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Thread: Fan Modification for V8 e39 cars

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by computiNATEor View Post
    Their fan shroud is just a nice square and flat piece of aluminum with a very small amount of brackets that do not replicate the factory pieces. Their expansion tank is a nice square and flat aluminum box with two outlets at the bottom and one cap at the top.

    Is it nice stuff? Yes. Does it fit? Not really.

    The factory fan shroud attaches to the car in 9 ways:
    Attachment 644143

    Guess how many of those 9 ways to attach to a radiator Zionsville chose to use?

    Zero.

    Instead, you must drill into the soft aluminum radiator core and rivet or riv-nut the shroud into it. And the aluminum shroud is not lightweight; it's definitely heavier than the fiberglass/plastic factory shroud and expansion tank. It places considerable strain on the already not-super-strong radiators. If you want to spend $600+ on an all aluminum radiator, go for it. In my opinion, though, you should definitely just drop in a factory M5 radiator; it's an exact fit and a nice upgrade for any E39.

    In addition to its mechanical failings, read my thread about the "wiring" that Zionsville sent with my (wasted) $800 fan shroud + expansion tank. I threw it all in the garbage and went back to factory components.
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...wiring-diagram
    Hmmm, is that m5 radiator only a direct fit for V8 I guess?

    And the 88 degrees thermostat mod mentioned here. Is that the one where you drill a hole through it or something?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AusE39er View Post
    Hmmm, is that m5 radiator only a direct fit for V8 I guess?

    And the 88 degrees thermostat mod mentioned here. Is that the one where you drill a hole through it or something?
    The M5 rad should drop in anything. Gotta keep your shroud. That said, really an unmodified M54B25 shoudn't be overloading the stock radiator in any way, I doubt you'd get any benefit from the swap.

    The 88C we are talking about here is a thermostat from a Euro diesel motor, so it doesn't have the MAP plug on it.

    I imagine you could comb the BMW parts bin for a similar swap for M54's, (presumably looking at M57 thermostats) although it might entail thermostat surgery to transplant the actual core bits. The diesel t-stats tend to be exactly right for slightly downgrading a petrol engine. I do know there are 'racing thermostats' for M5x motors but some of those are absolutely stupid cold (too cold = more engine wear = bad) to run on the street.

    I would not recommend the hole-drill method, but JimLev heat treated his t-stat spring to adjust its temp and has been running it like that for ages.

    On some factory DME calibrations you need to make some edits or else you get a CEL from the engine operating in the wrong range. That would be true for an M54 I am fairly certain.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post

    I would not recommend the hole-drill method, but JimLev heat treated his t-stat spring to adjust its temp and has been running it like that for ages.
    ^_No, it was only used for a short term test. It didn't work out as well as I hoped so I removed it and put the 105ºC t-stat back in. However this time I built an adjustable PWM circuit that powers the t-stat heater so I can set the temp as low as 80ºC if I wanted too. I usually have it set to the 95ºC. It's built into the same box that controls my PWM shroud mounted fan, along with the circuit that keeps the fan running for 5 min after I shut the engine off.

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    Ahhh my bad, I thought you still had that in conjunction with all the other good stuff...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    ^_No, it was only used for a short term test. It didn't work out as well as I hoped so I removed it and put the 105ºC t-stat back in. However this time I built an adjustable PWM circuit that powers the t-stat heater so I can set the temp as low as 80ºC if I wanted too. I usually have it set to the 95ºC. It's built into the same box that controls my PWM shroud mounted fan, along with the circuit that keeps the fan running for 5 min after I shut the engine off.
    So you ditched the shortened/heated spring 105°C ? and basically are just fooling the electrostat into "sport" mode but pulse-controlled at your leisure/desire?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Question II: I got a 80°C stat for the iron block M52. Is that too cold? Original is 92°C
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  6. #31
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    Yup, ditched the heated spring t-stat. With a PWM circuit I can pick the temp I want.
    I wanted to lower the coolant system pressure after the upper house split.
    Now that I'm not living at sea level (at 5300' elevation and 10K+ is right up the road) water boils at a lower temp.

    Yes, I'd say 80ºC is a bit low.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Yup, ditched the heated spring t-stat. With a PWM circuit I can pick the temp I want.
    I wanted to lower the coolant system pressure after the upper house split.
    Now that I'm not living at sea level (at 5300' elevation and 10K+ is right up the road) water boils at a lower temp.

