Faulty DME or faulty engine due to timing chain slip?

[WhiteKnight976]

Hi All. I'm am currently trying to help a good friend with an issue related to her 2013 X3 XDrive 2.8. The vehicle has roughly 130k miles and has been maintained it's entire life by the local BMW dealer. It was recently in a side/front end collision where she was hit by another driver at fault. Since this has happened, we are trying to figure out what to do as it doesn't run anymore. After the accident, the X3 ran for roughly 700 miles at which point, it would only crank over and not start.

The vehicle was towed to BMW in which they diagnosed a faulty/failed DME and possible a high pressure pump. Because of insurance being involved, a second opinion was needed. Another shop (BMW specialist but not a dealer) diagnosed the vehicle with a slipped timing chain due to impact from the accident. The 2nd shop findings are are based off of a scantool which is monitoring cam/crank signal sync during engine cranking. Now, my thinking is that this would obviously be out of sync if there is a board issue with the DME. Physical timing was not checked during the diagnosis.

So now I have a few questions to help her with the next few steps. Does anyone know if the vehicle will start with a DME from the same year/spec vehicle? While I know the VIN will not match, I do not know anything about BMW security related to the key/DME pair etc. I would like to help verify what is wrong since we have two very different diagnosis from two reputable shops.

As a note, I have plenty of experience tuning vehicles (using both ProEFI AEM on my Supra), all the hand held units on other cars, Ross-Tech/VCDS on my Audi's, etc. Does anything exist like Ross-Tech exist for the BMW world? Maybe that could be leveraged to program a used DME for testing?

Thanks!
Matt

[328 Power 04]

With the tools you have, you cannot in any way put a used DME in for testing. The immobilizer security is quite complex, and it requires a lot of know-how of the BMW systems to make a used one work correctly.

[WhiteKnight976]

So there are no tools such as VCDS for Audi that a consumer can purchase for BMW diagnostics, programming, etc?

[bmwdirtracer]

Yes, certainly. There is ISTA. ISTA-D is diagnosis, ISTA-P is programming. Abel (328 Power 04) is the master of both. However, neither will make a DME from another car work in a 2013 vehicle. The sytem is not made for that - it would totally defeat all the security measures which BMW has built in. With ISTA-D, and some basic testing, a good BMW tech should be able to diagnose the issue.

The dealership has the ISTA-D, but, like any shop, there are good techs and not-so-good techs.

Personally, I'm quite hesitant to believe either diagnosis fully. The DME isn't likely to have been fried in the accident, and then died 700 miles later....that's pretty far fetched. Similarly, I'd rather doubt that the accident caused the timing chain to jump time 700 miles later.

This is not to say that the HPFP isn't bad, or that the cam timing isn't out, But given the 700 miles in between the accident and the no-start, I'd tend to think the accident isn't the cause.

Step one should be to read all the codes from ISTA-D, then follow through with any test plans ISTA suggests. Then a few basic manual tests would be appropriate: Spark, fuel delivery to the HPFP, fuel delivery FROM the HPFP, Make sure all the grounds are tight, especially for the DME box, engine, etc.

Now, there ARE problems with the N20 timing chain, and BME even extended the warranty to 70k miles for this item; of course, this car has almost twice that mileage. But, again, that's nothing to do with the accident.

[WhiteKnight976]

You are correct, there are good techs and not-so-good techs. I personally spoke with the tech at the BMW dealer as we were picking the X3 up to tow it. He was far easier to deal with than the folks at the service desk. The tech said he did try swapping the high pressure pump and it made no difference. He was fairly convinced (after having the car for a week) that the only issue was the DME. The dealer said they would only program a brand new DME provided by them. So, we have not had any luck trying to find anyone who can or will program a used DME.

I would agree that the accident isn't at any fault and this would most likely be an unfortunate, however, unrelated series of events.

I do believe the 2nd shop provided a series of codes from their diagnosis. I'll try to track them down and post them in this thread.

As another question. If the DME is faulty, the only option is to have a brand new one programmed? If so, I would find this a bit odd since there are used DME's listed for sale online all over the place?

