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Thread: 1997 540i manual not smooth on 1 bank

  1. #26
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    Today I performed a leak test on the injectors and also swapped the injectors. Still the same issue.

    So technical I am almost through all possible reasons why bank 2 is that much different then bank 1. The only thing left is the clogged cat, but when I restrict the exhaust I don't see any increase in the values on both banks and I don't have any probems on high RPM.

    So is there anything else I can check? I guess not?

  2. #27
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    When you are doing the tests are you clearing the adaptations between each test.
    See post 21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    When you are doing the tests are you clearing the adaptations between each test.
    See post 21.
    Yes I am clearing adaptions each time I do some tests. I will try to loose some bolts for the cat on bank 2, But I think it will be a hard one. But on the other side we have nothing else to try anymore I can think of.

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    Bolts are stuck so I need to bring it to the garage. It's just a simple test but we have to remove the clamps with force and then do the smoothness tests.
    Another reason for this came to my mind. Can it be a small HG leak on that side? I mean there is not much else besides the cat that is different on each bank.

    Maybe One other possibility besides the HG or Cat is this. Can it still be that the timing is of on bank 2? Or will that not give this symptom. I guess we need experts on this one, but I hope someone had this issue before and solved it with timing.
    The garage doesn't believe its the HG and the cat must have enough flow because on higher RPM there is not a single problem.
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 05-01-2019 at 01:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrqrv View Post
    Bolts are stuck so I need to bring it to the garage. It's just a simple test but we have to remove the clamps with force and then do the smoothness tests.
    Another reason for this came to my mind. Can it be a small HG leak on that side? I mean there is not much else besides the cat that is different on each bank.

    Maybe One other possibility besides the HG or Cat is this. Can it still be that the timing is of on bank 2? Or will that not give this symptom. I guess we need experts on this one, but I hope someone had this issue before and solved it with timing.
    The garage doesn't believe its the HG and the cat must have enough flow because on higher RPM there is not a single problem.
    does anyone here know of M62 timing and can this symptom fit with a slightly wrong timing adjustment?

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    About the roughness readings... I tried swapping in some old used coil packs to replace some that I thought were bad. As I did that I noticed several unexpected things. The first was how much the roughness scores varied just as it idled for a few minutes. The next was how changing the coil pack for one cylinder also affected some other cylinders.

    (That reminded of truing a bicycle wheel. One cannot adjust one spoke without affecting all the others.)

    In this case I suspect it's how the system measures roughness -- meaning it might not be that precise. Just my 2 cents...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrqrv View Post
    does anyone here know of M62 timing and can this symptom fit with a slightly wrong timing adjustment?
    Do you mean the camshaft timing? That's easy on the M62. There are markings for TDC on each camshaft and the crank pulley. Plus there's the TDC locking pin. When the crank is at TDC for the start of the firing stroke on cylinder 1, the markings on all the cams should be pointing up 90 degrees relative to the surface of the head (in the plane of the cylinder bores). You must have the cam covers off to see the markings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you examined the spark plugs for bank 1 vs. bank 2? Or tired swapping coil packs between the two banks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    Do you mean the camshaft timing? That's easy on the M62. There are markings for TDC on each camshaft and the crank pulley. Plus there's the TDC locking pin. When the crank is at TDC for the start of the firing stroke on cylinder 1, the markings on all the cams should be pointing up 90 degrees relative to the surface of the head (in the plane of the cylinder bores). You must have the cam covers off to see the markings.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Have you examined the spark plugs for bank 1 vs. bank 2? Or tired swapping coil packs between the two banks?
    Yes the camshaft timing. The garage did a chain guide replacement. But I had this symptom before that. I really changed all things en did many tests that can affect bank 2.
    Changed spark plugs, coils, injectors, gaskets etc. Compression tests all was fine.
    The stupid thing is that the engine is really strong without any hesitates. The only thing that is noticeable is the roughness at idle, and the INPA roughness shows the misfiring on those cylinders on bank 2.

    So what is left. In my opinion when you read the whole story there re 2 things left, but I hope you guys come with another suspect.

