Z3 M44 to M54B30 swap wiring/DME/EWS

[Z3Bearman]

I need some insight about the best way to wire up and deal with the issue of the DME, EWS, and the key talking to each other via ISN.

The donor car I plan on getting the engine from is a 2002 E39. Should I use the wiring harness that comes from the E39, or should I try to modify the existing wiring harness in the 1997 z3. Or since the post face lift z3 came stock with a m54 should I buy that wiring harness since the routing of the wiring harness may be different from the e39 to the z3.

Since the DMEs are different from the z3 to the e39(same as post face lift z3), which one should I use? I'm assuming if I use the original wiring from the z3 I should keep the DME since the ports are the same. Or vice versa if I use the wiring harness from the e39 should I use that DME as well?

It appears as if the EWS is the same between the z3 and E39, so should I not mess with that in the Z3? Or does that need to be swapped from the e39 along with the DME and key/ignition system.

Could it be as simple as just taking the m54 engine and all the associated wiring and DME to the Z3 and getting an EWS delete? Would I need to do anything with the key? Would I need a new tune for the DME since it's in the Z3 or would the tune for the E39 work for the Z3?

Thanks!!



Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[BimmerBreaker]

You need the Z3 parts... Yes the E39 used that engine but there were a lot of differences between those platforms and the engine management as well.

You need the Z3 harness, Z3 DME and there are engine differences too like oil pan you need to address as well. You need to basically convert it to a Z3 spec M54

[Z3Bearman]

Will the wiring harness need to come from a m54 z3 or could it come from a M52 model?

For the DME are you saying that I need to find one that came out of a m54 z3? When I search the internet I see a lot of DMEs for sale claiming to fit all these models. Is there any way I could use the e39 DME I already have and reprogram it and tune it for a z3?

When on Ebay there are bundles that have the EWS DME and key/ignition. Could I do the same concept and get my 'bundle' from the e39?

It makes sense to me about getting the wiring harness from a m54 z3 because the e39 has a different chassis but I feel like the DME wouldnt need to be from a z3 m54 because they are the same physical unit but with different controls. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the whole dme/ews/key thing so excuse me for asking questions.


Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[328 Power 04]

Please don't use ebay as your source if it fits or not.

You would need the e39 dme to be flashed to Z3 for z3 management. Ex: e39 uses a dme controlled fan, while z3 uses the old style e36 temp relay. So many more differences. You should be using a Z3 harness, as there are differences. Even your cluster will have loads of issues.

No you should not transplant an ews3 into your car, nor change the keys. The Z3 flashed dme should be ews deleted to save you all the headaches. I do this kind of flashing and custom stuff all the time, and you will save yourself so many headaches by doing it right from the very beginning.

The 4-cyl z3 is not an ideal base car to do it on, but through some hard work, it's possible.

[Z3Bearman]

Yeah I know ebay is not a very reliable source for part referencing. I have been using realoem as well and the part appeared to be the same.

Would you be able to help walk me through the process of flashing the z3 management to the e39 dme and ews deleting it? I could pay you for your time obviously.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[Z3Bearman]

You need the Z3 parts... Yes the E39 used that engine but there were a lot of differences between those platforms and the engine management as well.

You need the Z3 harness, Z3 DME and there are engine differences too like oil pan you need to address as well. You need to basically convert it to a Z3 spec M54

I see that there are differences in the oil pans for the m54 z3 and the e39, but what would the effects be of using the oil pan for the e39? Is it something regarding the physical differences or electrical?

Thanks!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[328 Power 04]

I can help, but you have a lot of work to wire it in correctly, and get the systems to work. I saw your other thread in the diag subforum. You cannot ever sync the ews to your current one. Best option is to have it ews deleted.

DME will require custom settings changes or else you will be limited to 5200rpm because of your Z3 not having a dsc module. DSC module tells the dme the vehicle speed over canbus. When that is missing, it goes into a type of limp mode. One example of many.

What do you intend to do for the cluster? The MS43 dme talks through canbus to a lot of systems, while your Z3 hardly.

