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Thread: S70 /1 question

  1. #1
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    S70 /1 question

    Is there any way to tune the 850csi s70 engine to make it close to McLaren spec? Without the crazy headers... And manifold... Just asking because how dope would it be to have a 500-600 hp v12 E31...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oday0111 View Post
    Is there any way to tune the 850csi s70 engine to make it close to McLaren spec? Without the crazy headers... And manifold... Just asking because how dope would it be to have a 500-600 hp v12 E31...

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    Dinan Turbos on M70s been done 20 plus years ago


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    Quote Originally Posted by rosakirk12 View Post
    Dinan Turbos on M70s been done 20 plus years ago


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    What about N/A

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oday0111 View Post
    What about N/A

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    What's the closest you can get to that McLaren engine just by tuning the m70. Talking n/a. Want to make that m70 into a s70 /1

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  5. #5
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    No. The engines arenít even close to being similar. The block is the same architecture thatís about it. The S70/2 engine has dual overhead cam heads, variable valve timing, higher compression, cam specs are much more aggressive, better intake and exhaust system. Itís got individual throttle bodies, dual injectors per cylinder. Thereís almost nothing thatís the same at all the 2 engines.

    Not to mention over a whole liter more displacement than a normal M70 and half a liter more than an S70.
    Last edited by killian665; 01-12-2019 at 11:23 PM.

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    I get how bmw operates when it comes to s engines a m engines. S62 vs m62, s52 vs m62 they all each I have itbs and Yada Yada bigger displacement but what if you could modify all the components to work such as taking the block work with all the McLaren parts

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    Korman 6ltr stage 3 is about 500hp. Their Super Stock is 405hp


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    I donít wanna be rude but if youíre asking that itís kinda clear you donít know enough about engines or how they work. The differences are too great. The engines donít share anything in common really. Itís basically a ground up redesign. You canít modify any iteration of an E31 V12 to be like the S70/2 in the McLaren. Powerplant Racing are the only place to ever come close with their top tier engine build based on a normal M70. On their site it costs over $90,000 and still doesnít get you S70/2 power and I donít even think they offer their services anymore honestly.

    Also the S62 out of all those engines you listed is the only one with ITBs.

  9. #9
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    How about a visual-

    You can't tune-

    THIS-







    From this-


  10. #10
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    Good story of how the S70/2 came to be produced, can be found here:
    https://jalopnik.com/the-confusing-h...bui-1828173674
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by killian665 View Post
    I donít wanna be rude but if youíre asking that itís kinda clear you donít know enough about engines or how they work. The differences are too great. The engines donít share anything in common really. Itís basically a ground up redesign. You canít modify any iteration of an E31 V12 to be like the S70/2 in the McLaren. Powerplant Racing are the only place to ever come close with their top tier engine build based on a normal M70. On their site it costs over $90,000 and still doesnít get you S70/2 power and I donít even think they offer their services anymore honestly.

    Also the S62 out of all those engines you listed is the only one with ITBs.
    See I understand that your not trying to be rude but just saying that I don't know enough about engines or how they work I find kinda ignorant. I'm just trying to understand this s70/2 engine. Are you aware of the s70 engine in the m8 prototype. And I did not say that all the engine I listed (M62, N52, S62, S52) do have throttle bodies. Maybe I wasn't clear enough but I ment that all M cars from the original m5 has gotten itbs. So both S62 and S52(euro) got itb the stock non m cars didn't.


    So back to what I was trying to get at.

    The m8 prototype came with a s70/1 engine based off the m70 but was super modified... Came with itbs, bigger displacement but it still had the features of the m70.

    The s70 /1 then was progressed and made more advanced making it into the McLaren s70/2

    So since the engine all have similar architecture... If you had unlimited funds could you take a m70 engine tune and modify it so much to make it s70/2 spec N/A I'm not saying make it 1 to 1 scale just make it powerful as the s70/2 since it has all similar architecture..... Sorry if it sounds like I'm being stupid or Lame but I'm just thinking far out if it would or could even be remotely close to be even possible sorry if I upset anyone. Not my intention just trying to gain knowledge.....

    Pictures are of the s70 in the m8 with the carbon fiber itbs. The m70 v12 from the E31 and a s70/2 from a McLaren

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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwiCSi View Post
    Good story of how the S70/2 came to be produced, can be found here:
    https://jalopnik.com/the-confusing-h...bui-1828173674
    Before I even wrote this thread I read that article.... That's why I wrote this thread...

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    Has anyone ever considered using the BMW 6.0l DOHC N73 NA or N74 V12 FI engine in a E31? The N73 makes apprx 450hp and was developed after the M73. The N73 was built from 2003 to 2016 and used in the 7 series and RR Phantom. N74 with turbos is probably too big to fit.

    Here is a discussion about the N73: https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...512284-e31-N73
    Last edited by JDP530; 01-13-2019 at 05:46 PM.

  14. #14
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    The engines arenít similar. Theyíre similar in that theyíre both V12s thatís it. So short answer, no you canít tune an M70 or S70 to be anything like an S70/2.

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    The N73 and N74 are a couple inches longer (oil pan below) and 3-4" taller PLUS a lot tougher to control (electronics wise)

    upper pan gasket4.jpg


    As others have said- both engines have 12 cylinders- and share no parts.

    Here's my M73 with custom ITBs and a drysump-I'm not gonna see 550hp....

    DSCN7745.jpg

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard454 View Post
    The N73 and N74 are a couple inches longer (oil pan below) and 3-4" taller PLUS a lot tougher to control (electronics wise)

    upper pan gasket4.jpg


    As others have said- both engines have 12 cylinders- and share no parts.

    Here's my M73 with custom ITBs and a drysump-I'm not gonna see 550hp....