    Yes, I'd say 80ºC is a bit low.
    Nice electronic chops!

    BTW I may get a 88°C for a M51, that way I will be violating the BMW law in the same way: two diesel tstats on corresponding derivative gas engines
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  8. #33
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    There's some cool charts and research on operating temperature vs engine efficiency knocking around that are always interesting to look at.

    Amateur basement dweller always think "efficiency" means "gas mileage" and that "gas mileage is for pussies I just want to make more POWAHHHH!!!!" however, of course for the most part, when talking combustion, more-efficiency=more-power... so... too cold, not better by any stretch, and, from some engineering perspectives, indeed "hotter is better". The M62TU factory op temps and rad pressures causing wear and tear on the plastic parts etc. etc. are a different story of course that we all lament.

    I think ideal compromise - emissions and gas-mileage aside - is anything 80-ish to low-90's. The 88C works genius...
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    There's some cool charts and research on operating temperature vs engine efficiency knocking around that are always interesting to look at.

    Amateur basement dweller always think "efficiency" means "gas mileage" and that "gas mileage is for pussies I just want to make more POWAHHHH!!!!" however, of course for the most part, when talking combustion, more-efficiency=more-power... so... too cold, not better by any stretch, and, from some engineering perspectives, indeed "hotter is better". The M62TU factory op temps and rad pressures causing wear and tear on the plastic parts etc. etc. are a different story of course that we all lament.

    I think ideal compromise - emissions and gas-mileage aside - is anything 80-ish to low-90's. The 88C works genius...
    I agree for the most part. Regarding OT's, going past 95°C was merely to squeeze out some better emissions/mileage numbers AND get away with the embarrasing "lifetime" fluids thing for saving 3% in oil changes under warranty. My 540i works great with the 88°C. I was actually afraid of driving it when ambient temp was below 19°C. Now I just came back from an almost 3k miles vacation drive thru the mountains in the hot pre-summer months... It was the "I'm keeping the car" mod for me.
    Now the 523i operates steady and happily at 95°C under summer city slow traffic conditions, and stays there if you pummel her (well, "pummel" a M52B50, you know... like trying to race an M5 with an E30 325i) so I might just leave her alone, or drop the 88°C and see if she's happier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    ^_No, it was only used for a short term test. It didn't work out as well as I hoped so I removed it and put the 105ºC t-stat back in. However this time I built an adjustable PWM circuit that powers the t-stat heater so I can set the temp as low as 80ºC if I wanted too. I usually have it set to the 95ºC. It's built into the same box that controls my PWM shroud mounted fan, along with the circuit that keeps the fan running for 5 min after I shut the engine off.
    So interestingly enough, on the m54, the map thermostat actually is pwm controller. Might be on the m62 as well - I always assumed it was on/off, but never looked all that close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
    So interestingly enough, on the m54, the map thermostat actually is pwm controller. Might be on the m62 as well - I always assumed it was on/off, but never looked all that close.
    INdeed it is. (PWM controlled) like the electric fan.
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    In that case you could just set the map to whatever temperature you want and the DME should send the right pwm signal to achieve that temperature.

  13. #38
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    Absolutely. Bears some looking into I think...
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  14. #39
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    I think the maps for the e-stat on the M54 is already figured out and is documented here: https://www.ms4x.net/index.php?title...ired_Temp_Maps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerraPhantm View Post
    So interestingly enough, on the m54, the map thermostat actually is pwm controller. Might be on the m62 as well - I always assumed it was on/off, but never looked all that close.
    Quote Originally Posted by blackknight530i View Post
    I think the maps for the e-stat on the M54 is already figured out and is documented here: https://www.ms4x.net/index.php?title...ired_Temp_Maps.
    You're correct. However, I think there is limited value in modifying the thermostat operation for M54s. I had modified the thermostat operating temps when I had my first 530i. There is a fairly large fuel economy hit when the engine isn't fully warm, actually. Like 3-5 mpg at ~85 vs ~95 (stock). And since pretty much any E39 that's driven a fair amount is probably well into its second cooling system, the hoses shouldn't be ancient. And, when you do warm up the engine with spirited driving, the PWM thermostat drops engine temps automatically, as low as 80ºC, reducing the risk of cooling system failure in high temps. Also, I suspect the I6 in general has lower underhood temps vs the V8, with half the exhaust (albeit with cats) and a smaller footprint in the engine bay overall.
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  16. #41
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    Thanks for that Nate-man. Good data point.

