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Thread: PSA: 540i cranks no-start, no-SES/CEL, no-codes... try pulling fuel pump fuse

  1. #1
    geargrinder's Avatar
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    PSA: 540i cranks no-start, no-SES/CEL, no-codes... try pulling fuel pump fuse

    Just last week I had a repeat of an incident from a few years ago...

    Jumped in the car after an afternoon bike ride, went to fire it up, and after a couple stumbles... crank no start. Cranks fine. No SES. No codes. Just no start. Not a hint of even firing/stumble after the first or second try.
    Of course got that sinking "will this be a stranding?" pucker feeling but... having had this happen a few years back, when out of town and it took me some time to figure out... I had some hope I could sort it right away.

    Sure enough, it was flooded. Pulled the fuel pump fuses in the glove box, fired right up. Ran 5-10 seconds until it stalled from out of gas, put fuses back, started fine. Super easy fix, took all of about 4 minutes. Unlike last time in which taxi rides and long hoofing walks and other hassles were involved...

    But this really made me think its worth reminding people... should always remember the chance of flooding like this in a crank-no-start-no-SES-no-codes situation.

    Thoughts:
    • Common traits to my occurrences:
      • Ambient just below freezing.
      • Parked between 1-2hrs. Engine would have cooled off a bit, but still should have been somewhat warm inside.
      • First and second crank did have a stumble, then nothing at all after that.

    • Pulling the fuel pump fuse is an 'instant' fix, at least on an M62... it works mint.
    • Long-cranking is bad idea for borewash reasons, if it ain't startin after a handful of tries, STOP.
    • No, holding the pedal to the floor does not work - at least not on the DBW M62TU. Might work on cable throttle cars but not here. You possibly could get a fire from having a helper hold the TB wide open while you crank until it fires, but that'd be a huge hassle and prob cause a bunch of codes and other problems, the fuse is the super easy 'stay warm and cozy in the car' fix.
    • Perhaps if I'd not stopped the crank so fast on the 1st try it would have caught, but when you're used to instant-start on a car, and, if you're sensitive to not over-abusing your starter motor with long cranks, you stop the crank out of instinct/habit.
    • Certainly maybe this fluke is related to my specific situation aka the blower tune etc. and something about my tune is more sensitive, but my suspicion is that its related to an engine-temp faulty read situation. My best hypothesis is the dual sensor has cooled off either more (probably) or less (less probably) than the engine has, and then that incorrect reading to the DME is right on the cusp of some cold/warm start criteria in some DME map. Most likely the sensor read too cold, the engine went into cold-start-enrichment, too much gas, choked out, then flooded. Dual temp sensor is very new and otherwise all readings are proper / correct / in sync.
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  2. #2
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    Interesting! Like the fuse pull. I've never had that in my pre TU. LI key the temp sensor and cold start enrichment playing near the cliff as uou said.
    98 540i 6, 525 whp, 120 mph 1/4, V3 Si S/C'er @16 psi, W/A I/C, Water/Meth, Supersprint Headers, HJS Cats, 3" Custom Exhaust, UUC Twin Disc, Wavetrac LSD, GC Coil Overs, Monoball TA, AEM FP, Aeromotive FPR, AEM Failsafe AFR/Boost, Style 65's w/275's, M5 Steering Box, Eibach Sways, M3 Shifter, Evans Coolant, 85 Deg Stat, PWM Fan, 10" Subs, B.A. speakers, Grom Aux/BT, Still Rolling as my DD!

  3. #3
    JimLev's Avatar
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    Sure you don't have a few slightly leaky injectors?
    Nice quick fix, never had that problem but I'll remember your fix.

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    geargrinder's Avatar
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    Pretty sure jim. It’s only been these 2 incidents, otherwise startups and trims are perfect, overall car is running mint.
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
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    2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
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    Maybe if your tune sends a lot of fuel when cold, your dual temp sensor is false reading your engine temp and flooding it.
    Diehard E39 driver.
    I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
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    geargrinder's Avatar
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    Yeah thats basically my theory, something like that.

