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Thread: Why won't BMW NA do the "right" thing?

  1. #1
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    Why won't BMW NA do the "right" thing?

    Hello fellow Bimmer fans/drivers,

    I'm writing today to start a conversation about these cars we love so much, the problems we encounter along the way and how much we are willing to sacrifice for "The Ultimate Driving Experience". Why do the most beautiful things, the most passion evoking things always seem to cause us the most trouble, heartache and struggle? Why are we attracted to things that complicate our lives while costing us tons of money and frustrating us?

    I've started wrestling with these questions more seriously with regard to my 2010 335d and I'm really curious what others have to say. I absolutely love my car; the looks, the feel, the drive, the sounds, the smell. It's a bad ass car! What I don't love are the mechanical problems and the never ending trips to the dealer. I live in Sedona, AZ and the nearest dealer is in the Phoenix metro (North Scottsdale) which is a 2 hour drive without traffic and there's almost always traffic. That means at least a 5 hour trip to drop my car off, pick up a loaner and return home. Then once the car is "fixed" it's another 5 hours to go back and retrieve my car. I've done this countless times over the last 8 years for a myriad of different issues with the car and I should point out that I'm the original owner and I purchased the car new from the North Scottsdale dealership. On more than 2 occasions I've gone down to pick up my car and the engine malfunction or check engine light has come back on before I even got home. One time the light came back on before I left the dealer's lot! That's the most frustrating. The last time I had this happen I was able to get the dealership to send a valet up to Sedona with a loaner car to pick up my car so I didn't have to drive back down. Anyone who has worked with a BMW dealership knows how rare that sort of treatment is, especially for a low life 3 series owner ; )

    In the last 6 months the dealer has had to send valet/quality control driver's up to Sedona 3 times to pick up or drop off my car. It should have been 4 times but I went down myself this last time to return the loaner car because I had other things to do in Phoenix and I wanted to be nice. Does this kind of vehicle reliability sound normal to anyone? Hopefully not. I'm convinced that BMW doesn't know what's wrong with my car or how to fix it. This became clear during my car's last visit to North Scottsdale. Here's the back story:

    Back in June the car notified an "engine malfunction" so I took the car in to get checked out. My service advisor called and let me know that there was a def sensor hose on the back of the engine that had cracked and needed to be replaced. He also let me know that there were several of these hoses back there and since it was so much labor to get back and replace the one hose we ought to swap out all the hoses while we were in there. I agreed and authorized the repairs along with an oil change, alignment and brake service. Hoses and belts aren't covered under my extended warranty so all of these repairs were out of pocket (about $3000 total). Okay it's an 8 year old BMW with 70K miles so I'm okay spending some money on it. While testing the repairs some computer part failed which was luckily covered by the warranty (another $3000). My service advisor calls and lets me know the car is ready to pick up so I take a day off work, drive down to pick up the car and about half way home the engine malfunction light comes back on. After some conversation the dealer agreed to send up a valet with a loaner car and pick up my car. After a week or two they bring my car back up to Sedona for me. Then the car drives well for a couple months before I start having more engine malfunctions. This time the car is running really poorly so they send up a quality control driver to pick up my car and drop off another loaner. The driver doesn't get more than 2 miles from my house before the car stops running and they have to tow it down. Turns out that one of the def sensor hoses had come lose and melted the main wiring harness on the car causing it to short out. It took about 2 weeks for them to call and say the car was ready and they were going to send it up with a driver the next day. I get another call the next day saying that the engine malfunction light has come back on and would require further testing and evaluation. They keep the car another 2 weeks while they figure it out before asking me to come down and pick it up. The dealer admitted responsibility for the loose def hose and resulting wiring harness short out so they covered the cost of all those repairs and the loaner car.