    1. cat. (I still have to get the cat of for the flow test. My garage is positive it is not the cat because in all other situations then idle the flow is enough)
    2. Timing (that would be strange because the symptoms on bank 2 are exact the same as before the chain guide action)

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    Hi there, I have a 1998 740iL non-Vanos that I had the same issue with. Check out my thread here for my description https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...nders-1-4-only. I had the same thought process as you, thinking the catalytic converters were bad or that the timing was off. My engine had been misfiring at idle for years and running rich on only the passenger side cylinder bank and I ended up solving it by replacing the thermostat. Do you happen to have a check engine light, or an error message for "activation, map cooling"? That was what led me to replace the thermostat.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by oxwood View Post
    Hi there, I have a 1998 740iL non-Vanos that I had the same issue with. Check out my thread here for my description https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...nders-1-4-only. I had the same thought process as you, thinking the catalytic converters were bad or that the timing was off. My engine had been misfiring at idle for years and running rich on only the passenger side cylinder bank and I ended up solving it by replacing the thermostat. Do you happen to have a check engine light, or an error message for "activation, map cooling"? That was what led me to replace the thermostat.
    This is quiet an opening in this case! I have indeed the 139 error thermostat mapping! That error is there for years and the issue is there for years. I never replaced the thermostat because I was thinking this will affect both banks and not only one bank. This is very weird, and on my car it's only bank 2. I didn't replave the thermostat because I thought I understand the principal of this thermostat, and that would be not affecting the misfires and roughness. Besides that my temperature stays very good and it fluctuates between 99-105 degrees when it's hot, and I see it works how it is supposed to be. I think...

    But this is very weird. You talk about this in your own thread.

    "My final thoughts on this issue are that the electric heater malfunctioned in the thermostat and caused the engine computer to run the engine in open loop cycle, so the engine was running rich for long periods of time causing the computer to register misfires. This explanation takes into account that the engine ignored signals from the O2 sensors, which happens during the engine's warmup open loop mode"

    Maybe you Can explain this further. Do you mean the car runs in open loop cycle totally? The car is running great and strong so I can't imagine it is. Or does it rich out only at idle?

  11. #36
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    Interesting thoughts above. Try unplugging the lead to the thermostat -- no information from the thermostat might be better than misinformation.

    Other thoughts:

    The M62 has a camshaft timing sensor for bank 1. I'd think it would tell you if the timing had slipped. And I think all the bank 1 cylinders would show the same problem.

    I mentioned the plugs not because one might be bad, but because they can often show signs of misfiring and point to the problem. How long have new spark plugs been in the car? If they're not real new they might show some symptoms. (You can Google spark plug pics to see what normal and fouled plugs look like. Sometimes the car's computer can ID a problem and when one pulls the plugs, they look similar and normal. Other times the car might not point to a problem but the plugs might NOT look normal -- some can look different. That just happened to me.)

    And I'd still swap around coil packs from left to right. Sometimes when some of these components go bad, they don't just quit, they go out intermittently. Think of a flickering light bulb.
    Last edited by R Shaffner; 05-12-2019 at 06:52 AM. Reason: Correction

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    Today I did the thermostat replacement but the issue is exact the same. No smoothness on bank 2. At least the error 139 is gone now. I erased the adaption values also, but it's still the same.
    I replaced all items that you can think of that has any influence on bank 2, so all parts are new on that side.

    Except the cat and the O2 sensor. But the roughness is there before the O2 sensor kicks in, and all values on bank 1 are very good.

    here is the picture again how it looks like

    picture-smoothness.png

    Another weird thing I don't get is the following. I got 1 o2 sensor per bank, so I got no post sensor, Is that normal? I think there must be a post sensor also?

    picture-lambda-post-cat.png

    and here is the pre cat sensor

    pre cat.png


    The following text is from Timms Meeknet and it looks like my problem. But in that example (there is a similar picture on his site with high smoothness values on bank2) he thinks that the cat is clogged? That's the only thing I didn't try yet because many mechanical s tell me I would have problems at higher rpm when the flow was not good enough.

    'That’s obviously not right at all! I trawled this from the internet as an example. I would expect that the Adaptations were at limits on this example as cylinder 5 is hardly firing consistently. Where a cylinder fires inconsistently there will be unburnt fuel getting to the Lambda sensor - the ECU will try and lean-out the mixture but that will start to affect the other cylinders.
    my best guess is that the catalytic converter is blocked on Bank 2"
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 05-19-2019 at 12:50 PM.