[Z3Bearman]

I recently found out a simple way to delete the ews and also tune the ECU. I would be able to control the engine limiter with that I think.

I also found a data logger that should be able to collect information through the OBD port. Was that what you were referring to? Or the physical cluster in the car would not be able to link to the MS43 dme?

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[geargrinder]

Oh. Now I see.

These guys answered your questions already days ago but you didn't like the answers

Graham ignore the PM I just sent didn't realize you'd already been in on the discussion.

Dude sounds like 328 Power has the whole sitch "wired" so to speak.

[Z3Bearman]

It seems like people are getting offended and that is by no means what I am trying to do! It's not that I didn't like their answers, it is just that I didn't completely understand them. As I assume you all know this is pretty complex stuff and like you already know Geargrinder I am a bit naive. To put things into perspective I was in 1st grade when 328Power04 joined this forum, so yeah I'm sorry if I am asking stupid questions or annoying you guys I'm new to this stuff. That was not my intentions at all and if I came across that way I will try and reword my responses! I am a mechanical engineering student at a Uni so I am pretty confident with that aspect but not so much on the electrical/control side of things. Id love to have 328Power04 help me but I didn't get any response. Maybe I should of waited longer to get a reply because I am sure he is busy!

Back to the thread topic!

To combine the last bit of information Geargrinder so graciously provided in the thread I posted in the wrong forum Ill paste it here.

Tons of info out there on WinKFP. It was an in house bmw software used by factory developers engineers and QC etc to flash DME’s and AGS/EGS (TCUs) with new software. You can find it, and the data files to support it, lots of places. By data files I mean the factory tunes. It’s all out there.

Yeah re: the MS43 wiki versions blah blah. Ok. You’re reading those threads and sites which are written 99% for and by E46 dudes. While it is entirely right that you would want to be on the “main public supported version of the code” were we talking any E46 type swap, you actually have a bunch of other stuff to sort out.

The questions to answer are....
1. is there a Z3 3.0 flash that matches the public mapping - if so great. Ideal. BTW that doesn't mean same as the public bin it just means shares the mapping layout of the public bin.
...if not...
2. (already said this) Which is which is less hassle and shorter route to a working car:
- flash one of the Z3 factory M54B30 tune, even if not all the maps for tunerpro XDF match up, so when you want to tweak some other crap you have to go figure it out....
Or...
- flash the E46 MS43 wiki version and pray you can find and figure out the fields and edits to make it work for your Z3.

Now if some E36/7 + MS43 pro says that the base E46 software (that “version 56” that the public domain stuff uses although that number’s an oversimplification) works fine on your platform then great. I’d just advise caution and skepticism. Prett sure the E46 ABS modules aren’t same as the E36 derived stuff you’ll have for instance.

Frankly somebody might have the answer and may have done this swap but short of that right now I’d bet on the Z3 flash option. WTF do you think you need the XDF tuning for anyway... getting the car running well and properly quickly, and THEN sort out some other tweaks later if you have to, is way better than “derp derp my car don’t run right but I have the hex address of the field to edit the cold start idle fuel enrichment derpderp!!”

If it was my own project I'd prob check the program versions and compare the binaries see if theres a chance that any of the Z3 3.0 versions match up to the E46 program that's mapped. If so then you're asking me good shape but figuring that out from first principles will be a bit of PITA and require combing through data files and binaries probably. Don't ask me how to do that, I'd prob try several things but it'd mostly be a bunch of work reading hex and trying to find version codes in the flash files and stuff as well as some binary compares of the versions to see if both seem to have the same kind of data mapped in same locations.

FWIW I’ve worked w the MS43wiki stuff a couple times including an M52TUB28 block into M54B25 car swap - and it seems to mostly work.

Re: file sizes - different hardware ECUs have different full and partial flash sizes. So your M44 prob has a bitty 32k partial. Has to do with size of the flash chip on the board.. Partial flashes are totally incompatible across hardware and even same hardware (size) but different SW versions. That's what all the version crap is about.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and re wiring harness. Again. Can't say. Really it's an E36/7 expert question. Hopefully the engine harness would be most of it but maybe you need some other bits like the wires into the accelerator pot. Maybe the old car body harness is missing a few things you need to handwire. I dunno.