    Now you can see why I'm questioning my future with this car. However, I did't feel real good about the idea of selling the car and passing all of these problems on to someone else so I called my service advisor to discuss. He said there wasn't anything he could do but I might want to contact BMW customer service to see if there was anything they could do to help. I was assigned a case manager who reviewed my extensive service and repair history at BMW North Scottsdale. He also spoke to my service advisor and called me back before referring my case to "management" for review and consideration for a buy-back. My case manager seemed to imply that given my vehicle's history and recent issues that a buy-back was a pretty sure thing. However, management declined my request for a buy-back. I asked my case manager to put me in touch with the person in management who made the decision so I could speak to them and find out why. I was told that the management team is not a "customer facing" unit and it wouldn't be possible for them to contact me. I thought it was pretty convenient that the person making the decision "can't" speak to the customer and explain why. I sent back a pretty strong rebuttal to my case manager and he came back with the same canned corporate robot speak. Case closed.

    My car is in mint condition; it's always been garaged, one owner, one driver, always maintained at the dealership it was purchased from and BMW refuses to stand behind their product. The car isn't reliable and it's no longer reasonable for me to own. I don't feel right selling to car to anyone and I don't want to trade it in for another BMW. As much as I love these cars I just can't see owning a car that can only be serviced at a dealership 2 hours from where I live anymore. The car isn't worth much; probably about $10-12K and I think the right thing is for BMW to pay me market value for the car and everyone can go on with their lives. What kind of brand image does it give when my friends and clients laugh at me when they see me in another loaner car because they know my car is broke down again? How much has it cost them to send drivers to and from Sedona to save face with a customer? How much has it cost them by me telling my story? I'm pretty let down with BMW and I want to hear what you all think and what you've gone through. Am I doing something wrong here? I'm open to constructive criticism and or comments good or bad. What should I do?

  2. #2
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    Welcome to realizing that the marketing does not even come close to reality.

    I dumped my last BMW 4 years ago for a car that has been FLAWLESS


    ​Life is too short to put up with this nonsense.

  3. #3
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    So tell me about MB. I would think they have similar issues with reliability no? Why did you get rid of your BMW?

  4. #4
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    While the quality of BMWs have their up and downs over the years, their reliability is usually not this awful. From the way you described it, your car sounds more like a Ferrari or 80's Jaguar model, both marques were notorious for their reliability issues. I don't know, maybe it was simply bad luck you ended up with a particularly problematic bimmer.
    Last edited by shogun; 12-12-2018 at 08:25 AM. Reason: unnessary quotes removed

  5. #5
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    Seems to me your trouble is the folks doing the service.
    These are machines that can be fixed, given an understanding of how they work, something your dealer's mechanics seems to lack.
    What is it they say about doing something over and over again and expecting different results?
    Out of warranty, right? Find an independent shop familiar with your model. Check with the local BMW club chapter for a recommendation.
    If you want the car bought back, I'm sure the dealer will oblige, albeit at wholesale money. Sometimes best to take your lumps and lick your wounds.
    Last edited by ross1; 12-12-2018 at 08:10 AM.

    If you can leave two black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking zone of the next, you have enough horsepower. - Mark Donohue

  6. #6
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    Firstly, BMW NA does not choose where you live. 'They' do not care. Why should they? Because you were able to finance or outright purchase one of their 2,000,000+ vehicles sold each year? Is there a Porsche or Ferrari dealership in the city you reside in? Do you think that any major car manufacturer would have handled this scenario differently?
    I worked for a good sized BMW dealership for about 8 years during the initial launch of the 335d and M57 engines. In that time I saw only one vehicle that was purchased back by BMW NA.
    They're riddled with issues. This is a known fact. Carbon deposits, aftertreatment, NOx sensors, mixers etc. are definitely all weak points in their design for this application. That being said, this information was out there from the get-go. The diesels were unloaded off the transport truck from Oxnard with a great deal of problems immediately.
    Unfortunately, even with purchasing extended coverage and jumping through all of their hoops an 8+ year old vehicle will not be purchased back. If you had sold an item at say a garage sale to someone that proceeded to use and take care of and properly maintain it but it no longer performs to their expectations, would you be willing to purchase the item back from them at market value? What if the value had increased? It is a depreciating asset. BMW Customer Care is a joke. It consists of various call centers full of people that basically attempt to defuse situations by being an ear willing to listen. They then contact the particular dealership that the service event has taken place at and put the issue back into the hands of the service manager or general manager at that location. They're not going to phone Petter Witt at home and explain your situation to him.