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    So today I removed the cat and nothing changed. The thing I noticed today is when the engine is real cold the first minutes cilinder 1 on bank 1 is also higher. It raises to 400 and after a few minutes it lowers down to normal like 60, just like the other cilinders on bank 1.
    Bank 2 stays exact the same. Cylinder 5 is the first that raises quick to above 1000 and will be followed by cylinder 8 and later cylinder 7. Cylinder 6 stays behind but also too high.

    Just another thought. In the first minutes after a car starts is there some ECU regulation that affects the mixture? Because when I look at INPA I see that the Lambda starts after a few minutes (that's normal) so also the mixture regulation starts after a few minutes. But what is happening before the lambda kicks in? That's the question, because the roughness is there from the first minute.

  14. #39
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    I haven't looked deeply into the warm-up routine of ME7.2 but usually there's a 'cold start' enrichment factor that is added to get the car to start when coolant temp is cold. That's the equivalent of a 'full choke' on a carburetor.
    Then theres often a warm-up period that comes after that, a 'phase 2'. That's like having a choke on partial for a few minutes after startup, to extend the comparison.
    Then as you say, there's full closed-loop.

    Rough cold idle often results from vacuum leaks because the warm-up factors are now "off" due to the air leaks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    I haven't looked deeply into the warm-up routine of ME7.2 but usually there's a 'cold start' enrichment factor that is added to get the car to start when coolant temp is cold. That's the equivalent of a 'full choke' on a carburetor.
    Then theres often a warm-up period that comes after that, a 'phase 2'. That's like having a choke on partial for a few minutes after startup, to extend the comparison.
    Then as you say, there's full closed-loop.

    Rough cold idle often results from vacuum leaks because the warm-up factors are now "off" due to the air leaks.
    Yes the cold start enrichment shell be there indeed. I guess that will affect both banks. And secondly when the car is warm the roughness stays, but say like 30% better.
    The parameters all show that the ecu tries to lean out the mixture. All parameters are negative on that bank form the first start. When there was some kind of leak I guess it will be the opposite of that.

    Very difficult to think about a next step. I think I done it all but I hope someone has some new lights in this case.

    Again, the engine is really strong, no hick-ups whatever in the whole range. So it is a possibility to leave it alone. But the technical BMW heart won't let me.
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 05-26-2019 at 02:02 PM.

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    Another thought that comes to my mind. In the knowledge that the smoothness on bank 2 is bad from the start (cold) is it possible that an intake valve is leaking on a cylinder? I know I did some compression tests but I am unsure now if I did all cylinders even serious. And will it be visible with a compression test we don't know either. The smoothness fluctuation that starts after the start can be controlled by ECU with some parameters adaption but in this case it's there from the cold start directly.
    That means that the smoothness and fluctuation right after the cold start must have some other source.
    I can imagine that when a valve is not working correctly it will affect the smoothness right away without interfering from the ECU.
    And then the next question will be does it affect the other cylinders from that bank, again without interfering from the ECU. So just because 1 cylinder is firing badly it will be affecting the others and that will show up in the smoothness.

    Is this crazy? I think not. The more I think about it the more I think this could be the issue.
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 05-27-2019 at 01:48 PM.

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    Today I did some weird tests again to learn and make an opening in this issue.

    Like a few weeks ago I pulled a cylinder (5) this time and did the smoothness test again.
    When you study this picture versus the pictures and videos I send earlier I don't get the total system anymore. Cylinder 5 is logical, but what about 8? How in earth can that be zero now.


    cyl5.png

    Second weird test. I pulled the little vacuum hose from the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) and it has a major influence on the INPA smoothness picture. By example cylinder 8 that is normally very high like 700-1000, I can get to 300-400 when the vacuum hose is removed from the FPR. I know about the 3.5 Barr and 3.0 Barr idle, but this influence I get is very big and now the software is almost unusable.
    I know I am onto something here, but we need experts to make the difference.

    I ordered a leak down test just to test some cylinders. And I will try to diagnose the FPR.

    Again the engine is very strong and this is not a major problem for the ride. I want this solved just to get our technics right, mechanical and software wise. I could stop searching for this one, but then we learn nothing.

