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Thread: 1997 540i manual not smooth on 1 bank

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    1997 540i manual not smooth on 1 bank

    I have this car (300000km) for a few years and 1 bank is not smooth. It was better for a period so I didn't pay much attention to it. After a while the chain guides needed repair and the car was not used for a couple of months. I did start it once in 2 weeks, but not driving it. After the guides where replaced the car runs very strong. The timing must be good because it's really strong in all area's, low rpm mid range and high rpm. But there are misfires when I read out the ecu.
    Its always cilinder 8,7 and 5. You can see in the smoothness video that are the cilinders that are not running smooth. Cilinder 8 is the worst. It has always been the worst, also way before the chain action.

    So it is running very strong, but you can feel it's not smooth when it's shakes a little at idle.

    I did changed the coils and spark plugs but that's not it.

    My options are:

    - The injector on cilinder 8 is bad and it takes cilinder 5 and 7 with it.
    - The cat on that bank is bad, but it has no error codes in the ecu
    - The intake manifold gaskets are bad on that side

    I have 2 questions.

    - How can I determine which one to repair first
    - Are there any other logical explanaitions



    http://www.blackshalo.com/cilinder8.mp4
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 01-13-2019 at 01:57 PM.

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    If you bang on the cat does it rattle? If so the cat is breaking up inside.
    Whats your fuel pressure?
    The injector would be the easiest to change.
    If the above don't fix it then do the intake gaskets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    If you bang on the cat does it rattle? If so the cat is breaking up inside.
    Whats your fuel pressure?
    The injector would be the easiest to change.
    If the above don't fix it then do the intake gaskets.
    Ok so you think the options named have a good chance? I will bang the cat first. But is it possible it never gives an error on the o2?

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    How would you expect that cyl 8 would have an effect cyl 5 and 7?

    You may have three leaky injectors. What is the short-term fuel trim for bank 2?


    Ed in San Jose '97 540i 6 speed aspensilber over aubergine leather. Build date 3/97. Golden Gate Chapter BMW CCA Nr 62319.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    How would you expect that cyl 8 would have an effect cyl 5 and 7?

    You may have three leaky injectors. What is the short-term fuel trim for bank 2?
    I read on the forum somewhere that it may be possible when 1 cilinder is leaking very bad. I also read this same behavior when one coil is very bad, so I named it as an option. 3 leaky injectors on 1 bank seems to be unlogical also, but it is possible.

    Oke, I go and read the STFT

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    That's about 186k miles. Depending on the grade of fuel used, the injectors may be leaking.

    The stft s/b rather close to the same for both banks. If bank 2 is a large negative number, it would point to leaky injectors.


    Ed in San Jose '97 540i 6 speed aspensilber over aubergine leather. Build date 3/97. Golden Gate Chapter BMW CCA Nr 62319.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    That's about 186k miles. Depending on the grade of fuel used, the injectors may be leaking.

    The stft s/b rather close to the same for both banks. If bank 2 is a large negative number, it would point to leaky injectors.
    Thx!

    Oke here we go. It is negative on bank 2. This is the idle situation, I forget to do it at more RPM. I guess its a little rich? I guess -4 is not that bad and can we rule out the injectors then? So we still have multiple options like
    MAF sensor problems ( that would effect both banks?) , high fuel pressure( that would effect both banks?) , leaking fuel pressure regulator diaphragm ( that would effect both banks?), faulty evaporative emissions components ( that would effect both banks?) , leaking injectors, defective O2 sensors, exhaust leaks/pinholes before the O2 sensor, coolant temp sensor problems ( that would effect both banks?) , and base engine issues such as low compression and incorrect camshaft timing.

    Like I said I did have the chainguides repair, but this readings on bank 2 where there before. So I don't suspect any mechinacal issues.

    Last edited by bfrqrv; 01-15-2019 at 06:25 AM.

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    As you say, most of those things you list would be 'symmetrical' - hitting both banks.

    Yeah the negative numbers could also point to clogged cat on that side. Air is not flowing therefore too much fuel for what it thinks is "half of the total MAF reading". Also could be failing O2 sensor on that side.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    As you say, most of those things you list would be 'symmetrical' - hitting both banks.

    Yeah the negative numbers could also point to clogged cat on that side. Air is not flowing therefore too much fuel for what it thinks is "half of the total MAF reading". Also could be failing O2 sensor on that side.
    yes correct. Still I wonder if I can do some tests to determine which part to tackle first. In the end most of those issues end in replace all suspects one by one. That's why I doubt the advantage of the diagnose software.
    In this case I will start with injectors, intake gaskets, cat and maybe co2 sensor because I checked the coils and sparks. But with all the technique we have, I was hoping to narrow it down a bit more.

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    Yeah, I really doubt intake gaskets, unless you just had that stuff apart and suspect you might have made a mistake. Even then. That'd generally make one bank run lean from unmetered air. You seem to have the bad bank running rich.

    O2 then cats then injectors would be my order of bizniz. Cats are a little bit of a PITA but thats just the nature of them.

