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Thread: Help me fine tune my suspension setup. SLR kit E36

  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Help me fine tune my suspension setup. SLR kit E36

    Car:
    94 325is
    ls1 t56 swap (350ish HP)
    advanced design coilovers 650lb front 750lb rear GC plates
    M3 front sway, NO rear sway (best mod I did so far!)
    E46 arms ,Centered bushings, 95 M3 knuckles
    SLR kit

    Current settings:
    Front:
    650lb springs
    2 degree toe out (total not per side)
    -4.7 degree camber
    Max caster on GC plates (~7 degrees)
    17x8 wheels +20 offset with 20mm spacers
    245/40 RS-3

    Rear:
    750 lb springs
    .2 Degree Toe
    -1.7 degree camber
    17x8 +20 offset
    245/45 federal 595

    I plan to take out some rear camber (go for -0.5 to -0.75 degrees) for better life and traction (now that I can use traction with the new motor!)

    Problem:
    When I get to about 70% of my available steering, the wheel wants to pull in tighter (ie I have to return the steering manually). It also seems to scrub a ton of speed. I thought the SLR kit was designed to eliminate this. It also has a lot of resistance when doing parking lot manuevers. I feel like my Toe is not right.

    Questions:
    1. How does changing my rear camber affect the toe? If I remove camber where will the toe go? How much can I remove before I have to redo the Toe from where its at?

    2. Whats the deal on the front? should I try offset bushings? remove caster? Im stumped. I tried 0 toe and it had less return (self steer), Toe in felt worse! More Toe out makes turn in from neutral really "snappy" feeling.

    Plans:
    before next event--raise the front some more
    over the next winter-- soften both front and rear rates

    Before I get flamed, I did research this. Hence where my suspension is now! I have only had two track days with the new motor and SLR kit, but my suspension is not responding to the changes the way I thought they should. I have one more practice day before my next Comp, so please help me figure out where to go from here.

  2. #2
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    You're having resistance in parking lots from the front end because you're way beyond the steering angle you get from stock stuff. Unless you had zero ackerman, you'd get that feeling no matter what, simply because the wheels are at drastically different angles. This doesn't have as strong an effect at speed in a drift because only one tire will be taking most of the weight of the car. The trailing tire just sort of drags. Again, same effect as in the parking lot, only it's amplified at low speeds because the front wheels are getting an equal share of the cars weight.

    Pretty sure in the rear an increase in overall camber leads to toe out.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    96 M3
    I run the least possible front camber which still seems to be a lot. Slight toe out since I rarely drive it on the street.

    I run zero rear camber and my tires cord perfectly flat across. If your making 300+ hp you can start to run positive rear camber. As the car grips and squats, it levels out to 0 rear camber.

    Im not good enough or anywhere close to really F with the damper settings. I just leave them in the middle. The car feels smooth as butter.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyfizzle View Post
    You're having resistance in parking lots from the front end because you're way beyond the steering angle you get from stock stuff. Unless you had zero ackerman, you'd get that feeling no matter what, simply because the wheels are at drastically different angles. This doesn't have as strong an effect at speed in a drift because only one tire will be taking most of the weight of the car. The trailing tire just sort of drags. Again, same effect as in the parking lot, only it's amplified at low speeds because the front wheels are getting an equal share of the cars weight.

    Pretty sure in the rear an increase in overall camber leads to toe out.
    I thought the SLR kit was supposed to reduce or eliminate ackerman.

    I also have 5mm rack spacers if that matters.

    My dampers are set where I had them for road racing. Not sure if that's good or bad but it feels good and not bouncy.

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    S13, Turbo M3
    Chiming in, but with little to add as I'm still chasing steering issues and tire wear issues myself.

    My BEST tire wear ever, flat across was

    -.25* rear camber
    .3* rear toe-in
    890 lb rear springs


    Now I'm lower, and have softer springs (450/560 from 670/890) and I can't get as much toe in. Only like 0 or 1/64" in, and the tires wear like shit, and cord the insides (with 0 degree camber). I assumed the rear was squatting too much now from the massive grip/power/load transfer and I still needed more positive camber, so I sent to +0.5* rear camber, still 1/64" toe in, and it still wears like shit (although the last test day, the lot was horrible so it was really difficult to learn anything).

    So far my only conclusions are that toe-in helps more even rear wear. Chelsea runs 1/2" toe in (a LOT!) and wears the tire perfectly evenly. My problem is being low, eventually you have less toe adjustment in the RTAB plates. I've already slotted my plates a little and it's still not enough. I think I'll need to modify the bearing spacers on each side in the bracket or something to move it more inwards.

    And I have no idea what's going on up front. -4.8* camber, 7.5* caster, 0 toe, '95 M3 rack, V4 plates, still feel like I'm always fighting the car and the steering is working against me, not with me. I'm going to put in a linear non-M rack this week and maybe try some toe-out and see what happens.