    The difference is that the M54 MAP thermostat runs at sub-100C temps all the time anyway, which is why indeed I can imagine that mod is less useful there. Your observations re: efficiency are a good demonstration that this is not a "stupid for emissions only" thing like the hayseeds would have you believe; its' a clever engine management concept and sounds like a great idea, just perhaps poorly executed for the M62. As you say, engine bay cooling and whatnot being contributing factors but also I wonder if they failed to consider bumping engineering requirements for things like expansion tanks / radiators when they implemented the 100's op temps. In my observation, there's a latency too (as you'd expect) that takes some seconds to take effect and therefore generally in practice the "lower temps at WOT" has very little impact in terms of overall operating time. Really the T-stat is operating at the top end of the range almost all the time.

    If you set the E39 calibrations to a max temp like say 95, and then maybe had a more rapid fall-off on activation to a broad plateau of say, 85-88, then left the bottom end values of the map at max-cold (80C or whatever that is...) that might be a pretty good no-hardware solution, and indeed should have a notable impact on reducing average system temp/pressure and engine bay temps.
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    Very nice and intuitive. I still prefer my Spal setup for extra room and no load on WP bearing but it definitely looks like fan blade design is better than OEM. It looks similar to Spal fan blade design. I just turned 5 years on my 528 setup so it's definitely proven design by now. I've just done it on my M5 so it's my 4th setup.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW540san View Post
    no load on WP bearing
    That's an imaginary concern. Its about as impactful as "increased engine mount wear from the forward thrust of an engine mounted propeller". Not a thing. The seal fails. That's not contributed to in any meaningful way by the visco fan being there or not.

    Otherwise agree about gaining space and fan blade design.
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  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMW540san View Post
    no load on WP bearing
    ^_I wouldn't say it's imaginary. You are removing 5lbs of mass hanging on the front of the shaft. While it isn't a big load it accounts for something.

    Didn't know the t-stat heater got a PWM sig. That most likely is only going to function when the engine is under load and the temp is rising. Easier to keep the temp low than it is to bring it down once it is at 108º+ and rising.
    With an electric fan running all the time (my setup), not just switching on/off, it is constantly moving heat out from under the hood to keep all of that (now expensive) plastic from crumbling.
    Hope this doesn't turn into another oil thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    That's an imaginary concern. Its about as impactful as "increased engine mount wear from the forward thrust of an engine mounted propeller". Not a thing. The seal fails. That's not contributed to in any meaningful way by the visco fan being there or not.

    Otherwise agree about gaining space and fan blade design.
    Respect for you GG but my claim is based on science not guessing:
    https://www.haydenauto.com/Fan%20Clu...1/Content.aspx
    It's simple really, being on same shaft, either failure (WP or fan clutch) will affect the other as they claim in article. No fan clutch, no extra load on WP bearing.
    Last edited by BMW540san; 01-24-2019 at 12:39 PM.

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    The water pump bearings on my original motor were garbage, the shaft had a tons of play in it, but it didn't leak at all.

  22. #47
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    Who made those $$$$ water pumps for the i6 engines that everybody was praising?
    I've read more than a few posts about the bearing crapping out in them too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Who made those $$$$ water pumps for the i6 engines that everybody was praising?
    I've read more than a few posts about the bearing crapping out in them too.
    Yep. I had a failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    That's an imaginary concern. Its about as impactful as "increased engine mount wear from the forward thrust of an engine mounted propeller". Not a thing. The seal fails. That's not contributed to in any meaningful way by the visco fan being there or not.

    Otherwise agree about gaining space and fan blade design.
    I don't think I agree. In the E46 non-M world, the cars that came with the electric fan typically get a good bit more life out of the water pumps.

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    As per Jim's beautifully plotted chart, the pressure goes nuts if you go past 100ºC (operating temperature) So if you car run consistently below 100ºC I'd advise to leave things as is. Especially for a daily driver car. Now, track dedicated and other special use cars, we could sit and argue. The fuel mileage does get really worse unless you're on a roadtrip.
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