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Thread: E36 323i 1999 m52b25 Misfire and (hissing?) noise when warm

  1. #76
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    There are two things you need to verify before I can conclude anything:
    * Check the voltages under different conditions
    * Use a known-good MAF and see what happens then

    Right now it's possible that both MAFs are bad (Siemens due to being old or dirty and Stark due to bad calibration/design)..


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  2. #77
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    Ok i tested my friends MAF today, here is the inpa values with it, some when i just started it and some when i just drove for short while then checked values again: https://imgur.com/a/Z74nrWU
    Car would still behave the same, exact same misfire when i am like 20 km/h then gas down on 3rd just sounds like a boat (high load) but 2.5/3k rpm its fine (better)

    And i got some screens on testo with a graph, i took a pic of everything i saw and i revved the car one time on the Air mass kg/h, you'll see one big spike that's me revving. Others is just idle
    And while i did these testo graphs im using the STARK MAF. here they are: https://imgur.com/a/BMfu5BC

  3. #78
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    Idle pending up and down, alternator making noise when I put on rear window defroster, misfiring when I give a lot of gas on like 3rd gear at 20 km/h or just press gas pedal down hella fast it will also sound like a boat,
    the thing is when I’m driving is that let’s say I’m driving up a hill on high gear then give more gas it will misfire, like it don’t run on all cylinders.
    And sound like a boat until I stop accelerating and push gas pedal more gently.

  4. #79
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    Cool that you got testO running.

    OK.. I think we can assume your Siemens MAF is okay, as it gives comparable values to your friend's Siemens MAF. I'm quite certain you can return the Stark MAF and ask for a refund..

    Lambda integrator is very negative. This needs some explanation: In INPA the lambda integrator (additive adaptation) is reported as a percentage of the maximum injection time deviation time, which is 0.35ms if I'm correct. In testO the real deviation is showed, in ms.. So -33 and -32 are extremely close to the max the DME allows, and hence, very close to triggering the 202/203 errors. To me it's quite certain the Stark MAF is severely exaggerating the air flow, by at least 10-20%.

    Can you test some more tomorrow. And log the both lambda integrator values, not the lambda heating values. Also log rpm, engine load, ignition angle, injection time, camshaft pos.
    Then, if possible, try and test while driving the car and try to remember in what conditions or what time since you started the recording, the misfires occur. Also be sure to use the Siemens MAF.
    If possible, then export the log file and upload it here, so we can have a look at it. And/or make some screenshots of the charts at the times when the misfires occurred.

    Update: P.S. Also add battery voltage to the log file if possible.
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-15-2019 at 07:33 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  5. #80
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    Ok i installed the SIEMENS original MAF, then turned on ignition and i heard this clicking noise which i think is from the alternator: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0YhZbE2ONo

    Then i started it and this is the inpa values after maybe 1-2min: https://imgur.com/a/qqnwl6S

    And here's the inpa values after maybe 7-9 min: https://imgur.com/a/JWfwjn6

    And while it warmed up for maybe 8min i logged with testo and idk if this works but i uploaded the file here:
    http://www.mediafire.com/file/m84dni...85834.csv/file
    At the end i was revving it 4 times, then 3-4 more times faster so it would misfire slightly.

    Also, battery voltage
    when only ignition turned on= 11.11
    when on idle= 13.94/14.4
    Last edited by reeeee; 01-16-2019 at 02:07 PM.

  6. #81
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    Cool. Thanks for uploading the csv file.. Interesting. I've loaded it in a spreadsheet (OpenOffice or LibreOffice Calc handles csv files fine; Excel mostly not).
    I don't really see things going wrong. Vanos stays off because you're not driving (can't create enough engine load to activate vanos while not driving around).

    Two things might tell something though:

    * Inlet air intake temperature stays quite low, at 9.5 degrees C, mostly all the time. Perhaps that's okay, but I'd expect it to rise a little. You're in Sweden, so outside temperature is probably even quite a bit lower. So that might be okay values after all. Here on the Canary islands (during coldest part of winter 18-22C degrees during the day and virtually never less than 14C during the coldest of the night/morning) my IAT levels are always quite a bit higher at say 40-50 degrees with engine warmed.

    * I see that the bank 1 and bank 2 lambda integrator values at times show a difference of up to 20. So the combustion in bank 1 is different than in bank 2. In general bank 1 lowers the injection times (bank 1 oxygen sensors sees too rich mixture) while the DME raises injection time in bank (bank 2 oxygen sensor sees too lean mixture). So that may mean that one of the two oxygen sensors isn't working very well anymore, or that there is for example a stuffed injector in, I think, bank 1 (not sure though; might also be bad coil; not 100% sure how bad spark or plugged injector show up at oxygen sensor reading).