    Diagnostics are great, its just at some point they have limitations... It very well may be that if you drive it long enough that either the O2 sensors will identify that the cat isn't working properly, or, will identify that the O2 sensor is bad. Oh - wait - you probably don't have dual O2's, right? YEah in that case the DME will have a hard time being able to ID a bad cat.
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    After reset adaptions the stft comes back on -3 again. I have 4 sensors, 2 lamda and 2 monitor sensors per bank. That is what you mean with dual sensors?
    I agrea with you it would be very unlikely that all gaskets are that bad at one bank. I still doubt if 1 very bad leaking injector on cilinder 8 can be an influance on the other cilinders on that bank. I have read that somewhere, but I am unsure.

    I have all the diagnostics a guy could want, so its very depressing that we end in just replacing parts, but I think there is no other way. I can do the gaskets and injectors myself,The cats and sensors must be done by the garage.
    So maybe I change the order and do the cats last. I guess after 300000 km the injectors and gaskets might be a little damaged.

    Is there maybe some other test for the cats beside hitting it? I mean some test we can do to the suspect and proof a little more the o2 or cats are the culprit?

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    I wouldn't 'fire the parts cannon' quite yet.

    Maybe you can drop the exhaust partially and try to stick an inspection cam in there from the front. You'll need jacks and stands to do that but shouldn't have to drop the exhaust completely, just get the front connector off and look inside. And then the real sticking point is, unfortunately on this car you'd need a super long inspection cam extension because the length from the bolt-up part to the cat is quite a distance.

    Here's what you'd look for... Some of the 'cells' fuse up drastically reducing the flow. Often when they are clogged they also crack up (which is what the 'bang test' is about) but before they get that bad they can also be just clogged (which is why bang test isn't perfect). There's lotta pix on the internet. You need to look in the front of the cat not the back (since they clog from the front side of course...)




    The other thing you can do is mounting a pressure tester in the front O2 sensor and then comparing the banks back-pressure. Not recommending this particular item, it just comes up in a google search, but so you can see what tool would be required... You'd put this in on one bank, start the car, measure pressure at say, 3 RPM points, then shut it down and move to the other side and repeat the exact process.
    https://www.amazon.com/Tool-Aid-3360.../dp/B0002SQW9S

    Short of those 2 things, the 'bang test' is about the only thing you can do.

    On the injector side, the common trick to do is to swap the injectors left/right banks and see if the problem follows the injectors. That's 'free' and easy so another diagnostic step you can try pretty easily before buying parts.

    I understand you can't do the cats yourself from sheer labor and welding required, but why can't you do the O2 sensors yourself?
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    Very clear response thx! The o2 sensors must be possible to do it myself, but I can imagine they are very stuck. I have no garage myself and do everything here myself in our rainy country. I love to work on the BMW's but it'smust be between the clouds. Summertime is the best, but that's like a few weeks here, and I don't want to wait months and months between the repairs.So most of the work from above the engine I do myself (not the chain guides) but the work under the car is in the winter very difficult. I did do that, but when you get older it's not that attractive anymore. But maybe the sensors are still possible to do myself when its dry.

    I have many tools, also an inspection camera but I think the length is about 60cm max. I can start with the bang test. I wonder if all this make sense.
    I want to give the exact symptom order again.

    - 3 years ago when I bought the car it is bogging when cold. When the gauge is in the middle it's fine and very strong ride in all areas.
    - Back then I did the smoothness test and saw the cylinders on bank 2 (cilinder 8 highest) not very smooth. I did have some misfire codes also.
    - I did drove it a lot and hard! and the misfire codes where gone for 2 years. I do monitor a lot so I know there where no codes.
    - After guide replacement the codes came back, but the vehicle did stand still for a few months, except for a few short starts.
    - I measured the smoothness again and afcours they are not fine and almost the same as a few years back

    So maybe I did a good thing to drive this beast hard and the cats became a little better. After the stand still it became worse? and when I started driving it again after the new guides it started throwing cells again.

    Just a theory off course.

    I hate the work I cant do myself. And I hate even more to let the job done by a garage that don't have any feeling for our BMW's and just change parts without knowing something. So when we are quite sure what needs to be replaced it s that that worse to give the trust over at the garage.

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    Do you have a friend with a garage you can use (or rent) for a few hours?
    You most likely don't have pre-CAT's on your car.
    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=18_0300

    Without a back pressure gauge you can loosen the nuts on all 4 of the exhaust pipe flanges (buy some spare nuts and bolts first), you can slide the exhaust back enough to have a small gap (or stick a wrench in to keep it apart) to let the exhaust escape. If back pressure is the problem this will reduce it pretty much to 0.
    Clear the code, start the engine, check for missing and smoothness.

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    Oke that is a doable test. But I always thought that when back pressure is the problem, it would be a problem only on higher rpm's? The smoothness is measured in idle conditions and the misfires are not only in higher rpm's. The diagnose software is giving low rpm's each time when it writes the cell, but I don't know exact if that is trustful.

    So is this technical still possible in this case?

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    higher rpm's just increase the amount of back pressure, if the cat isnt flowing freely, it should show at idle.

