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Thread: X1 Timing off for over 10 months, permanent damage??

  1. #1
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    Ignorance is not bliss...advice needed for x1 Drive28i

    Hoping for some objective advice to determine if my 2017 x1BMW is okay at this point. I took my car in for its first scheduled oil change at the Seattle dealership and one day later it showed a minimum oil level alert. Took it into the dealership and they topped off the oil. Drove it approx. 3 hours that day with freeway driving. Next morning there was oil mixed with water (from the rain on the car) everywhere. BMW came out and towed the car. They thoroughly examined the car and tightened the oil cap, cleaned underneath, addressed the damage from the oil stains in the garage, and provided nice new floor mats. I was very satisfied with the outcome and thought my problems were over. Unfortunately, since that time, I have detected a burning smell coming from the right front of the car. I took the car back into the dealership and requested that their top mechanic take a look. They said they could not find anything and sent me on my way.

    Not knowing what else to do, I started reading the car manual from cover to cover to try to understand the systems in my car. During this time, I read in the manual that a flatbed tow truck should be used to tow the car. My car was towed by a regular tow truck with the front wheels in the air and the rear wheels on a dolly. I assumed that I had discovered the problem – something had gotten damaged from the towing and was causing the burning smell. I escalated this with BMW and they felt that the towing was fine because the rear wheels were on a dolly. To solve our differences, I took my car to an independent BMW mechanic. He confirmed that BMW was correct and that the burning smell was not from the towing. He ran diagnostics with a code being identified for improper timing. The mechanic felt that the oil issue caused the engine to heat up to the point that it triggered the timing issue and that the burning smell was actually from the catalytic converter. Unfortunately, from the time of the initial oil issue until the independent mechanic discovered the problem, ten months elapsed with me putting approx. 10,000 miles on my car. I need to take my car back in to BMW and get this fixed but I know absolutely nothing about cars so I am totally at their mercy. I am very concerned that permanent damage may have occurred and I am worried that down the road, I am going to get stuck with additional problems and costly repairs. How likely is permanent damage? What systems/parts could have been affected by this? Are there specific diagnostics that I should insist that they run? Any parts that should be removed and examined for defects?

    Anything else that I should ask the mechanics who will be working on my car? I do not want the outcome to end up like the last time. In advance, thank you for your input

  2. #2
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    Contact the Customer Relations folks at BMW NA immediately. Be nice, but be persistent. Make sure you have all documentation in front of you. Rehearse what you’re going to say. Be advised that BMW NA can exert only so much “pressure” on the dealer as the dealer is an independent franchised business.

    I am surprised that the dealer tech didn’t hook the car up to the computer immediately. Yes, a thorough visual inspection and a check to make sure all caps and covers are on tight are required. But, the dealer tech should have then hooked up the computer to your car. That computer reads all the car’s computer modules data (not just fault codes), sends the data to a computer in Munich, and gets the steps to be followed.

  3. #3
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    Thank you Marco. Appreciate your input. Actually, I reached out to BMW NA back when I thought it was a towing issue so they are in the loop. Not sure how the Seattle BMW dealer tech missed this when I complained of the burning smell. When I brought the car to the independent BMW mechanic, he found the issue pretty quickly. Given that I have been driving the car for over 10 months and 10,000 miles with a timing issue and burning smell, do you think that the computer will be able to detect if there is any permanent damage to the car and/or parts that need to be replaced? I did some googling and I am worried...https://www.yourmechanic.com/article...e-timing-works See excerpt below.

    Is the X1 an interference engine? As far as severity, when I start the car, a little icon of an engine displays but I have not noticed a "check engine" warning. However, the engine will cut out repeatedly and when I start it back up and go from Park to Drive, I get a transmission message not a check engine error message.

    Different types of timing

    There are two kinds of timing, cam timing and ignition timing. The cam timing regulates the valves and pistons, and the whole process is controlled by the timing chain or belt. If the timing is off, damage can occur. In some engines, called “interference engines,” the consequences can be especially bad. With this type of engine, the engine valves and pistons actually occupy the same space in the cylinder, but at different times. Since the intervals between the time when the piston owns the space, and the time when the valve owns the space is far less than a second, you can probably imagine the consequences if the timing is off. You could end up having to have your engine rebuilt, or even replaced.
    Last edited by Grace Y; 12-01-2018 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #4
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    Almost all modern BMW engines are interference engines. The”check engine” light is on only when there’s an emissions related code present.

  5. #5
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    X1 Timing off for over 10 months, permanent damage??

    This is a spawn off of a thread that I started on the BMW Models Series 1 & 2 forum (Ignorance is not bliss, Advice Needed). Due to a series of unfortunate events sadly chronicled in my previous thread, I have been driving my 2017 X1 28i with the timing being off for over ten months and well over 10,000 miles. Although I love driving my car, I do not know much about cars in general.Thanks to input from one of the forum members on my previous post, sounds like data from my car can be sent to Munich to inform the mechanic on how to fix my car, but my main question to those of you who are BMW mechanics and/or mechanical engineers is will the computer be able to detect if serious engine damage occurred and all of the related systems? I am especially concerned because I now know that my car is an interference engine which is actually not a good thing when it comes to timing issues. When I drive it, I am not getting warnings displayed. The only signs of an issue are an intermittent burning smell from the right front side of the car and it cuts out- especially on cold starts and now we have found the timing fault code. In advance, thank you for your help!

  6. #6
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    Hmm...not good news but good to know. Thanks Marco. Just realized that I probably posted this in the wrong spot :| Started a new thread in the General BMW Mechanical Help.