  7. #7
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    Well said. BMW has already stepped up to the plate by putting several extended warranties on several of the failure-prone emissions components.
    ASE and BMW Master Certified Technician

  8. #8
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    Tomcat104 I totally agree with you that I ended up a with a problematic car because if this was the norm for modern BMW's I think we would hear about it more. I just can't understand why BMW doesn't care to fix the problem or offer any support to the customer in this situation. I wouldn't think they would want me selling this car on the open market because it will just create another dissatisfied BMW owner. What are your thoughts?

  9. #9
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    Hi ross1, the North Scottsdale dealership is pretty large in scale and I would think they must have some qualified technicians in there. My understanding is that they basically hook the car up to the computer and it tells them which parts are failing and they replace those parts. I know they also have an internal technician forum where they can post more complex issues and get feedback/insights from other technicians so I would think they should be able to fix a car that's been around for 8 years, this isn't new tech. I have an extended warranty through Mercury and I'm pretty sure they won't work with independent shops.
    You think the dealer would buy the car back at wholesale cost without me purchasing a new car from them? That might be an option I'd be willing to consider. Thanks for your feedback.

  10. #10
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    e34Croak, thanks for your feedback. I don't think BMW should care about where I live but I do think they should care about their customers and stand behind their product and service. They haven't shown any signs that they care about the troubles I'm having and that's what is frustrating. IMO when you sell a premium product that turns out to be riddled with problems that your own dealers can't seem to fix you should do something about it and take care of the customer that purchased your premium product with the expectation that it would function reliably. I understand that cars break down and parts fail, I'm happy to pay for the needed repairs but when it's the same problems and they can't seem to fix the car to the point where it's reliable that's not fair to the customer. The way that BMW has treated me and this situation lacks integrity which is really disappointing and short sighted on their behalf.
    I didn't purchase the car from a garage sale so I think it's tough to make that comparison. I purchased the car new and always had it serviced at the same dealership. I'm not asking for a refund, I realize that cars depreciate and all I want is for BMW to take the car out of the marketplace so that someone else doesn't end up in my same situation or worse.
    I'm curious what you think would be the right thing for BMW to do in this situation? If I seem off base here please let me know.

  11. #11
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    Hi there White94RX, I think it's awesome that we have a master technician on here and thanks for commenting. I think it's great that BMW has extended several warranties on these parts because that saves the customer from having to pay for the repairs. My issue is with the reliability of the car. I'm okay with a part failing or issues popping up here and there but when it's repeatedly the same issues and 3-4 times per year that's not a reliable car and it's nothing I did wrong as the owner. What's really weird to me is when the dealer thinks they've fixed the problem and they tell me to come pick up the car and then the engine malfunction happens again before I even get home and in one situation before I even picked the car up.
    Do you have any insights as to why there are so many problems with these emissions components?
    I'm also curious how you think BMW should handle my situation. Thanks in advance for your insights.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhastings View Post
    So tell me about MB. I would think they have similar issues with reliability no? Why did you get rid of your BMW?
    Both Mercedes that I have owned have been flawless and 100% better than the two BMW's I owned. I will never buy BMW again. I know two other people who feel the same way.

    I got rid of my 2009 550 primarily because the transmission failed at 22K miles. BMW grudgingly replaced it under warranty (62 months) and the new transmission started acting the same way (hard downshifts, limp mode) a month later. When your wife says "why are we keeping this car?" you go car shopping.

    The laundry list of other issues is too long to repeat here, I have posted numerous times on the E60 sub forum.

