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Thread: Misfire cylinder 3..Already done a lot...but still no luck...

  1. #1
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    Misfire cylinder 3..Already done a lot...but still no luck...

    I start this post just to see if anybody has an idea what a sound could be that my engine is making. Video with sound will be at the end of this post.
    Let's start with my problem.

    Last Thursday I was driving home from work when I notice that my 2000 528i touring was shaking.
    First idea was my undercarriage. I know that they are worn, and I had plans to do this job today.
    Unfortunately this shaking was not coming from the undercarriage but fro the engine.

    After I got home I started my laptop and opened INOPA and saw Misfire Cylinder 3.
    Next day I started with troubleshooting this issue.

    First things was swapping coils..Still misfire Cylinder 3. New Sparkplug..still misfire cylinder 3.
    Had a spare Mass Air flow sensor so I try this one , but still misfire.
    Next was checking the boot coming from the throttle body and vacuum lines...all seems OK.

    Today I continued and did some test with fuel injectors. Took them all out...put nr 3 aside and installed a other one. Started the car...still shaking like crazy.

    Did a short testdrive to see if I got same misfire error, but INPA did not see anything. Check engine light came on, but no error. Think i need to do a longer run, because the engine reacts the same..very bad..Shaking..lost of power.

    After I did al of this I notice a very strange noise coming from the passenger side of the engine. I can not point exactly where its coming from, but its between cylinder 3 and front of the engine.
    Sounds like air is blowing out.

    Did some checking with a mirror to see under the manifold but could not see anything. I also get under the car to check, but I could not find any thing.

    I checked a lot of video about vacuum leaks and some of them talk about a secondary air pump that must be on that side, but on my car , there is not such thing. Also no lines.

    OK..here is the video...You can hear the sound..Dont mind wind noise..that is my cooling fan



    I am planning to have a pressure test on monday. Unfortunately i dont have the equipment to do this.

    Wonder if anybody can point me in the right direction about this issue

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    Could be a number of things. A leakdown test is probably your best bet. you've already done a lot of good testing for this issue. But if you want one more, pull the DISA out and make sure it is one piece.

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    Quote Originally Posted by effduration View Post
    Could be a number of things. A leakdown test is probably your best bet. you've already done a lot of good testing for this issue. But if you want one more, pull the DISA out and make sure it is one piece.
    I forgat to mention that I did my CCV valve 3 weeks ago. And at that moment I removed my DISA valve and i looks OK.Tension was good..seal where still perfect.
    Also done Valvecover gasket and oilfilter gasket

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    head rebuild m50.jpgMy misfire in No3 turned out to be a crack between the two cylinders top end rebuildm59 rebuild.jpg M50 not m59 misplaced my glasses
    Last edited by Jonylevers; 12-16-2018 at 12:15 AM.

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    Did your also had that strange noise? Or where your symptoms just misfire on 3?


    Have to wait until tomorrow. Hope they can do a pressure test for me. And,f head is cracked, then I think I will look for something else.
    Bought this car very cheap, and did a lot to it. But a head rebuild is just to much

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    Car would shudder when accelerating cough n fart though for 500 dollars it was going to be a project,was only when i pulled it apart i saw a hairline crack in the cylinder between No2 and No3 pots,have a look through the forum posts for compression testing,rebuilding the head was not as difficult as people think do a lot of reading and have the right tools makes it real easy i ended up buying another cylinder head sent it off to decked n squared,valves and guides and valve compensators were removed some replaced reseated with new valve guide seals all up 800 AUD for the rebuild,you being in Europe probably cheaper 20140828_162456[1].jpg 20140830_191840[1].jpghead rebuild m50.jpg
    Last edited by Jonylevers; 12-24-2018 at 09:22 AM. Reason: adding more pictures

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    Well that is my problem. Car drove until know perfect. Except having that issue with CCV that also gave me some running issues. But all were solved after changing that system.
    Only issue I had was shaking between 100 and 110 km/h, but that is my undercarriage, which was planned to tackle last Saturday. Unfortunately this problem started.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by seninnha View Post
    Check engine light came on, but no error.
    Are you sure? That's almost impossible (to have an "SES" light with no error code). At the very least its extremely rare. Sometimes the SES will come on then go off during knock detection and misfires but even then usually some kind of error is logged.