    I hope someone can break in and try to help us.
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 05-28-2019 at 03:10 PM.

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    Something else. Is it possible for a 1997 M62 to read the smootness with other software? I don't see it with Rheingold by example. That means we can only measure this with 1 peace of software for those cars?

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    So today I checked all cylinders for leakage. All measurements are very good around 10% and in the green area where it's suppose to be.
    Also replaced the fpr and vacuum hose that goes on it, all without any effect.

    What is left.

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    Forgive me if I missed this, but did you ever pull the bank 1 cam cover to confirm that the camshaft timing is correct? It's pretty straightforward on a non-VANOS engine.

    (I know you've talked about reasons why that might not be the problem, but it still could be, right?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    Forgive me if I missed this, but did you ever pull the bank 1 cam cover to confirm that the camshaft timing is correct? It's pretty straightforward on a non-VANOS engine.

    (I know you've talked about reasons why that might not be the problem, but it still could be, right?)
    You totally right. It's one of the last things I didn't check. The reason was that I had this issue before the timing guide change, so it would be very coincidence when the timing is set exact the same.
    The reason could be that the timing is somehow retarded maybe? But again this is also a 1% chance.
    But you talk about the bank 1 cam cover, do you mean bank 2?
    And secondly I did the leak test on all cylinders. When timing is of and we talk about cam timing, there must be some leakage when I test the cylinders?

    Also there is some little chance that replacing all injectors does something with the STFT (mixture) I say little change because when the integrator kicks in and it sets the STFT it's around -8. Thats's not good but not that terrible either. So when all injectors are quiet bad, you should expect that after the adjustments the ECU makes, the smoothness becomes way better.

    Again, the car runs great. This is pure technical. I never had some issue un-diagnosed in 30 years BMW experience, and I am not planning to start with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrqrv View Post
    You totally right. It's one of the last things I didn't check. The reason was that I had this issue before the timing guide change, so it would be very coincidence when the timing is set exact the same.
    The reason could be that the timing is somehow retarded maybe? But again this is also a 1% chance.
    But you talk about the bank 1 cam cover, do you mean bank 2?
    And secondly I did the leak test on all cylinders. When timing is of and we talk about cam timing, there must be some leakage when I test the cylinders?

    Also there is some little chance that replacing all injectors does something with the STFT (mixture) I say little change because when the integrator kicks in and it sets the STFT it's around -8. Thats's not good but not that terrible either. So when all injectors are quiet bad, you should expect that after the adjustments the ECU makes, the smoothness becomes way better.

    Again, the car runs great. This is pure technical. I never had some issue un-diagnosed in 30 years BMW experience, and I am not planning to start with that.
    Several more thoughts to share on this:

    I thought bank 1 was the rough one that you were concerned about. Whichever one it is, that one might be worth checking. Or both since the cylinders on one bank can and do affect the other. (The roughness test isn't that precise and measures very slight variations in speed over small arcs of crank rotation. Plus 2 cylinders on each side fire consecutively, and 2 on each side fire after those on the other side, as I understand these V8s.)

    About the compression test... That's not real precise either. Plenty of variation in those readings. More importantly, a slight variation in one or both camshafts on one bank would still produce the same/similar compression test numbers and could give that side slightly different performance while running.

    As I understand STFT numbers, those are worthless on their own. I think they are relative to the LTFT numbers. If one bank is currently running +1% STFT and -1% LTFT, that bank is currently running net 0%. If the other bank is running +10% STFT and -10% LTFT, then it is currently running net 0% too. The question in that case would by why was the LTFT for that bank so low? Was there something in the recent past that affected the LTFT but that isn't affecting the car at that moment (since the STFT is countering the LTFT for both sides)?

    And finally... It's reasonable to expect most things to wear mostly evenly, but it's not reasonable to expect everything to wear precisely evenly over this many years and miles. The most obvious example is tires. If you bought a new set and drove them until they wore out and failed, they would not all fail at the same time. That's true about every part of the car. Something is causing the pretty significant differences in your compression numbers, right? All the rings and cylinder walls are worn, and some more than others. There's carbon build-up in the cylinders and dirt/deposits in the intake and exhaust manifolds. All of that will be slightly different among the cylinders.