[WhiteKnight976]

Here are a few images from the 2nd diagnosis.

Codes













Cam / Crank signal sync




Valvetronic testing








No notes on this test/scan?

[bmwdirtracer]

There are a very few people who have VERY special knowledge and equipment, who can wipe a used MODERN DME, and put the car's old DME's knowledge into the used replacement. I am very lucky, and know one of these guys, and he helps me, and our shop, very regularly, with every kind of BMW computer issue that I can't handle. (And I have ISTA D&P, as well as Autologic and other high-level pro diag computers).

He can make a used DME work for this vehicle, although he'd need the X3's DME in hand. You'd also need to send him money, in advance, because he's going to have to locate, buy, and wipe a used DME, then transfer the X3's VIN and rolling-codes into it. Even then, it's possible you'd need ISTA to introduce the replacement DME - although I've not had to do this, with one of this guy's swaps. Note, please: He does not do this for a living, he does it to help BMW friends.

He knows about your girl's issue, WhiteKnight, so I'll leave it to him whether he wants to offer his help. I trust him one thousand per cent.

Now, he won't mind me saying that I really don't trust the diagnosis. I might change my mind if I read the codes from ISTA, or at least Autologic.

[328 Power 04]

They were certainly using ISTA... but couldn't they do themselves a favor and delete old inexisting codes? Most of those are not currently active.


The one that does stick out to me is:
134F01 Valvetronic Adjustment Range, Master adaptation outside tolerances

plus a few other codes that suggest the timing is off.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't think it's the dme. But I don't have much proof.

Someone who is good at scope readings can put more input than me.

[bmwdirtracer]

We overlapped on our posts. I've now looked at the codes, and all I can say is HOLY CRAP.

There's absolutely nowhere to start, with that list of 140 codes. I'd have to note that the DME isn't communicating with other computers. However....this could be a bad ground for the DME, a bad fuse, a wire that was connected, but then the bolt wasn't tightened.

As a tech, I'd first suspect my own work, if the car had recently received major work. Or, maybe a bus line has been damaged. I'd start by clearing every code, then perhaps seeing whether I could read engine speed (starter turning) from, say, the EGS (trans) or ABS modules. And truly, I'd REALLY want ISTA for this.

[328 Power 04]

Now, my thinking is that this would obviously be out of sync if there is a board issue with the DME.

This is a bad assumption. It is much more likely if the scope showed out of sync (did it?), and codes for improperly installed camshafts, that the engine is indeed out of time.
The scope was attached directly to the cam/crank sensors, no?

- - - Updated - - -

We overlapped on our posts. I've now looked at the codes, and all I can say is HOLY CRAP.

There's absolutely nowhere to start, with that list of 140 codes. I'd have to note that the DME isn't communicating with other computers. However....this could be a bad ground for the DME, a bad fuse, a wire that was connected, but then the bolt wasn't tightened.

As a tech, I'd first suspect my own work, if the car had recently received major work. Or, maybe a bus line has been damaged. I'd start by clearing every code, then perhaps seeing whether I could read engine speed (starter turning) from, say, the EGS (trans) or ABS modules. And truly, I'd REALLY want ISTA for this.

Most of those codes are old and Present=No

[bmwdirtracer]

Yeah, my friend, I saw the valvetronic codes too, but there was also "line disconnect" for the valvetronic, and, like you, I didn't see a single cam/crank correlation code.

- - - Updated - - -

Damn, now I'm overlapping with you, Abel! What's "NO"?

- - - Updated - - -

Oops, got it....yeah, that was my thought too, which is why I said codes need to be deleted to see where to begin diagnosis.

- - - Updated - - -

So it seems to me, WhiteKnight, that both Abel and I are noting a huge plethora of ancient , likely irrelevant codes, but a distinct lack of cam/crank correlation codes, which is what you see when the timing "slips". Diagnosis is very much incomplete.

[bmwdirtracer]

WhiteKnight: There are 4 grounds to the DME, and 6 fuses. Has every one of these connections been checked?