I'm going to attempt to summarize all the information I have gathered from you guys to see if I am on the right page.

To start off:

Wiring Harness:
I am going to purchase the Z3.0 engine harness as well as the transmission harness. However, from some digging around it appears that the E39 ignition harness is the same as the Z3.0 even though realoem says that they have different part numbers. Can anyone verify this?

Does anyone know if there are additional wiring harnesses I need? Or would it be as tedious as looking at realoem and literally comparing every little bit of wiring between the z3 and the z3.0?

I am not a wiring expert but I feel confident enough to read wiring diagrams and route any additional wiring that may need to be done. I did have a summer job wiring up trailers but those are pretty simple LOL.

DME:

Seems like there are a few different ways to skin this beast. However, I am looking for the simplest cost effective solution(Broke college student). So far that appears to be flashing a factory Z3 M54B30 tune with EWS delete onto the MS43 DME out of the E39. From what it seems like and what GearGrinder said 328Power04 is the man for this type of job. 328Power04 could you tell me what you need from me?

Other option if I understand GearGrinders last post is to find a z3.0 flash that works with the current XDF file that is available for the MS430056 and TunerPro that is on the MS43Wiki. Is that what you meant by a flash that matches the public mapping? By the public bin are you referring to the 512kb full flash that is offered on the MS43Wiki?

GearGrinder you are completely right, I do not need the tuning aspect of it right now as that adds more complexity to an already overwhelming project (Overwhelming in a good way not something I cant handle). But down the road I am planning on using FI so I would really like to be able to tune my own engine for the turbo set up. I have some experience doing calibration on my Uni's formula SAE car but was really hoping to get a lot more involved with it so i could use it for my own personal projects.

Comparing binaries:
Yeah that sounds like a PITA and similar to debugging an output file for FEA software. I do not feel very confident doing that and won't even ask you questions on how to do that unless I do a lot more research so I can come back with educated questions with some thought behind them. I don't want you guys to be doing all the grunt work, thats for me to do!

File Sizes:

Ahh that makes total sense GearGrinder, thank you!

Cluster:

I am still a little bit confused regarding the cluster question 328Power04. Could I just purchase a cluster from a Z3.0 and it be plug and play?

Throttle:

I plan on purchasing an accelerator potentiometer from a Z3.0 and using that instead of the z3 cable set up. Does the engine harness wire directly to this or do I need to purchase additional wiring harnesses?

Oil Pan:

Can someone tell me why the oil pan off the E39 won't work?

Exhaust System:

Does anyone know if the exhaust manifolds off the e39 will work for my Z3.0 swap? I know that the rest of the exhaust will not work for the Z3 as they are going to be different sizes. With a little bit of wishful thinking could I Frankenstein the manifolds off the e39 to the rest of the exhaust in the Z3?

My other option I am looking at is buying some cheap ebay headers but I am concerned with fitment. They say they fit model cars that doesn't agree with realoem. For example ebay says fit e46 323i and the z3.0 but not e46 325i. Realoem says that the z3.0 and the e46 325i have the same manifolds. I know what you are going to say 328Power04 don't go off what ebay says! Which I am not, I am just trying to decide if these are a viable option or not.

If so, would these be a direct bolt up to my current Z3 exhaust? I think not because there are two flanges off the headers and my current exhaust only has one I believe. I think this could be fixed with some chopping, welding and a merge collector (Not totally confident in my welding abilities of thin metals)?

The mounting appears to be different for the exhaust but if I do need to put a custom or OEM Z3.0 exhaust on the mounting should be relatively straight forward.

Intake Manifold:

I am assuming the intake manifold should be able to be used from the e39, correct me if im wrong (prolly am).

Radiator:

Would either the current Z3 radiator work for this swap or the radiator out of the E39(slight modifications are okay)? What about the coolant routing hoses?

Should I buy a Z3.0 radiator and associated hoses?