    About 80% of the time "here's my video of car engine bay sound" recordings are useless because all the other sounds are all amped up and mixed in and sound proportions and what should be "normal" is extremely hard to figure out. No offense, worth a try, but this is one of those times. Maybe I hear something that sounds like an exhaust leak. But I wouldn't bet bux on it.

    Maybe your exhaust manifold has a leak? It'd be a long shot to cause a misfire, but, if it caused some weird fuel trims... errrmmm... maybe. What are your fuel trims? That 'diamond' shaped cover that you can see for a minute in the video around 1:40 is the SAI block off plate, where a USA car would have a valve bolted. That's not leaking, is it?

    Using the old "what has changed recently" avenue of diagnosis... you just did the CCV. I'd maybe go triple check that work and see if something has popped off or gone wrong?
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  9. #9
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    In your video I really didn't see the engine shaking.
    All I heard sounded like noisy idler pulleys.
    Get the engine warmed up (so it will idle at a lower RPM) then remove all of the belts.
    Start it up and see if it sounds the same. With the pulleys not turning it should be easier to pinpoint your noise.
    Don't let it run too long, otherwise it will overheat.

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    @geargrinder:

    Error did eventually come on and is showed as P0303. This took some time. No idea why.

    qizwx9ygck.jpg

    Also error for the Purge Control valve is visible. I have this error sins I changed the CCV valve.
    Car did run very well with this code for over a month now

    But to be sure this did not give the problem I place an other valve from a donor car, but error still there. Even after clearing all codes.
    Maybe also not a good valve


    About noise that I hear...your can hear it clearly right after I place my phone under de manifold.Starting from 0.07 sec Sounds very much as air is escaping. It has same rhythm as piston going up and down.

    My first though was exhaust manifold leaking, but I know that a leak manifold does not give you a misfire. You could have some issues, but not a misfire.

    Plate that you see at 1.40 is not leaking. Sound comes from under the first manifold (bank 1 to 3 )

    What you say about CCV. that was my idea to. This is something I will tackle this week. Just want to check everything to be sure.

    @Jimlev

    Believe me,car IS shaking as hell. Runs very bad.
    About pulleys, that is a good idea. I will do that. Also want to stop the fan,because it causes to much noise. I need to check where I can find a connector to do this.

    Now some updates about what i have been doing after I started this post.

    After changing the injectors. I got the question if the injector was getting power. So I removed the injector rail to do a test. Unfortunately , I could not raise the rail enough, so i was not able to put a cup under injector 5 and 6.
    So I remove the power plug, and turn them 180dgr ...that way I could plug rest of the injector to power.

    Here you can see how I tested:

    cai6uxlhx2ra.jpg

    And again I made a video. Here you can see that all four injector do get fuel.



    Now I know that injector is getting power and fuel. But...I still do not know if fuel pressure is good. That is why I order a fuel pressure kit. Hope to get it this week. Together with a compression kit.

    After I done this, i took the DICA valve out. O-ring looks good. Valve spring is also solid. Attached a 9V battery to the valve and it moves. When installing the valve back, I can feel resistance, that means that o-ring is sealing well.

    Also remove all my spark plugs. This because when I removed plug 3 i saw some strange white stuff on it. After checking the rest of them , I find out that more had the same issue.
    See here how they look:

    xhapu4vp.jpg

    And here a close up of one of them:

    w55r0n.jpg

    Spark plugs were installed last june.

    Will change the last 5 also. Just to be sure.

    Now I have to wait for both pressure kits. So i can continue troubleshooting.
    Also want to spray some break cleaner , just to be sure that I really do not have a vacuum leak

    If anybody has other ideas, please advise..Everything is welcome
    Last edited by seninnha; 12-18-2018 at 06:32 PM.

  11. #11
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    That last plug look horrible. The others aren't much better.
    Might be worth putting it all back together with some new plugs to see how it runs.

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    Good info dump, @seninnha.

    Agree with Jim for sure. Those plugs are odd actually. Seems like half look rich, and half lean or contaminated ? I’m betting 3 dark ones came from one side and 3 light / maybe contaminated from the other? If it’s a bank thIng that could be helpful in diagnosis.

    O2 sensors and therefore mixture are the primary things that are ‘banked’. But if one cylinder in a bank has a major problem, sometimes it will cause that whole bank to have problems because it has screwed up the O2 sensor reading. And if a bank starts to get marginal on mixture, it’s common for one specific cylinder to drop out (misfire) first. So maybe that one cylinder is the low spot that is failing first on bank1 but really the whole bank has a problem?