    I would LOVE for someone to figure out the happy spot though re: ackerman, caster, and front toe for having the car drive itself more.

    Mike
    Last edited by MikeE36; 06-02-2013 at 05:16 PM.
    IG: @mikevanshellenbeck

  6. #6
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    Im so glad Im not the only one with issues!!!! My car self returned really well before the slr kit but I had no angle. Same caster settings as now but 3.25* camber vs 4.7* now.

    When I did the e46 arms and 5mm spacers it felt a little worse than before but better than now ( 4.7* camber, same caster, 1/8" toe out).

    I may remove some caster and see what happens I guess???? Does changing caster affect other measurements?

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Lol if anyone gets the self steer issue figured out im sure we are all ears. I drove my buddies s13 n was like damn this thing drives itself. I have a lot of caster and as little camber as I could dial out with bc plates. Please post caster settings for issue fix!!!! Haha

  8. #8
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    my self steer feels awesome. let go of the wheel catch catch catch catch. love it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdipompo View Post
    my self steer feels awesome. let go of the wheel catch catch catch catch. love it.
    Alignment specs?

  10. #10
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    eyeballed, the rear is zero camber with slight toe in and the front is OMG camber with a little toe out. It works so i stick with it. but if i take a 15 minute highway drive to taco bell, my front tires get supper hot.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdipompo View Post
    eyeballed, the rear is zero camber with slight toe in and the front is OMG camber with a little toe out. It works so i stick with it. but if i take a 15 minute highway drive to taco bell, my front tires get supper hot.
    I think your caster setting is the magic number we are looking for haha I do like your super technical alignment specs.

  12. #12
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    sDipompo,
    Are you running the SLR kit? If so what arms are you using?

  13. #13
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    More caster=better self-steer

    dump your camber plates as far back as they'll go

    I only got to drift my car for about 10 minutes on a recent test drive, but it felt fine, very similar feel as prior to the SLR kit (e46 arms and akg adapter bushings) but with a more crisp turn-in feel, and faster steering. I feel like I can get my pre-slr steering angle with maybe 50-60% of the steering input. Seems to be about 2.5 turns lock-to-lock compared to like 3.5 IIRC.

    setup:

    slr kit with e46 arms
    akg adapter cabs
    bc coils/plates set to full positive caster (all the way towards the firewall)
    eyeballed roughly parallel toe up front, maybe a bit of toe out...very small amount if any
    1/8" overall rear toe-in
    -1* rear camber

    rear tires with those alignment specs have always wore really well...car seems fast for the power it has with that setup, can't comment on fronts yet

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdipompo View Post
    eyeballed, the rear is zero camber with slight toe in and the front is OMG camber with a little toe out. It works so i stick with it. but if i take a 15 minute highway drive to taco bell, my front tires get supper hot.

    ^hahaha, OMG camber.


  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by bennyfizzle View Post
    More caster=better self-steer

    dump your camber plates as far back as they'll go

    I only got to drift my car for about 10 minutes on a recent test drive, but it felt fine, very similar feel as prior to the SLR kit (e46 arms and akg adapter bushings) but with a more crisp turn-in feel, and faster steering. I feel like I can get my pre-slr steering angle with maybe 50-60% of the steering input. Seems to be about 2.5 turns lock-to-lock compared to like 3.5 IIRC.

    setup:

    slr kit with e46 arms
    akg adapter cabs
    bc coils/plates set to full positive caster (all the way towards the firewall)
    eyeballed roughly parallel toe up front, maybe a bit of toe out...very small amount if any
    1/8" overall rear toe-in
    -1* rear camber

    rear tires with those alignment specs have always wore really well...car seems fast for the power it has with that setup, can't comment on fronts yet
    Benny I have adjustable lollies and have them maxed caster because I thought same as you, more caster better self steer, I think there's such a thing as too much haha, I think I had better luck at lower caster numbers rather then maxed out.

  16. #16
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    Also remember that lolli caster and strut top caster aren't equal

    Status: Someone put glitter in my oil. Wait. Why's all my oil outside the engine? What's that knocking?

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeepster View Post
    sDipompo,
    Are you running the SLR kit? If so what arms are you using?
    Si, adjustable arms, 20mm out.