Driveline (Manual):

I plan on using the ZF trans that is in the E39 because it is beefier and will mount up to the same location as the getrag that is currently in the car. Im assuming since the ZF trans is very similar to the Getrag minus the internals I will be able to use the current drive shaft and half shafts/drive cups. However, realoem says the driveshafts have different part numbers though. Appears that one is 1294 mm on the z3 and 1244 mm on the Z3.0, why is this? Does this mean I will need a new drive shaft?? Or can I modify it?

Hydro Steering:

Appears all models have different hydro steering systems. Can I just use the current Z3 set up even if I have to route the lines differently or buy new hoses?

Shifting Mechanism(manual):

Appears to be slightly different from the Z3 to the Z3.0 based on part numbers from realoem. However, I can't imagine it needing to be modified or a Z3.0 needing to be purchased. Correct me if I am wrong

Aux systems:

I plan on using all the aux systems off the e39 such as the ac compressor, starter, water pump etc. This should be fine right? Correct me if Im wrong please!

Engine/ Trans Mount Brackets:

I plan on using the trans mount brackets that are currently on the Z3 because I believe they are the same as the Z3.0.

I am going to buy the engine mount brackets from the Z3.0.

Emission Control/Air Pump:

I see that the emission control-Air Pump is different between all of the cars. Since that is mostly an emission thing and I don't need to have my car tested for emissions is that even something necessary for the car or can I completely remove it?

Fuel Pump:

Appears to be the same on the Z3 and the Z3.0 so I will just use the current setup.

Fuel Pipes:

Again different across all models, can I just leave the current setup in place?

Fuel Filter:

I see on realoem that the fuel filter is different as well. Is this something that needs to be address or will the current fuel filter work okay.

Fuel tank Breather Valve:

The Z3.0 shares the same set up for the fuel tank breather valve as the E39 so i plan on using the E39 set up. Correct me if Im wrong.

MAF Sensor:

Plan on using the MAF out of the E39 as it appears to be the same as the Z3.0.

Throttle Actuator:

Plan on using throttle actuator from E39 as it is the same as the Z3.0.

Air Intake:

All models of the car have different air intake set ups. I was planning on removing the big air filter box and using something like an aftermarket KN air filter or air intake system.

Fuel Tank:

I would assume that the fuel tank for the z3 and the Z3.0 are the same but realoem says they have different part numbers. I am really hoping I can just use the fuel tank on the current Z3 and dont need to purchase one from a Z3.0. Any advice?

Carbon Filter/Fuel Vent:

Appear to be different for all models. Can I just remove the carbon filter if I do not care about emissions?

Can I just leave the current fuel vent system set up in the Z3?



Miscellaneous other things:

As 328Power04 mentioned there are numerous other things such as the DSC that could give me complications. I am not familiar enough with the cars to know if there is anything else. Does anyone know of other differences between the Z3 and the Z3.0 that need to be addressed or better yet where a good reference to figure these things out on my own.

What are possible remedies for these issues? Simple changes to the DME or physical changes or am I stuck with having to buy every single part of the Z3.0 that is different from the 1.9 Z3.(Again I am a bit naive and do not even know all the subtle differences, but you need to start somewhere right?)



The reason why I am advocating to use so many of the E39 parts is to save money and deal with less headaches dealing with selling parts on the E39 and buying Z3.0 parts. I am sure this list isn't exhausted and any input would greatly be appreciated as I am only a newb and would prefer not to take my cars apart for them to be useless paper weights.

By no means does the car have to be full Z3.0 spec, I honestly only had swapping the engine and driveline out in mind when I started it all but it seems to be a growing project. If there are ways I am able to use my current Z3 parts or ones of the E39 and retrofit them onto the Z3 I am so down for that!!

Calling all experts to weigh in on this!!


Thanks!

Ps I wouldnt be opposed to gutting out all the things that arent necessary to make it drive and bringing the car down to the bare bones if that would be simpler. This is by no means a daily, I got the car to be a fun project car that I could bring to the track as well. If I have to take things off the car that are too much of a PITA to deal with then so be it!

Can't wait for you guys to give me some awesome advice!