OK Kidz, time for yet another ridiculous post on E39 minutia that no human being has any possible justification to waste brain cells on...
Few months ago I got a haul of parts out of a to-be-junked car, and as I was preparing to add them to the GG-hoarder-stockpile, it became clear my E39 shelves needed a good overhaul. In theory this meant 1. full inventory, 2. sorting by general categories to make crap easier to find (you always mean to do this but over time stuff gets messed up it seems...), and 3. toss out stupid stuff that I'll never need / is total crap.
OK well 2 out of 3 ain't bad. Hey I think I tossed some used rear brake pads and uh, maybe a chunk of busted trim or something... (stupid hoarder-genes, got 'em from one of my grannies... that lady collected all kinda stuffz) .
Anyway, so one category of parts-pile was pedal parts. As I was sorting them out, I had a much closer look at the parts I had and took the time to really check out what was going on between the early / 'transition' / facelift pedal brackets, and as I did I thought I'd snap a pic or two and toss up a rundown on what's-what with the what-what. I was interested to note that the 'interim' bracket is a little more different than I'd realized. It really is a full-facelift bracket aside from having an accel pedal axle on it.
Behold. An "Interim Pedal Bracket" vs "Early Pedal Bracket" in all their glory.
(disregard the fact that the accel pot for the interim is next to the early bracket, that's just rattling around in the box.)
Here's a rundown of the differences in the bracketology. I have highlighted using bold and different colors for running changes when there are any.
* = I have seen pictures of facelift 2-bolt brackets using the early mechanical switches. Its unclear to me if this is an "early-interim vs late-interim" change, or, if it is model/engine based, i.e. did some base engine cars still get the early pedal switch package on the late bracket, while the newer full-DBW engined cars got the hall sensor? Dunno... if somebody answers that I'll update the post.
Feature Early Interim Facelift Notes Retaining Bolts 4 2 2 Brake pedal axle Shared w clutch pedal Offset / unique pedal axle Same This is the biggest one. Post-DBW, the brake pedal arm becomes shorter as they shifted the pivot point down. This is why you MUST match the brake pedal to the bracket. There is no doubt to this, and no, neither the bracket nor pedal can be 'adapted', and if you put the wrong pedal on, it won't hang in the right space and will look ridiculous and be a safe-vehicle-operation issue. Accelerator Cable-throttle actuated by top-hung arm Same arm as cable pedal, but drives large potentiometer assembly mounted above No axle for accelerator pedal at all. Electrically the early top-hung & late floor-pedal modules are same and DBW DMEs are oblivious to which type of potentiometer is used, so, in fact an interim car can be (and have been) converted to a floor-DBW accel pedal. Clutch switches Large mechanical white-housings mounted above pedal on switch-brackets Clutch-master mounted hall-sensor solid-state type
*Same It would be a pretty big PITA to try to swap switch-types without swapping the main bracket due to how the various switches mount differently. Doable but you'll need all the bracketry. I'd suggest use the whole bracket that matches the switches. Clutch master cylinder Basic,
Longitudinal mounting bolts,
Large spring mechanismEquipped for sensor, Transverse mounting bolt design,
Different spring design
*Same Clutch master mounting changes entirely. You have to use the master that matches the bracket. And if you have the late style MC, you might as well use the simple sleek 2-switches-in-one clutch switch that just snaps onto the side of the MC. Brake switch Larger mechanical white same style as clutch Variation in switch type, black compact switch
*Same Perhaps the least important change.
Now some guys have said "oh you can adapt any levers or any switches to any brackets its no big deal"... well.. not so much. That brake pedal ain't compatible and never gonna be.
Here's a close up of the brake pedal difference at least... pedal axle is completely different.
And a facelift bracket ain't gonna be useful in an early cable-throttle car without a trip to the machine shop, so that's the other big no-go.
Bottom line - it remains ideal and by far easiest if all your parts match each other and the car they are going into. Failing that, its probably easiest to take a whole bracket as one piece from a non-matching car and slap it in, than to mess with too much hybridizing.
Last edited by geargrinder; 01-15-2019 at 01:31 PM.
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
priceless. Thanks!
BTW. Is there a way to regulate the relative position of brake/clutch pedals ? I mean, I'm tall and have big feet, and I'd love to have the brake and the clutch pedals lower (further into the cabin, closer to the firewall, you name it). At the same plane as the throttle pedal. I don't see a way to do so not involving cutting/welding and or fabricating, right?
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
HUH. Hey Juan did you see the pictures before? I came back in here and my pix weren't showing, although oddly they showed fine during the whole draft / preview process.
Just changed them to https links, and now seems OK - BimFo must have JUST changed to requiring https links? Ohhh that's gonna SUUUUUCK if it breaks all the old thread pix. My pix are all hosted such that the https link will work fine but if you have to change them by hand (aka the BimFo server won't just try the https instead of http) then there's gonna be LOADS of no-pix threads all over the place.
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
Question 1: Nope.
Question 2: Hmmm. Good question. You dont want to mess w/ the brake booster / master cylinders I don't think. Ideally you shorten the shafts on those but its for sure not feasible for the clutch master.
They both connect to their respective pedal arms with a single pin. If you can make that pin-hole adjustable, mechanically it should be fine.
The brake would be the easiest to mod purely because its a steel pedal arm. Doing a home cut/weld/fab to make the pivot point moveable shouldn't be too hard. Couple plates down either side that extend backwards, then slot it for the mounting pin? Or something like the way fixie bike chain adjusters work perhaps (screw adjusters on either side)?
On the other hand the plastic clutch pedal arm is trickier. Maybe take a metal brake pedal and re-fab it to match the geometry of the clutch pedal, and then do a similar thing? The other consideration there is if there's enough room at the bottom of the pedal throw to allow for the amount of reduced height that you desire. Of course you could move the slave mount point down the arm in a custom setup and then get less leverage / more throw but thats yet another mod to figure out, and moving the MC could mean hydraulic line considerations.
2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)
Former:
1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)
Yup it was fine for me before you edited them.
Regarding hidraulics, I was talkin leaving that alone. I'm leaning towards the line of reshaping. I want less leverage in the pedal side, like shortening the lower leg of the inverted S shape that the pedal axis has.
Diehard E39 driver.
I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"
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