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...onics/DjSE51Jf

Here's a picture of the main DME ground connection, on the engine block. Check this bolt first. (X6454)

https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/f...i-sav/CGxWlseX

[WhiteKnight976]

I honestly do not know. My only involvement thus far was to help facilitate with the towing and speaking with insurance. Since this all started initially as an insurance claim (which has been denied), it was required to go to the dealer and the 2nd BMW shop.

At this point, I would be happy to take a look over whatever I can to help. As well, I'm trying to be cautious to help guide her in regards to what to do. She is already in the hole around $1k just from towing and diagnosis. So, definitely need to plan out the next few steps carefully.

Regarding the non-present codes....thank you. I did not know that field was representative of old codes. The only tool I currently own (that I know will somewhat work with the BMW) is a ElmScan 327 tool. I do not know if that will successfully clear the historical codes to start from ground zero.

Also, regarding the ISTA comments. I Googled this and found all kinds of different links. Is this similar to VCDS for the Audi/VW cars? Anyone have a link to describe exactly what I should be looking for and possible shopping for?

[WhiteKnight976]

My apologies if this post is doubled. I just tried to respond and it doesn't look like it posted.

Anyway, thank you for the information so far. I have no been involved in the diagnosis thus far. Due to this starting off as an insurance claim, it has all been handled by the BMW dealer and the 2nd BMW shop.

I will be happy to look for the fuse locations and if everything has power. We have no idea what the shops actually did with the car so far. I'm extremely worried after seeing that a majority of those codes are not present.

All I have that will connect to the BMW is a ElmScan 327. Does anyone know if this will clear the codes successfully? I did Google ITSA and see a bunch of different links. Does anyone have a link to more information on it or where I could check pricing?

[328 Power 04]

If you haven't checked yet, how's the cyl compression?

[WhiteKnight976]

I have tried to post 2 times and for some reason they are not showing up. Hopefully this one will show up. Since I don't know if this will show up, I'll keep the answers short.


Cylinder compression has not been checked.

Physical Cam/Crank timing has not been checked.

I do not know if all of the DME fuses have been checked. I will check if those links show actual fuse locations.

Can someone fill me in more on the ITSA? I see a few different links when searching for it. I see some for $500, $2000, $75 (ebay), etc.

[bmwdirtracer]

The links which I gave you are to the actual factory wiring diagrams, service manuals, etc., etc.

They have some special qualities. If you click on anything written in blue, you can see a picture of the physical location of that item. The Integrated Supply Module (basically an additional relay/fuse box) is a common culprit for a no-start.

Does the engine sound "normal" when cranking? Have you tried accessing underneath the engine cover? If you do this, you can check for fuel delivery and spark (not at the same time!) And, a compression test, as Abel suggests, too.

I'm going to let Abel advise on ISTA. I use the good one, with the ICOM Next A head: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...a/81312360883/

But when it comes to getting set up with ISTA or other computers, Abel is your best resource.

[WhiteKnight976]

The links which I gave you are to the actual factory wiring diagrams, service manuals, etc., etc.

They have some special qualities. If you click on anything written in blue, you can see a picture of the physical location of that item. The Integrated Supply Module (basically an additional relay/fuse box) is a common culprit for a no-start.

Does the engine sound "normal" when cranking? Have you tried accessing underneath the engine cover? If you do this, you can check for fuel delivery and spark (not at the same time!) And, a compression test, as Abel suggests, too.

I'm going to let Abel advise on ISTA. I use the good one, with the ICOM Next A head: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...a/81312360883/

But when it comes to getting set up with ISTA or other computers, Abel is your best resource.

Ok, that's great! I did not realize that those were factory manuals. Those will be extremely helpful with the next few steps.

The engine does sound normal when cranking. It did start a few times, however, it would idle at around 200 rpm for maybe 2 seconds then die. However, that was maybe 2 times.

Now for the code issue. Does anyone know if the Elmscan OBD2 standard stuff will clear the BMW codes? Or maybe something like this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/FULL-2019-B...JcO8:rk:3:pf:0