    Agreed normally an exhaust leak isn’t a first look for misfire. The long shot is that some disruption happens to the O2 sensor flow due to a leak. Sure that’s normally a long shot, but if indeed if there’s a bank related problem then it’s possible one sensor is gettIng a weird signal.
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    I almost finish my night shift (it 6.30 AM herein Holland). after I got some sleep, I will get me new spark plugs. Will install them.
    And after that, I will see what my Fuel Trim is doing.

    I was playing with ScanMaster yesterday, and did do a live run looking at the fuel trim but I can't remember what they were.

    Will post it as soon as I have them.

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    Sounds like good plan. Are you in Holland proper? I worked a consulting project for a summer in Limburg years ago. I love the low countries. Have done a ton of work in Belgium too.
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  15. #15
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    Is correct, I live in Holland. Place next to the beach ,20 km from Amsterdam. Limburg is also great place.

    About live data, i connected my laptop and started Scanmaster, but had some issue getting connected to the engine. After trying different cables I was able to do this.

    And this is some of the data I saw:

    fz67moq.jpg
    anoil3w7p.jpg
    6rcjfj.jpg



    No idea if the readings are correct, like I said, had a lot of issues getting the scanmaster to connect to my engine ECU.

    Is there a way to do this kind o live scan on INPA? Or maybe other part of INPA software?
    I could not find it

    What I also did, just to be sure that is not causing this issue, i did a second vacuum test.
    Using some break cleaner. Went over different parts,like intake boot (from Mass sensor to throttle body) , distributor on top of Intake manifold , injectors, all hoses I could find that are vacuum related.
    None of those did change how the engine runs.I keeps running as bad.


    Now I am waiting for my test equipment for fuel pressure and compression. Will be here late so I think i will tackle this tomorrow.
    Last edited by seninnha; 12-20-2018 at 06:26 PM.

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    Nice. It’s great over there. My wife and I rented bikes in Haarlem and rode to the beach once it was great. There’s a famous race track over there right?

    INPA very definitely does live data. The menu / key names are sometimes odd but “Status” is usually the button. And look for extra pages (PageDown key) sometimes there’s a lot more there than 1 page.
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    Correct, race track is Zandvoort. Is not far away from my place. About 30 minutes by Bike.

    About INPA..I found some Live data, but was not sure which one was for the fuel trim.
    This is some screenshots i made 2 days ago

    Analog Values:

    084uohfec.jpg
    6fmw62gb60ixo.jpg
    mq7pcnmwxexk.jpg

    Lambda O2

    ayg2dwdw1ufs.jpg
    xy4q53.jpg





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    Also made some shots from:

    Petrol

    mfftse67je.jpg

    Rough (see cylinder 3)

    q6a0c5k.jpg

    and Vanos

    4jxp31h4o.jpg
    z55x3s1tblnut.jpg

    I am now trying to find info about what all of this readings. i want to understand what they mean.

    Todays I was talking to a guy who also owns a E39, and he gave me the tip to look at my ECU. Could be that it's doing something strange.

    Only wonder If engine ECU can be exchange without any problem. or do i need to code this into the car?

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    the "patrol adaptation" page is your fuel mixture readings, read with the engine warm and running.
    the "rough" page shows the evenness of combustion. your cylinder 3 shows pretty much like its just along for the ride.
    to change out the DME (ECU) yes it needs to be coded, paired with the EWS and a few other things. id look for spark at the plug for cylinder #3 and see that it is firing. yes the DME output mosfet can fail, but thats kinda rare.
    Last edited by mattmar1; 12-20-2018 at 07:29 PM. Reason: too many thumbs

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    INPA Patrol screenshot what you see is done while engine was running.
    The one done with Scanmaster also.

    I will look for sure if plug 3 is giving me spark. have to figure out how to do this. Back in the days , I used to just keep the spark plug to a metal surface. No idea if can do the same now.
    Will check it out.

    About ECU. I read an article about a dealer not able to find why a E60 was having a misfire on 3. They did almost anything to find a solution. They even removed the head.
    Finally they send the car to a ECU specialist and they found out , using a scope that ECU was giving low power to the injector 3.
    They changed the ECU and problem was gone.

    No idea if that is also my problem, but it's something to consider

    At this point , anything is possible for me.
    Last edited by seninnha; 12-21-2018 at 07:35 AM.

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    Well, finally today my compression and fuel pressure kit arrives.