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    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmar1 View Post
    higher rpm's just increase the amount of back pressure, if the cat isnt flowing freely, it should show at idle.
    Oke, but when you look at the video in the first post it's quiet a bit. I would expect power loss in the higher rpm's when it is a flow problem.
    But instead the engine runs very good all till the red line. The only thing I notice is the little shake at idle, and the first 5 minutes in the warming up it's bogging quiet bad.
    I am willing to exchange all parts, but it remains technically very attractive to first properly diagnose.
    I love to do first right, but I know it doesn't always work that way.

    Ok I think this is all the info we can get, it is time to start with some action. I let it know if I find something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bfrqrv View Post
    Oke that is a doable test. But I always thought that when back pressure is the problem, it would be a problem only on higher rpm's? The smoothness is measured in idle conditions and the misfires are not only in higher rpm's. The diagnose software is giving low rpm's each time when it writes the cell, but I don't know exact if that is trustful.

    So is this technical still possible in this case?
    It all depends on how had the CAT's are clogged. Disconnect the pipes and see what happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by edjack View Post
    How would you expect that cyl 8 would have an effect cyl 5 and 7?

    You may have three leaky injectors. What is the short-term fuel trim for bank 2?
    Oke, I did a weird test to learn. Like I said, There are people that say 1 injector bad (or maybe 1 coil) will be an influence on multiple cylinders when it comes to the smoothness.

    I disconnected the injector (electrically) and run the smoothness test again. Here is the picture. You can see the big difference with the video where all cylinders are injected.
    I must say I am surprised, and this is some proof that 1 cylinder can make a difference for the whole bunch?

    7cyl.jpg

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    Has anyone an explanation for the difference between the video from the first post and this picture? I am somehow thrilled about it because it seems like an eye opener for our thoughts how the smoothness works, but specially how 1 cylinder affects the others.

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    No explanation.
    I'd loosen the bolts on the Cats like I said above, won't cost you anything except time.
    If the Cats are the problem it will be obvious.

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    Have you explored the option of bad coils on those cylinders 5, 7 and 8 ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    No explanation.
    I'd loosen the bolts on the Cats like I said above, won't cost you anything except time.
    If the Cats are the problem it will be obvious.
    Yes you are right. It's the damn climate and not having any shelter anywhere to test this in the winter. Besides that we can do many operations our self, but the mechanical work under the car is a pita. So I try to avoid that
    Plus now I saw that difference when we stopped cylinder 8, I now doubt that it is the cat. Normally the cat with this kind of smoothness must be very bad, but the car is running like crazy in higher rpm.

    But again, you are right that we must test this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Chedley View Post
    Have you explored the option of bad coils on those cylinders 5, 7 and 8 ??
    Yes. The coils are good.

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    So, today I changed the intake gaskets. The looked fine but I changed them. Also I used 10 new distancers and 10 new bolts on the manifold. I also changed the injector from cylinder 4 to cylinder 8 and putt a new injector in cylinder 4.
    This way I know if the injector 8 was the problem, and also know if the new injector is doing fine in this setup. All came out fine, but the issue is still there. I also changed the ccv while I was in there.
    I also did compression tests and all came out fine within specs.

    So we are back to where we started. The only thing I didn't work at is the cat and o2 sensors. o2 sensors is a small chance because they don't work in the first minutes? The roughness is worse when the engine and climate is cold, and better (not good, still bad) when the climate is warm and the engine is warm.

    Is it true when I say that the only thing left that can do this are the cats? Or are there more options to explore.
    Here is the last video after the repairs but all repairs didn't have any impact on the issue.

    http://www.blackshalo.com/8%20Cylind...%20repairs.mp4
    Last edited by bfrqrv; 03-31-2019 at 08:33 AM.

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    Today I tried to make some diagnoses again and found some things that might bring new light in this case.
    I discovered the cats are 10 years old and not original. They are from a third party called Eurocats. I think it's a dutch brand.
    Also I don't have post O2 sensors only Pre cat sensors. I think they deleted them mechanically and in the ECU when they mounted the new cats.
    Again, bank 1 is very good, so I think the set-up must be possible.

    Strange thing when I disconnect the O2 sensor on bank 2 INPA doesn't throw an error.
    Also when I leave that sensor disconnected BOTH readings in INPA regarding O2 sensor are dead. Bank 1 is connected but the reading will not start to fluctuate when bank 2 sensor is disconnected. I waited long enough to get the engine warm, but they only work when they are both connected. Maybe that's normal.

    While I leave sensor bank 2 disconnected the smoothness is better but still all 4 cylinders on that bank are around 500 instead of 1000+ so there is some influence. Bank 1 stay's very good, all below 64.
    Now I start to think it's an injector again, maybe from 5,6 or 7. I swapped 8 already a few days ago.
    The reason I think this is because of the STFT adaption readings in INPA. When I look live when the engine starts to use the sensor the readings are fluctuating from -8 to -20! That's way too much I guess and then it holds on around -11 the last days. So the mixture is very rich on that side and the engine tries to get it leaner and leaner. I think that can affect all cylinders on bank 2 for sure?

    The nasty thing is that this could point to the O2 sensor, but why the smoothness is still bad when it's cold and doesn't do any adjustments.

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