    I wish you the best of luck.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhastings View Post
    Hi there White94RX, I think it's awesome that we have a master technician on here and thanks for commenting. I think it's great that BMW has extended several warranties on these parts because that saves the customer from having to pay for the repairs. My issue is with the reliability of the car. I'm okay with a part failing or issues popping up here and there but when it's repeatedly the same issues and 3-4 times per year that's not a reliable car and it's nothing I did wrong as the owner. What's really weird to me is when the dealer thinks they've fixed the problem and they tell me to come pick up the car and then the engine malfunction happens again before I even get home and in one situation before I even picked the car up.
    Do you have any insights as to why there are so many problems with these emissions components?
    I'm also curious how you think BMW should handle my situation. Thanks in advance for your insights.
    I wish I knew why there were such issues. Without all of the emissions crap slapped onto these cars, they are great and would run forever. There's definitely an issue with your servicing dealer as well. Once a car comes back more than once, the foremen and management is involved, and typically the cars (with owner authorization) are driven several hundred miles before being returned to ensure the vehicle is fixed. I don't know what parts have failed, or whether or not it's a misdiagnosis by the tech, or a separate part failing each time.

    As far as BMW helping you, I doubt there's much they're going to do for you. The car is over 8 years old now. Your best bet is to get on good terms with the service manager, as well as sales managers and/or general manager. Be as nice as possible, and explain your situation, how much money you've spent, and see if they'd be willing to help you trade into a newer model, if you desire. If you're lucky, maybe they'll give you a higher than normal trade offer. But other than that, who knows what they will do to help.

    Another question, do diesel vehicles have emissions testing in your state or county?
    ASE and BMW Master Certified Technician

  14. #14
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    On my second Z3 both purchased used, and both bought from private parties. I always try to work on my own vehicles, but at my age now and without specialized tools, I'm forced to have a BMW trained mechanic do what work I can't do. That doesn't mean I will take it to the nearest BMW dealership.......oh no. I have found better workmanship and more reasonable rates from shops of those specializing in our vehicles. Example: Bought 1st. Z in 2013, and asked the dealership about a oil change. Answer: $103.00 without blinking, and that was 5 years ago. Just my 2 cents!

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by White94RX View Post
    I wish I knew why there were such issues. Without all of the emissions crap slapped onto these cars, they are great and would run forever. There's definitely an issue with your servicing dealer as well. Once a car comes back more than once, the foremen and management is involved, and typically the cars (with owner authorization) are driven several hundred miles before being returned to ensure the vehicle is fixed. I don't know what parts have failed, or whether or not it's a misdiagnosis by the tech, or a separate part failing each time.

    As far as BMW helping you, I doubt there's much they're going to do for you. The car is over 8 years old now. Your best bet is to get on good terms with the service manager, as well as sales managers and/or general manager. Be as nice as possible, and explain your situation, how much money you've spent, and see if they'd be willing to help you trade into a newer model, if you desire. If you're lucky, maybe they'll give you a higher than normal trade offer. But other than that, who knows what they will do to help.

    Another question, do diesel vehicles have emissions testing in your state or county?
    Thanks for your response. The service manager has been involved from day one and always taken my calls on his cell phone, even text. They also always have the shop foreman drive the car home some 20 something miles each way before sending the car back to me. Maybe this is an issue with the dealer but they've always treated me really well and helped me where ever they could, they are a reputable dealer and it's hard for me to hang this on them.

    The crazy thing is that my "service engine soon" light just came back on over the holiday and I'm having to take the car back in for service. I've put less than 250 miles on the car since they returned it to me "fixed". I'll be contacting my rep at corporate again as his last words to me were to let him know if the car had to go back in for service.

    My brother works as the parts manager at a GMC/Buick dealership in Flagstaff and he says the same thing about all of the emission standard stuff and how many problems it causes people but nothing to the level of what I've had to deal with. He is surprised that BMW hasn't stepped up to buy my car back in this situation considering how little it's worth ($10K or so).

    There aren't any special emissions testing in AZ that diesel vehicles have to comply with so I wish I could just remove all of the crap causing these problems and offset my emissions with some carbon credits ; )

  16. #16
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    You can remove all the emissions crap and tune it. There are shops and tuners that do the work, or sell the parts for you to do it yourself. HOWEVER, removing emissions components is considered illegal, and shops may not advertise their service. Your best bet is to do a little research, and start learning everything you can about "deleting", as it's referred to. Maybe find a diesel performance shop in your area, and go speak with them in person.
    ASE and BMW Master Certified Technician

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