    Either the temp reading is slightly incorrect due to just some flukey thermal radiation situation... (simply reading temp wrong) or...
    Its on some weird cliff (as philly cleverly called it) of 'cold start detection', forcing it deeper into the cold start map than its supposed to be... (reading right temp but that temp shouldn't really trigger cold-start) or...
    Some value in a map is a little too rich/abrupt... (something like some rarely hit values for a "warmish cold-start" are a little too rich)

    I'll have to look but most cars have both cold-start enrichment and cold-idle enrichment, assuming ME7 has that, it could be either of those maps (or sets of maps, knowing how insanely complicated the OEM ECU's are...). I suppose the problem value could not just be in a fueling map but in a cold-start timing map as well.

    Again, I daily this thing in winter conditions so, having seen it twice in years I'm not super worried about it, esp since its easy to workaround. If it happened more I'd try to force an occurence and use testo to log a bunch of temperatures and injection figures and try to extrapolate what maps its hitting. But with this track record, at this point if it DOES start to happen more often, then indeed I'll start suspecting some other hardware problem as Jim suggested above...
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
    2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
    2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
    2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)

    Former:

    1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
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  7. #7
    JimLev's Avatar
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    Did you mess around with the temp map in the DME a while ago?
    Wonder if that had any effect on the fuel injection map.

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    Damn! Now I need to move fixing the stuck glove box latch to the top of the list.
    I've been seeing odd behavior lately in that if I just get in and turn the key my 540 starts up but there's a squealing belt up front. Takes a few seconds for the squeal to die down.
    The strange part is if I turn the key to on but don't actually flip it to start for a few seconds when I do flip to start she starts fine and there's no squealing.
    I've checked it a number of times and while it doesn't seem temperature dependent it does seem like there's more squealing if it's cold out.
    The cold idle doesn't seem any different so I'm not sure what it might really be related to as there shouldn't be any connection between a primed fuel system and accessory belt tension.
    I've checked belt tension pretty regularly and that seems good, the belts are fairly new, and look like their in good shape so I think I have the obvious things checked off...

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Did you mess around with the temp map in the DME a while ago?
    Wonder if that had any effect on the fuel injection map.
    Only using Mirza's 88C T-stat fixes, which should only concern Aux fan activation triggers and temp range errors, shouldn't have been anything to do with hitting cold start triggers etc.

    Plus the other time this happened identically, I didnt even have the 88C in yet...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dwgates View Post
    Damn! Now I need to move fixing the stuck glove box latch to the top of the list.
    I've been seeing odd behavior lately in that if I just get in and turn the key my 540 starts up but there's a squealing belt up front. Takes a few seconds for the squeal to die down.
    The strange part is if I turn the key to on but don't actually flip it to start for a few seconds when I do flip to start she starts fine and there's no squealing.
    I've checked it a number of times and while it doesn't seem temperature dependent it does seem like there's more squealing if it's cold out.
    The cold idle doesn't seem any different so I'm not sure what it might really be related to as there shouldn't be any connection between a primed fuel system and accessory belt tension.
    I've checked belt tension pretty regularly and that seems good, the belts are fairly new, and look like their in good shape so I think I have the obvious things checked off...
    That's a weird one. Prob deserves its own thread. But are you sure its' a belt? Have you ever popped the hood and had somebody else do the starting so you can trace it down?
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
    2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
    2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
    2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)

    Former:

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    Yes the squeal is probably something that belongs in its own thread. First I'll have to enlist the little woman's help to see if I can spot the source of the noise just to be sure it's not something really obvious.
    Your thread and the cold (non)start got me thinking about my minor annoyance though as I would expect the only thing holding at the on position prior to starting does is allows the fuel system to come up to pressure.
    It's curious to me that fuel system pressure would be the variable responsible for turning this noise on and off but you're right, first thing is to nail down what/ where the noise is.

