website:
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/c2...p/mp4/file.mp4
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/c2...p/mp4/file.mp4


    While I won’t say ARP press-in studs will never break, because nothing in life is definite, based on the AER database of multiple 1000's of laps it is far less likely. Track cars that log lots of track time should have the bearings time out before studs do. The only people who worry excessively about being able to change a wheel stud if one breaks are M12 studded BMW's. And the rear hub stud change while on the car is a real possibility given that the ebrake is not on the car and the back plate is notched in between the caliper mounting ears. Still need to confirm.

    But again, I understand the apprehension as it’s not for everyone, I’m not looking to convince and convert everyone. I understand some have had zero problems with theirs. But there are some people out there who would like to eliminate what I consider a legitimate concern. Whether or not the market agrees is a risk I'm willing to take.

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    Getting ours next week. I have seen studs break on track, and the consequences. This is a fantastic solution to a problem that, while not incredibly frequent, can cause major damage. The pricing is excellent also. It is slightly more than a new bearing with screw in studs. Not sure what the exact number is, but for the peace of mind, it is negligible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, anyone saying, well, it’s never happened to me, then why do you wear a fire suit? Car fires a pretty rare. It is not sound reasoning.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
    I understand these aren’t for everyone and some won't see this as a benefit. This is a solution to a documented problem in a series that I race in where there's 15-20 HPDE's worth of track time in a single weekend. Several teams who had consistent issues with breaking studs and in some instances losing wheels on track have had zero issues to date since switching over to this style. Almost all teams don't do tire changes during a race either, unless absolutely necessary since we're not allowed to change tires in the hot pit. Wheels are usually installed in the morning and never touched for 9 hours of racing. There has been discussion and polls in the AER FB group trying to identify root cause; hub installation torque, wheel brand (concentricity is what you're thinking of...), stud brand, wheel torque, hot and cold, etc.. One team even had their studs sent out for metallurgical testing.

    Again, this isn't wheel studs just breaking while torquing. This IS ON TRACK under race conditions.

    Some sample on-track failure videos if you didn't see on website:
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/c2...p/mp4/file.mp4
    https://video.wixstatic.com/video/c2...p/mp4/file.mp4


    While I won’t say ARP press-in studs will never break, because nothing in life is definite, based on the AER database of multiple 1000's of laps it is far less likely. Track cars that log lots of track time should have the bearings time out before studs do. The only people who worry excessively about being able to change a wheel stud if one breaks are M12 studded BMW's. And the rear hub stud change while on the car is a real possibility given that the ebrake is not on the car and the back plate is notched in between the caliper mounting ears. Still need to confirm.

    But again, I understand the apprehension as it’s not for everyone, I’m not looking to convince and convert everyone. I understand some have had zero problems with theirs. But there are some people out there who would like to eliminate what I consider a legitimate concern. Whether or not the market agrees is a risk I'm willing to take.
    Very well said. I appreciate your approach.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
    Getting ours next week. I have seen studs break on track, and the consequences. This is a fantastic solution to a problem that, while not incredibly frequent, can cause major damage. The pricing is excellent also. It is slightly more than a new bearing with screw in studs. Not sure what the exact number is, but for the peace of mind, it is negligible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, anyone saying, well, it’s never happened to me, then why do you wear a fire suit? Car fires a pretty rare. It is not sound reasoning.
    Everything is risk vs cost analysis. But there is no comparison between fire and smoke in a car and a broken wheel stud.
    Last edited by aeronaut; 01-20-2019 at 09:54 AM.

  8. #8
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    I dunno, I have lost a wheel (not lug related) an had it happened 1/8 mile later, it would have been as serious as a fire.

  9. #9
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    I wanted to chime in here with my experience and quick question regarding this topic. I am the proud new owner of a 2003.5 LSB E46 track car. I just picked it up from Atlanta and trailered it back to NJ over the new year. It was already fairly modded for HPDE driving and I am underway with stripping the remaining stuff out, HVAC, headlights, dash, airbags, etc.

    I bought this E46 track car because this past August while tracking my 997 turbo I sheared all 5 left rear wheel studs. I lost the tire and wheel completely on T4 Thunderbolt, very fast right hander. Lets just say, 3 point seat belts, no cage or roll bar, 40K in damage, I'm lucky I'm alive. I decided, with some pleading from my wife, to forget the street car and get a dedicated track car since I am doing over 15 days a year now.

    So, these things break, I experienced a very bad failure. This E46 has wheel studs, I don't know how old or whose they are. I want to pull them out.

    Question is....... Why don't we just go back to using OEM wheel bolts?? I don't think I have ever heard of someone's wheel bolts breaking? I was thinking of getting 1 MSI stud on each corner and using 4 wheel bolts.

    Good idea??


    This is a sensitive topic to me so your feedback is greatly appreciated.
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  10. #10
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    Some might say...