    If possible, can you do another test, while driving, and provoking the misfiring and for example also flooring it in 3rd gear at 20-30 km/h like you described. Be sure to not watch the laptop screen and just let testO do the logging, for your safety. With an USB extension cable you can lead the cable in the direction of the windshield wipers passenger side (enough clearance for the hood to close properly), and then through the passenger window, and place the laptop in the passenger side seat. Also be sure to warm up the engine sufficiently during the drive, so I can check if the IAT sensor values increase a bit.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  7. #82
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    Yeah it’s pretty cold here, when I did that log I think it was like -18 degrees Celsius.
    And I’m not sure if the cable is long enough but I can try later today,

    What about the clicking noise? Do you think that’s telling something?

    I also got a multimeter and will check the battery voltage when ignition is off also.

    And should I disconnect the o2 sensors maybe and send pic of inpa and send Testo log?

  8. #83
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    Now when i came come i heard this clicking noise, but from like the ASC throttle body/intake hose, heres how it sounded like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v14pKjOQ-8
    And the 202 and 203 errors haven't came back, since i swapped back to the siemens MAF yesterday.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    These are the inpa readings when i let it idle after i got home: https://imgur.com/a/2oU7HcJ'
    And as you can see in the pics, the 202 and 203 errors hasn't showed up aswell, so might be that stark maf as you said.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I also got the cable to reach thru the window and i started the logger while driving then i accelerated a good amount of times on 4th gear and it would sound like a boat while i gain speed. And sometimes i accelerate on lower gear and it dont misfire also.
    Hope this says something: http://www.mediafire.com/file/afqo81...81949.csv/file
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    And the voltage when nothing is turned on, not even ignition was 12.16
    Last edited by reeeee; 01-17-2019 at 02:38 PM.

  9. #84
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    Checked the log file..
    Alas the DME didn't go into closed loop, so I didn't get any feedback from the oxygen sensors (lambda integrators at 0 everywhere).
    Not sure if you would have to drive a bit longer, or if something is going wrong..

    Without lambda integrator values I can't really conclude anything.. So, best to take the laptop along on a longer trip (say 10-20 minutes), making sure the exhaust and oxygen sensors heat up completely.

    Vanos seems to work fine.. Moves from 22 to 47 camshaft degrees and seems able to hold it at 47 without trouble (so your Vanos seals seem fine).

    Intake air temp sensor today seems a bit high.. Higher than coolant temp, which is odd. Starts at almost 61C and drops very slowly to 58C.. Seems a bit high for the climate there.

    Coolant temp slowly rises from 50C to 72C, never fully getting on official running temperature of +/- 92C; perhaps thermostat remains open; or the engine just needs a couple minutes more driving time in cold weather.

    Ticking noise:
    You can try to disconnect the ASC sensor and ASC actuator connector and see if that stops the ticking.

    That the Siemens MAF doesn't raise 202/203 errors confirms my thought that the Siemens is OK and the Stark MAF is bad (exaggerating air flow by 20%).
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-17-2019 at 06:45 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  10. #85
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    Yeah it’s much possible that it didn’t heat up properly, I just took a short ride.
    I can start a log and drive when I get home, then it will be warm.

  11. #86
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    Ok i got some pretty big news....

    So the idle with the siemens MAF is way worse, its misfiring even when idling.
    So when i came home i left the engine on idle misifiring, it also did the click noise, i tried to disconnect the wires on the body, and around, 3 of them. But it still would click.
    Then i connected it to inpa and this is how it looked: https://imgur.com/a/2fGnwEp
    The errors prob from me disconnecting, but look at engine roughness on cyl5
    -
    I removed the coil on cyl 5 and guess what, it was the one that got little broken this summer but it still worked, so i swapped place with that coil to the coil on cyl 1 and started the car, connected inpa and now the roughness was super high and kept going up as it would misfire.
    Here is some pics of the coil and roughness after the swap:
    https://imgur.com/a/RoP7fAV

    Soooooooooo is it the coil thats causing this?
    Last edited by reeeee; 01-18-2019 at 10:27 AM.

  12. #87
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    Assuming your friends E36 runs well and you both have M50s or or both have M52s just swap ignition coils from his to yours.