  11. #11
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    Well there's other things that make noise under the hood at startup... most significantly the Secondary Air system. Also a bunch of stuff that runs on PWM and hums and buzzes... sometimes a PWM solenoid makes a bit of noise if its old and/or cold or whatever. But most of those are funny little "fine whine" noises, not a real loud squeal like a belt.
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
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    Could it be the crank sensor?

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    Thanks, GG. This helped me yesterday with a '95 Discovery. The power lock function was acting up, so the car thought it was still locked and disabled the starter. After flipping through a CD manual, the power lock fix looked like might take some work, but I could disable the no-start function by snipping and joining two wires near the alarm unit.

    After I did that the starter ran, thankfully, but the engine just stumbled and wouldn't light. I thought it might be flooded and was gong to block the throttle open, to help the excess fuel air out. Then I remembered this post. I pulled the fuel pump fuse; it stumbled, started, and died. Then it did fine after I put the fuse back it.

    (Don't EVER buy a mid-1990's Land Rover, unless you want a way to teach a high school step-son how to fix cars. For that it's great, because EVERYTHING has broken on that damn thing. It's a rare 5-speed and fun enough when it's working -- great for high school and college. Now my grown step-son is so attached to it he doesn't want me to get rid of it.)
    Last edited by R Shaffner; 12-16-2018 at 06:54 AM.

  14. #14
    geargrinder's Avatar
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    LOL. The shop had a 90's Land Rover in a while ago (tho' a RR not a Disco) - they look absolutely very cool, love the box styling, but they are notorious disasters. This one needed an entire engine.

    Glad to have helped somebody so quick....
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    I remember the original thread on this. There was so much head scratching going on because everything had been accounted for. It was a sprained brain moment for sure. How did you ever diagnose it the first time round? Did you pull the plugs or did it try and start next day? How did you diagnose an EFI had flooded? Either way, the gofundme account I setup for you as a flood victim was funny as hell.


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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1gr8e39 View Post
    How did you diagnose an EFI had flooded?
    IIRC a local (I was out of state away on long weekend w/ the wifer) BMWhead suggested flooding as I was buzzing him with questions about good local shops in case I had to punt it. I believe I also smelled gas that time but that time I'd tried cranking a ton more (ie. flooded it a ton more). Never got to the point of pulling plugs, thankfully (car was outside in a frozen dirt restaurant parking lot in winter conditions).

    Quote Originally Posted by 1gr8e39 View Post
    Either way, the gofundme account I setup for you as a flood victim was funny as hell.
    Sadly I don't recall that part - maybe PTSD making me forget details - but I fully agree that IS funny as hell.
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
    2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
    2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
    2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)

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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Yeah thats basically my theory, something like that.

    Either the temp reading is slightly incorrect due to just some flukey thermal radiation situation... (simply reading temp wrong) or...
    Its on some weird cliff (as philly cleverly called it) of 'cold start detection', forcing it deeper into the cold start map than its supposed to be... (reading right temp but that temp shouldn't really trigger cold-start) or...
    Some value in a map is a little too rich/abrupt... (something like some rarely hit values for a "warmish cold-start" are a little too rich)

    I'll have to look but most cars have both cold-start enrichment and cold-idle enrichment, assuming ME7 has that, it could be either of those maps (or sets of maps, knowing how insanely complicated the OEM ECU's are...). I suppose the problem value could not just be in a fueling map but in a cold-start timing map as well.

    Again, I daily this thing in winter conditions so, having seen it twice in years I'm not super worried about it, esp since its easy to workaround. If it happened more I'd try to force an occurence and use testo to log a bunch of temperatures and injection figures and try to extrapolate what maps its hitting. But with this track record, at this point if it DOES start to happen more often, then indeed I'll start suspecting some other hardware problem as Jim suggested above...
    Now that I'm getting into MS41 I wish ME7 was that simple and easy to tinker with. Probably right you are, sir, one of the values might be bonkers and you rarely encounter a set of situations that triggers it but when you do it floods.
    Diehard E39 driver.
    I'd rather die or take a walk before driving an E60 or any BMW made after Y2K.
    ​"Your momma's so ugly she makes Bangle cars look nice"

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