    In short, there's no reason to expect a well-worn engine to run as smoothly as a new one, and that roughness could easy display itself more on one bank than the other. And I would expect small differences to show up more at idle, since that is generally the slowest speed that a new engine can run steadily. If you increased the idle speed a touch you might not notice any roughness at all. (We did that a lot back in the days with carbs and idle screws.)

    So yes, it might be something that you just have to live with while you enjoy how well it is running the rest of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R Shaffner View Post
    Several more thoughts to share on this:

    I thought bank 1 was the rough one that you were concerned about. Whichever one it is, that one might be worth checking. Or both since the cylinders on one bank can and do affect the other. (The roughness test isn't that precise and measures very slight variations in speed over small arcs of crank rotation. Plus 2 cylinders on each side fire consecutively, and 2 on each side fire after those on the other side, as I understand these V8s.)

    About the compression test... That's not real precise either. Plenty of variation in those readings. More importantly, a slight variation in one or both camshafts on one bank would still produce the same/similar compression test numbers and could give that side slightly different performance while running.

    As I understand STFT numbers, those are worthless on their own. I think they are relative to the LTFT numbers. If one bank is currently running +1% STFT and -1% LTFT, that bank is currently running net 0%. If the other bank is running +10% STFT and -10% LTFT, then it is currently running net 0% too. The question in that case would by why was the LTFT for that bank so low? Was there something in the recent past that affected the LTFT but that isn't affecting the car at that moment (since the STFT is countering the LTFT for both sides)?

    And finally... It's reasonable to expect most things to wear mostly evenly, but it's not reasonable to expect everything to wear precisely evenly over this many years and miles. The most obvious example is tires. If you bought a new set and drove them until they wore out and failed, they would not all fail at the same time. That's true about every part of the car. Something is causing the pretty significant differences in your compression numbers, right? All the rings and cylinder walls are worn, and some more than others. There's carbon build-up in the cylinders and dirt/deposits in the intake and exhaust manifolds. All of that will be slightly different among the cylinders.

    In short, there's no reason to expect a well-worn engine to run as smoothly as a new one, and that roughness could easy display itself more on one bank than the other. And I would expect small differences to show up more at idle, since that is generally the slowest speed that a new engine can run steadily. If you increased the idle speed a touch you might not notice any roughness at all. (We did that a lot back in the days with carbs and idle screws.)

    So yes, it might be something that you just have to live with while you enjoy how well it is running the rest of the time.
    Thanks for this. The only thing I didn't get is the STFT story. There are too many different stories around those numbers and how to read them. And yes, it can be all due the oldness of the engine (300000km) but I am not convinced yet. But it's a good thing too keep in mind!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrqrv View Post
    Thanks for this. The only thing I didn't get is the STFT story. There are too many different stories around those numbers and how to read them. And yes, it can be all due the oldness of the engine (300000km) but I am not convinced yet. But it's a good thing too keep in mind!
    The only reason for conflicting stories about fuel trims is that someone isn't understanding it or is explaining it wrong. Here's one link that might help, but there are many more like in online that you can review:

    https://www.boosttown.com/electrical...t_fueltrim.php

    The main point I wanted to get across is that you're looking at only half of the story if you're looking at just the STFT (short-term) numbers. Those numbers are not calculated relative to zero. They are calculated relative to the LTFT (long-term) numbers. (That's just the way it's done.)

    So if you want to see what mixture a bank is getting at any moment, you must add the STFT and LTFT together. If your LTFTs are close to zero and about the same between the banks, then yes you could ignore them and focus just on the STFT. But for all other cases you MUST add the short-term and long-term numbers together to understand what the car's computer is doing at that moment, while you're watching it.

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    Oke, I will read more about this but I can already say this. When the O2 sensors kick in the lambda integrator starts to work you see bank 2 -8,-15-18-10 etc. bank 1 stays around zero like +2,-3,+1,+2 etc. After that you see the parameters change at the STFT on both banks. They are moving for a miute or so and then become static on both banks. Bank 1 around zero, bank 2 around -8. The LTFT are around zero on both banks, but slighly minus on bank 2 like -2.
    Thats the total picture each time after reset the adaptions.

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