    Low probability, low impact: who cares...
    High probability, low impact: perform preventative maintenance to reduce the probability
    High probability, high impact: avoid the circumstance entirely
    Low probability, high impact, get press-in wheel studs

  11. #11
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    I'm installing those in the front of my E36 M3 for next racing season.
    As Jadkar mentioned I use the OEM bolts in the back. 20 year old bolts and never a problem. Maybe I'm lucky...
    I also torque my wheels to 72 ft-lb, cold. Some think I'm insane but based on results, I think its OK since I never broke a stud, or bolt, in 10 years of tracking and racing.

    I held that part in my hands and the hole is slightly larger that the stud diameter which means the stress concentration at the shoulder of a conventional stud has just evaporated. If the wheels are torqued correctly (Whatever that means to you), the wheel is round,... the studs will outlast the bearing 99.99% of the time.

    Racing is hard on equipment and this is the biggest failure point I see on BMW race cars besides engine / cooling issues.

  12. #12
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    Jadkar,
    Congrats on the dedicated track car.
    While we are on the subject of safety, make sure the safety equipment is installed by a pro. The premium is worth it. I'm talking race seat, cage and belts mainly.
    I see installations as an instructor, and racer, that raise the hair on my back. I believe TC Kline is close to you...
    Last edited by Franky goes; 01-07-2020 at 09:03 PM.

  13. #13
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    Just want to plug Core4 again.
    My team just finished our first year of endurance racing with WRL. As far as I know, we were the only ones this year to run Tom's studs. I think there were about ten to fifteen screw in stud failures that I personally saw on BMW's. Some just ended up with a floppy wheel. But, they lost valuable time in the pit changing out studs, and likely ruined wheels. Some ended with serious damage to the car, either from hitting a wall, or from the tire coming off and busting and bending up body work.
    My team had zero issues, ever. When I suggested these hubs to my teammates, they thought I was totally crazy. After all of the lost podiums and damaged cars we saw this year, every single one of them have changed their tune completely. Yes, it costs more in the short term. but the life of the ARP studs is far better than any screw in, and they are less expensive. If you change your screw ins one time during the life of your bearing, you have exceeded the cost of getting core4 bearings. If you lose a wheel due to screw ins braking, you have exceeded the cost of Tom's bearings.
    IF I have to run studs (stock wheel bolts are equally as good) this is the only way to go.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by jadkar View Post



    Question is....... Why don't we just go back to using OEM wheel bolts?? I don't think I have ever heard of someone's wheel bolts breaking? I was thinking of getting 1 MSI stud on each corner and using 4 wheel bolts.

    Good idea??


    This is a sensitive topic to me so your feedback is greatly appreciated.
    Stock wheel bolts are every bit as strong and reliable as ARP studs. Some rules require studs. That is why my team runs the Core4 hubs. having studs also makes tire changes a bit faster. We don't change tires often during a race, but it is nice for when we do.

    Sorry about your car, and glad you decided not to quit. I have personally seen two cars completely smashed because of this issue. Not something I want to deal with.

  15. #15
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Franky goes View Post
    Jadkar, I believe TC Kline is close to you...
    TCK's shop is in Dublin, OH, adjacent to Columbus.

    Neil

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    For HPDE I may just go back to lug nuts or possibly using 1 stud and for lugs. The concern of replacement costs (potentially 100-200 every few years) as well as concern over stud failure is not worth the 5 minutes per event that studs save me in convenience. Anyone else make the same change?

  17. #17
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    I have considered this. Especially now that I trailer and don't do 2-3 SPEED changes of wheels every weekend at the track (all 4 changed in less than 4 minutes, including jacking and torquing, is my 'record'. lol).

    I've only broken one at the track, and one in the garage after a track weekend. I'm on the "change them all every 2 years" schedule.

  18. #18
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    Hey all,

    Tom from Core4 here.

    @Jadkar: Sorry to hear about your incident. That sounds pretty brutal and glad that you're alive and well. Way to persevere and keep at it with the new build! It should be noted that your failure was with M14 sized hardware since it was a Porsche, which many think is the end all solution in the BMW world (M12 to M14). Obviously the size increase alone of the M14 is worth a decent safety factor increase and failures are more rare, but there is still the issue of stress concentrations at points of peak bending stress inherent with a thread-in. And, bending stress/fatigue is what kills these studs as every single broken stud that is shared with me for analysis show this failure mode. Not overloading from tightening (this is extremely difficult to do in a conical/spherical lug seat application, and if one has experienced breaking a stud while tightening at a typical torque, it is almost guaranteed it was compromised/fatigued in previous service). One of our fellow teams in AER running an E46 M3 broke their M14 thread-in upgrade at the Mid-Ohio race last October in the waning hours of the race as well.

    If you have any questions whatsoever about possibly going with a set of hubs for your E46, please don't hesitate to reach out. I can fill you in on more info and maybe sweeten the deal if you're on the fence. I also want to note, much to contrary belief it is simple to change a press-in wheel stud with the hubs on the car, and yes, even on the rear with our newer 75mm Core4/MSI stud.

    So to beat the dead horse, the very nature of how thread-in studs need to bottom to prevent screwing in further, regardless of whatever provision stops them (big shoulders, small shoulders, radii, standard transitions, etc.) will always make them fail sooner than a press-in stud, and yes, even an OEM type wheel bolt. Wheel bolts are more robust and have better fatigue resistance than a thread-in. It's just that they can be a PITA to deal with as mentioned and many organizations require studs.