  18. #18
    Join Date
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    My Cars
    2JZ E30
    Front: -3.7* Camber, 0* Toe, 8* Caster
    Rear: -3* Camber, .14 Toe

    SLR V4
    E46 Arms
    Stock CABs
    BCs
    E36 Rack

    I was experiencing close to that same as you OP. I was running tie rod spacers, and my rack wasn't centered. The car did not self steer, in parking lots it was a nightmare, and in drift it felt like it just crab walked. My Solution: I took out the rack spacers, centered the rack, got an alignment, and now it feels 1000x better. The car self steers much more than it ever used to and feels more like my S14 did. Its still slow (although I did pick up some speed) around the corners, because I have no rear grip, but I dont spin out, I maintain angle and speed, and it feels amazing.
    - AXIS POWERS - 2JZ E30 Build -
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  19. #19
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    edit: nevermind I cant read
    Last edited by bennyfizzle; 06-03-2013 at 12:16 PM. Reason: herp derp

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLEEPYDUB View Post
    Front: -3.7* Camber, 0* Toe, 8* Caster
    Rear: -3* Camber, .14 Toe

    SLR V4
    E46 Arms
    Stock CABs
    BCs
    E36 Rack

    I was experiencing close to that same as you OP. I was running tie rod spacers, and my rack wasn't centered. The car did not self steer, in parking lots it was a nightmare, and in drift it felt like it just crab walked. My Solution: I took out the rack spacers, centered the rack, got an alignment, and now it feels 1000x better. The car self steers much more than it ever used to and feels more like my S14 did. Its still slow (although I did pick up some speed) around the corners, because I have no rear grip, but I dont spin out, I maintain angle and speed, and it feels amazing.
    THAnK YOU! This is where I will start then. I was curious if my rack spacers were causing any of this. Do I have to find new factory "stop" washers for my rack? I don't have a clue where mine are!
    I did center my rack when I got it aligned last time (my wheel is now not centered, but I figured that was the case)

  21. #21
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    I dont have anything limiting mine and it seems to work well. Just take them out and realign it and see how it helps. I noticed that my rack was overcentering, which seems to be one of the symptoms you're describing.
    - AXIS POWERS - 2JZ E30 Build -
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  22. #22
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    Well my specs are about the same front -3.8* camber 0 front toe and caster i cant get more than 3.8*?(how are y'all adjusting it?) rear .25* toe in -.5* camber wears pretty even.

    E36(engine less atm) Ls2/t56
    SLR Kit Adjustable Arms Like 3 turns out
    5mm Rack Spacers
    Bc Coilover 8k 10k
    Stock Style Delrin CABs
    Last edited by 4CFEDFD; 06-04-2013 at 07:55 PM.
    1993 318i L33/T56 Swapped Drift Thingy L33 Blew Up Time For LS2

  23. #23
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    Here is an article with basic info. Most of the people that posted above already know this, but I thought I would share it in case a Noob is reading this to set up the car.

    Im going back to the alignment shop today. I removed my rack spacers. Im also going to run a little less toe out in front. (Im at 2* now which is about 9/16>>> Im gonna go for about 1* I think) Ill post actual measurements later today.

    Im going to test the car this Saturday as well. Im taking a temp gun and tread depth gauge to look at front/rear tire temps and wear. I think that I may also adjust the SLR pickup point to restore normal ackerman (to help with self steer) and see what kind of affects it has on scrub at full lock.

  24. #24
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    Looking forward to specs and results! Good luck

  25. #25
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    Okay, here are my current specs: (note that I cannot achieve what I wanted because I do not have all the new bushings and race parts installed yet...not enough time!) I also removed my rack spacers and have no factory stop washers installed.

    Left Right
    Front
    Camber -4.9 -4.2
    Caster 4.7 4.9 (not sure why this number is so low I have GC plates maxed out)
    Toe -1.03 -.98 (Total is 2* out per SLR recommendations)

    Rear
    Camber -2.2 -1.6 (Least I can get since my adjustable arms are not installed yet)
    Toe .01 -.01


    After about three hours of reading on this today.........

    Hypothesis:
    Ackerman produces self steer and is only marginally affected by camber & caster. Static Toe in and out affects the ackerman affect at full lock.

    Explanation:
    Toe out feels better with SLR kit because the Ackerman is removed (or reduced). We are effectively re-introducing ackerman by running massive toe out with the SLR kit. Running stock ackerman with 0* toe will induce "scrub" at full lock, but will also yield much better feel and self steer during return.

    I will be testing this weekend to see what way feels the best!
    E46 arms, 95 M3 knuckles, 5mm spacers, 0* toe = shitty angle/great self steer>>>>lots of spins!
    above + SLR kit 0* Toe = no self steer at all and actually pulls the wheels further during drift (feels like shit and lots of work in the car)
    Above 2* toe out = okay self steer at less than 70% available steering (beyond that is manual return only)
    Above less 5mm spacers 2* toe out = TBD
    Above with stock ackerman 0* toe = TBD

    I know long post but I want to figure this out. All future testing will be done with same tires, same track, same pressures, etc!
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by jeepster; 06-05-2013 at 05:13 PM.

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