  13. #88
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    Yeah that’s what I thought I would do, but how and why would a bad foul cause a misfire when warm? 🤔 And escpecially under high load, example: going 20km/h in 3rd them flooring

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by reeeee View Post
    Yeah that’s what I thought I would do, but how and why would a bad foul cause a misfire when warm? 樂 And escpecially under high load, example: going 20km/h in 3rd them flooring
    Electrical resistance is related to temp, could be one reason. More fuel is injected under more load, which means more fuel to ignite is one reason why high load affects it. Here's what I went through trying to diagnose it:

    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ittent-Misfire

  15. #90
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    Awesome. Good to hear, hopefully this solves it all and i can go back to enjoying driving it :P
    Thanks for the answer

  16. #91
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    Yes! You definitely need a new coil rubber boot, or a complete coil. Great diagnosis!
    This also explains the big difference between bank 1 and 2 w.r.t. fuel trim (bank 1 is leaned down while bank 2 is strongly enriched).

    Inlet air temp (@68C) still seems quite high to me, especially since you're in +/- -18 degrees C Sweden.. That much heat soak seems impossible to me, especially if you're driving around (driving log also showed values above 60C). I think it's even higher than what I see here where the outside temperatures are in general always 20-25C all year round. So that's something you need to keep a look on, and perhaps just replace the sensor to be sure. Because it's not that expensive. It's in the bottom of the intake manifold, near the throttle body, so not very easy to get to, but doable. I think you'd best remove the throttle body. Or, you can just remove the connector from the IAT sensor. Actually, I'm not certain how the DME uses the IAT sensor value, as it's not strictly necessary, as the MAF sensor already measures air mass (which includes influences like temperature). So, I think the DME can run very fine without the IAT sensor connected.
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-18-2019 at 01:45 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  17. #92
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    I did some research on what the IAT actually does in the M52.. The DME doesn't need it at all to get a proper reading of the mass of air being sucked into the engine, as the MAF gives the complete picture, independent of the temperature (mass already reflects the air mass and density which changes with temperature).

    So, what I think is, it is used to fine-tune the ignition timing. So, if the IAT is giving wrong values, it will affect the torque of the engine a lot.
    See this topic: https://webcache.googleusercontent.c...&client=safari .

    Quote (after installing proper IAT sensor): "I'm happy to say it worked brilliantly! Sure enough, once everything was assembled it fired up perfectly and sat there idling quietly. I took it out for a drive and the engine was so smooth with none of the spluttering at low revs it previously had."

    So, go change the coil for a new or known-good used one. And if that doesn't solve it all, go get a new IAT sensor.
    I'm having some serious doubt w.r.t. your IAT sensor as it's showing higher values than mine in a completely different climate (40 deg C difference right now) and doesn't cool down after driving for several minutes. That can't be good.. But not 100% sure of course.

    I think that should solve are your problems.. Good luck! And let us know the results!

    P.S. Also learned (in the RomRaider forum, lots of DME expertise) that mounting the IAT in the intake manifold causes a lot of heat soak at idle, because of the high vacuum in the manifold, which hinders the IAT from releasing its heat.. So, it would have been better if BMW engineers had mounted it in the throttle body (on the side where there is no vacuum) or, better, in the rubber boot between MAF and throttle body (metal of throttle body also causes more heat soak).. It's a big improvement that the M52 IAT has a plastic housing, compared to the M50 metal housing (more heat soak). Also the M52 IAT is a different type of sensor which reacts faster to changes than the older M50 model.

    Update: I'm now researching what the IAT really does in the MS41 DME.. Check it out here:
    #34 .
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-18-2019 at 09:57 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  18. #93
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    ****UPDATE****

    Just swapped the coil with a new one, and its running like a god now. No misfire and i can finally go back to enjoying driving it.

    I wanna thank u all for coming in here and helping me, especially ed323i who have helped me all the way from the beginning of december.

    Really awesome community! Thank you!



    - - - Updated - - -

    and the sensor i will get replaced, thank you for pointing it out as faulty huge thanks
    Last edited by reeeee; 01-19-2019 at 05:33 PM.

  19. #94
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    Great news! Very happy to hear it's running fine again! Thanks for the kudos :-) .

    I'm not 100% sure about the sensor. If the engine is running perfectly fine, perhaps it was just a batch of strange data in the log file.. On the other hand, heat soak of +80 degrees C seems excessive (-18 degrees ambient temperature versus +60 degrees IAT temperature), so perhaps it's a good idea to just swap the IAT sensor to be sure..

    I assume you're using the original Siemens MAF sensor.. Are you going to return the Stark MAF sensor? (you can indicate that it's giving a too high voltage, compared to 2 original Siemens MAF sensors, and you prefer to return the product).
    Last edited by ed323i; 01-19-2019 at 01:02 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  20. #95
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    Yeah I’m using the Siemens MAF, I’m gonna send back the faulty STARK MAF

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