    First I tackled was fuel pressure. Connected the gauge and run the engine. That gave me a 52PSI / 3.6 Bar . Seems OK.

    Next thing was compression...Well...looks like I found the CAUSE, but not the solution (jet)
    Due to the fact I had an appointment later on I needed to do this quick.
    Started therefore with cylinder 3.Engine was already warm. Disconnected all coils, and started for alt least 10 times, and readings were.....0 ..Zero..Nada

    Then I did a test on both cylinders next to 3, and both cylinder 2 and 4 gave me the same result. 184 PSI...no bad.

    Due to lack of time I did not test the rest.

    Well, before I figure out what next step will be. Take head of or not...I wanted to see if this issue could be that piston rings are stuck.
    I know that this car was not well cared by previous owner.I saw a lot of bad oil rest on the head cover. Signs that they did not change oil frequently.

    That is why I went to an auto part store here in my neighborhood to see if I could find some solution to pore into the spark plug hole, and leave it there over the weekend(saw already a lot of videos about this, unfortunately stuff they use is not available here).

    Guy at the store look at me very strange when I told him what I wanted to do.. Finally I found a solution to use to clean internals of the engine.
    Petromark_total_engine_conditioner-t-800x533.png

    No idea if this is the right stuff, but had nothing else for the moment.
    Tomorrow I am leaving for the weekend, so I will see after I am back what the results are. But will also check If I can find other solution.

    Guy at the store told me that diesel could do the job..No idea...need to do some research.

    Well, thats all for now. Can do no more at this point. Will be back for sure with an update
    Last edited by seninnha; 12-21-2018 at 11:26 AM.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattmar1 View Post
    the "patrol adaptation" page is your fuel mixture readings, read with the engine warm and running.
    the "rough" page shows the evenness of combustion. your cylinder 3 shows pretty much like its just along for the ride.
    to change out the DME (ECU) yes it needs to be coded, paired with the EWS and a few other things. id look for spark at the plug for cylinder #3 and see that it is firing. yes the DME output mosfet can fail, but thats kinda rare.
    Couldn't agree more w/ DME failure rarity. It happens, but far less than the amount of times shops or dudes replace an ECU in a "plug and pray" and then find out the ECU was fine.

    On the "patrol adaption" - yes sorta... that is the 'trims' page basically. The integrator/additive/multiplicative are the trims for the banks. The fact they are zero is probably due to you having just cleared codes or reset adaptations before taking screenshots.

    The lambda page is the one with the actual live raw readings from the O2 sensors. The pre-cats either just got screenshot-captured on a 'down' wave, and should have been flickering more above/below .5v, or, something is crazy lean. I know you said above you think there's no way an exhaust leak could affect a misfire, but that's a hypothetical where if exhaust was getting fresh air drawn in, it could cause funky O2 readings and screw up the mixture. Not saying thats likely (more likely that there's another problem) just saying thats how a pre-sensor exhaust leak might case a freak-problem.

    The post-cats are reading perfect more or less (.4v)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by seninnha View Post
    Started therefore with cylinder 3.Engine was already warm. Disconnected all coils, and started for alt least 10 times, and readings were.....0 ..Zero..Nada

    Then I did a test on both cylinders next to 3, and both cylinder 2 and 4 gave me the same result. 184 PSI...no bad.
    Well, stuck rings are long-shot but give it a shot.

    The M54 has stuck ring problems but far less-so M52. They changed the design apparently.

    Did you try a "wet test"? That means squirting some oil in the plug hole before the test. That will often show you if its rings vs bent valve. If a big shot of oil lets you make pressure for a minute or two, then its the rings. If its exactly the same, then its likely a bent valve (or some other 'bad' problem).
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    If squirting oil helps the compression test, get a cheap USB camera and put it into spark plug hole. Rotate engine so #3 piston is at bottom of stroke. Look for damage and scratches on the cylinder. If no damage, try the magic solvent to free up the rings. If the cylinder is all scored up, time to find a another engine.
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    Did not do the wet test.Did not know about, but good en fast explanation thanks. Will do that on Tuesday when I am back .
    If cylinder is damage, or head has to com out...then I need to take a good thought what I want.

    Like I said before, I bought this car very cheap. Been working on it for the last couple of months trying to get it in better shape. Unfortunately body work needs attention. Wanted to tackle this,but If i first need to put a lot of money just to get it back on the road, then i don't know if that is worth..

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