    DSCN7745.jpg
    Thank you. That's a definite answer for me right there. Nice build you got too. So I guess they arnt as same as I thought it was gonna be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oday0111 View Post
    ...just trying to gain knowledge...
    Engine porn doesn't do it.

    We, the keepers of knowledge, might refer this line of questioning back back to the math
    that relates power, rpm, volumetric efficiency, air density, fuel energy, etc.
    Perhaps put the formulas into a spreadsheet and play around at bit.
    Then we the keepers might give some advise on what are the practical limits to plug in for our real-world modified V12.

    For instance, if our hypothetical engine gets 700bhp from rpm, what about that?
    See "Yanking the Crank at 18,000 rpm", Csaba Csere, Car & Driver, Oct 1999.

    Perhaps we then compare the formula parameters of actual engines.
    And perhaps we refer back to V12 head research done long ago by Mr Mwrench.

  18. #18
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    Tune

    Tune to get McLaren HP No

    Modify to get McLaren HP Yes,

    Take M70 Engine and remove everything but the block. Design and install new DOHC Heads, Intake, Headers, crank, rods, pistons, ignition, fuel injection system etc etc

    Just Like McLaren did.

    Speed is a matter of Money.

    How fast do you want to go?

    Yanking the Crank at 18,000 rpm reminded me that the design constraint is how big you can make the bore versus how short the stroke versus deck height and connecting rod length and RPM limits

    Maximize Displacement and then juggle it with RPM limited to maximize HP
    Last edited by rjjablo; 01-14-2019 at 12:57 PM.

  19. #19
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    Thanks for all the comments! The whole reason I started this thread is because I wanted to see if one could recreate the m8... But to its maximum glory. What was but never was.

    I thought to myself after looking up alot about the McLaren and the m8. "what could we do to have that s70 engine in a E31"

    Well since bmw only made a prototype,
    its impossible to see that on the street. even if you made one.. Still wouldnt be a true m8.

    why?

    It wasn't designed by bmw.


    But what if we could still make one?

    So... I got on and started this thread. Just to see if we could even get close to having a E31 with "m8 engine" via tuning or upgrading the 850csi engine.

    But I asked if it could be done n/a because the m8 itself is n/a and like all the bmws of the golden era they are all pretty much n/a (besides desiel and 2002 turbo)

    But now since you all shared you knowledge I can now put it to rest and just have to live on without hope of ever driving anything close to the E31 M8. Well maybe close in terms of power..

    but in terms of accuracy to the original m8... Not happening...


    Maybe one day In the future the bimmer community could donate money to buy a McLaren engine and all the accessories to make it work $$$$$$

    And slap it into a E31 with some beastly upgrades...

    Now that would be legendary on many levels


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  20. #20
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    I was cringing while reading this fantasy thread... forum old timers will relate....

    Who needs McLaren engine if M70 can easily push 600hp, and yes I am pushing 600 at the crank. Any more than that and E31 becomes difficult to control at WOT.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by dragon850 View Post
    I was cringing while reading this fantasy thread... forum old timers will relate....

    Who needs McLaren engine if M70 can easily push 600hp, and yes I am pushing 600 at the crank. Any more than that and E31 becomes difficult to control at WOT.
    I mean there's is alot of things in this world that arnt needed.
    Who needs to 6 speed swap a 540 when you can buy one with one or just get m5

    Who needs a lambo when they already have 6

    Who needs bumper stickers on their car? Doesn't do shit besides add weight. Makes the car your own unique car but still not needed.

    Why did bmw need to make the s70 engine?
    So the McLaren could be a reality

    People throw crazy engines into their e36s with some turbo or supercharger.
    Then make 800whp....
    Can the car Handel it.. Not with stock components... But people still do. It all the time.

    My little fantasy thread might be cringy but still shouldn't be answered with doubt and aggression.

    It should be answered with open thoughts and ideas... how can you create something without even trying.... Or making a effort.

    You all have made some good comments but I feel like I'm not really taken seriously...
    But whatever
    Thanks for wasting your time posting on my "cringy fantasy thread"


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  22. #22
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    Perhaps you might want to consider how many times we have already dealt with this fantasy?
    How many times have we had to explain reality to those that decide "it is simple to make 4v heads for the M70"?
    After a while, it does get old.
    So no, you are not going to be "taken seriously".
    Sorry, Reality bites.
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  23. #23
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    Oday011, my 2 cents...
    the guys have given all the facts and true to every point that the S70/2 was a fantasy engine. In owning a CSI (s70/1)I learned everything about that engine and what is isn't of a S70/2!! Realistically as some of the guys have done, my research and a few members have taken a stock M70, supercharged it(and there are some very good kits out there) and for reasonably cheap money, you get awesome V12, BMW high revs and anywhere between 550-750HP- depending on fuel mods and porting and intake changes(throttle bodies etc)
    However, after selling my CSI and I love the V12, i bought s 840 with M60. Im currently in midst of installing a S62 , 400Hp M5 engine into it with big case diff and 540 6 six speed. Modifying the S62 can make 500 plus Hp and keeping it pretty stock. The only other way to get S70/2 type power is the dreaded S85 V10..... which is probably the best, almost Formula 1 type engine. If rebuilt bottom end bearings with newer mods, that engine can get 600-700Hp easy and incredible torque....cuz us V12 guys LOVE torque!! . HOWEVER, when a High pressure oil pump goes its $10K and no one rebuilds them except for the big money guys. But that engine, by design is the most awesome engine BMW built for production cars. Just have oil pump spares and $$!! But man what an engine.....(I mean unless your Jay Leno and have an S70/2!!!! LOL
    Good luck hope you find your dream!!

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