    @Bionicbelly: Thank you for sharing your experience! ARP's are most certainly share the top of the mountain when it comes to fasteners. Their manufacturing techniques and stud strength is only matched by MSI. Both exceed grade 12.9 strength specifications by a significant margin, which makes their clamping capacity (the single most important parameter of how studs/bolts resist external loads) unfathomable to most people. I believe there are a few other teams that are running our hubs with you in WRL (Northloop Motorsports, Thunderbunny Racing). We also had three teams running our hubs in this years 25 Hours of Thunderhill. One in ES class, two in E2. Zero failures. Each of these teams had multiple failures in previous years, one of them stripped of the top podium step with 15 minutes left.


    I know a few of you may think I'm talking out of my ass, but I've also been doing a ton of research, engineering analysis, testing and collaboration on this topic (I'm an ME by day if that means anything). I've written a quick article in regards to this that will evolve over time as I complete more tests (elevated temperatures, etc.) that may be interesting for some: www.core4motorsports.com/tech

    -Tom

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    That article is excellent. I immediately went down and checked all my wheel sets for galling.

    Our problem has been loss of torque at the lug nuts (initial 90 ft-lb) because the studs back out just a tiny bit (less than 1/8 of a turn, we mark them now when installed) despite careful double-nut torqueing (23ft-lb) and red loctite at installation and religious re-checking of lug nut torque during the day.

    The problem manifests as lug nuts that are down a small amount, maybe 5-10ft-lb after the first run of the day, for absolutely no reason. We started thinking we were forgetting to torque the lug nuts or something. Then once we started marking the studs after installation, we realized that we were losing torque at the lug nuts because the stud was moving. We removed them all, cleaned the threads in the hub, re-installed, re-torqued and re-loctited and we were having no more problems for the rest of the weekend but that little voice was in my head at that point and I lost confidence in the car.

    Press-in M14 studs might be the answer. Probably don't have to think about them at all. Set and forget.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
    I also want to note, much to contrary belief it is simple to change a press-in wheel stud with the hubs on the car, and yes, even on the rear with our newer 75mm Core4/MSI stud.


    -Tom

    This is indeed true. I dinged up the threads on one of our rears, and changed it out in less than ten minutes. I have also watched someone have to use a drill and an easy out on thread in studs. So yeah, if you can thread it out it may be faster, but if all the loctite on the screw in stud won't allow it, press ins are actually faster.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by emoore924 View Post
    Press-in M14 studs might be the answer. Probably don't have to think about them at all. Set and forget.
    This. With the number of failures I have seen in person and on youtube, I don't want to think about it. I have plenty of other stuff to do and think about.

    Here is a little tip my team and I have used that seems to work well to keep costs down. Buy FAG bearings from FCP, and send those to Tom. He can machine them and get them set up, and when they go bad, repeat. This way, you don't have to buy a new bearing, it is covered under warranty.

  21. #21
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    I'll stick with my $100 studs I change every two years. Just not worth it IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by golgo13 View Post
    I'll stick with my $100 studs I change every two years. Just not worth it IMO.
    Then you really aren't doing the math. If you send in your stuff, it is 75 bucks a wheel, including studs. So, 300 bucks for new studs vs. 150-200. That is 75 bucks a year to make sure your wheels don't fall off.
    If you need bearings anyway, the price is negligible. New FAG bearings are ~ 300 bucks.
    If you don't need bearings, it wouldn't make as much sense.

  23. #23
    NeilM is offline Member BMW E36 M3 Expert
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gills View Post
    I know a few of you may think I'm talking out of my ass, but I've also been doing a ton of research, engineering analysis, testing and collaboration on this topic (I'm an ME by day if that means anything). I've written a quick article in regards to this that will evolve over time as I complete more tests (elevated temperatures, etc.) that may be interesting for some: www.core4motorsports.com/tech

    -Tom
    Yeah, excellent article.

    But crap, isn't it just one more thing to worry about! I've used anti-seize on wheel stud threads (and derated their tightening torque accordingly), because friction. Now you convincingly point out that lubing the conical mating surfaces to avert galling of the wheel material, plus maybe clean, dry fastener threads to maintain friction, is likely better logic.

    Neil

  24. #24
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    Informative article, written in a common sense way, thanks!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bionicbelly View Post
    Then you really aren't doing the math. If you send in your stuff, it is 75 bucks a wheel, including studs. So, 300 bucks for new studs vs. 150-200. That is 75 bucks a year to make sure your wheels don't fall off.
    If you need bearings anyway, the price is negligible. New FAG bearings are ~ 300 bucks.
    If you don't need bearings, it wouldn't make as much sense.
    The only math I'm doing here is looking at what it costs me to replace studs only, not including wheel bearings. How often are people replacing those along with their studs? I can see how the cost might make more sense if you're bundling more than just the studs though.

    Glad to see there's another option on the market either way!

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