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    How did you become aware that your timing is off

  8. #8
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    For background info on the history of the issue, this is from my original post...(https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...7#post30156587 )

    "I took my car in for its first scheduled oil change at the Seattle dealership and one day later it showed a minimum oil level alert. Took it into the dealership and they topped off the oil. Drove it approx. 3 hours that day with freeway driving. Next morning there was oil mixed with water (from the rain on the car) everywhere. BMW came out and towed the car. They thoroughly examined the car and tightened the oil cap, cleaned underneath, addressed the damage from the oil stains in the garage, and provided nice new floor mats. I was very satisfied with the outcome and thought my problems were over. Unfortunately, since that time, I have detected a burning smell coming from the right front of the car. I took the car back into the dealership and requested that their top mechanic take a look. They said they could not find anything and sent me on my way.

    Not knowing what else to do, I started reading the car manual from cover to cover to try to understand the systems in my car. During this time, I read in the manual that a flatbed tow truck should be used to tow the car. My car was towed by a regular tow truck with the front wheels in the air and the rear wheels on a dolly. I assumed that I had discovered the problem – something had gotten damaged from the towing and was causing the burning smell. I escalated this with BMW and they felt that the towing was fine because the rear wheels were on a dolly. To solve our differences, I took my car to an independent BMW mechanic. He confirmed that BMW was correct and that the burning smell was not from the towing. He ran diagnostics with a code being identified for improper timing. The mechanic felt that the oil issue caused the engine to heat up to the point that it triggered the timing issue and that the burning smell was actually from the catalytic converter. Unfortunately, from the time of the initial oil issue until the independent mechanic discovered the problem, ten months elapsed with me putting approx. 10,000 miles on my car.

  9. #9
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    Hi Grace. I have to say first that I sincerely doubt your timing is incorrect. Is the "Service Engine Soon" light, or a warning light with a picture of the engine in your dashboard lit up? If not, there is absolutely no way that your timing is off.

    An oil burning smell will be an oil leak, probably the valve cover, but this isn't going to cause a major problem either. The dashboard will tell you if your oil level gets low.

    Take the car back to the dealership, and tell them again that you smell oil burning. IF the check engine light is illuminated, ask them to diagnose WHY. Your car's under warranty - you need to take it to the dealership, not an independent shop. If you tell the dealership that an indie shop worked on it, they will have a reason to claim that shop did something wrong.

    Don't bother with calling BMW NA unless and until the dealership has had several attempts to address your concerns.

    Chris Powell
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    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
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    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  11. #11
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    I agree with Chris about the timing, based on common sense. Even it was off I don't see how it could cause an oil leak.

    It sounds strange that a 2017 car would have a valve cover leak though??

    Grace, when you say "right front of the car", do you mean when facing it or when sitting in it?

    If it's the former, I'm thinking about a leaking oil filter housing gasket.
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Alan K. Simpson.
    5spd E46 "3XX": 328i engine, 330i Intake and exhaust, CAI, 323i diff.

  12. #12
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    Thanks for your input and questions Chris and Breeze1. So, the fault code that the mechanic detected is fault 151001 – ignition timing adjustment in idle, cold start ignition timing too early but there are no warning lights displayed when I am driving. The oil leak was the original problem and it was fixed when the dealer tightened the cap from the oil change. I am pretty certain that the burning smell is not from anything still leaking due to the oil issue. The dealer cleaned the car thoroughly. I inspected the undercarriage and it was spotless. As far as the burning smell, when I am driving and have the front passenger window down, there is a unique burning smell that blows back into the car. Not all the time, but a lot of time and especially when I am going uphill. Also, on occasion, when I pull the car into the garage, I can smell it in the same spot. Given all of this, when I take my car back into the dealership, is the computer that sends data back to Munich capable of figuring all of this out? Will it be able to detect if there is permanent damage? If not, what do I need to ask the dealer to do to diagnose this?

  13. #13
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    There's no computer that sends your car's info to Munich. Nor is there any need for such a thing. BMW is a WORLD manufacturer, and US sold cars are dealt with here in the USA. In fact, almost all X-series vehicles are actually manufactured in South Carolina. Spartanburg, SC is the largest BMW plant in the world, AND the largest U.S. vehicle exporter.


    The code is bad. "Ignition timing" really isn't a valid fault code, because ignition timing is entirely by computer, and entirely decided by cam/crank timing, and the DME (engine computer).

    I can promise you that if the check engine light was not illuminated, the timing wasn't incorrect.

    I'm going to assume, by your name, Grace, that you're female. And due to this, I give my sincere apologies for my expression, but: Somebody's blowing a lot of smoke up your ass.

    You need to stick with the dealership, completely, while your car is under warranty. (Note that I work for an independent shop!)

    As a customer with an extremely young BMW, under factory warranty, you need to utilize the resources of the manufacturer, and the dealership. As a tech at an indie shop, I will ALWAYS send the customer to the dealership when the car is under warranty. To do anything else is against the customer's interests. Eventually, that same customer will come back to me, when the warranty runs out, and he/she will know that I can be trusted to give an honest report.

    Chris Powell
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    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
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    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  14. #14
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    I'll let Chris or other professionnals here assess the following hypothesis, Grace:

    1) An engine running low on oil (how low, that's the question: you got an "oil at minimum level" message but after that, you did drive it, at least to take it back to the dealership) could have caused overheating of one or several cylinders, damaging in the process one or several piston rings, which could explain the oil smell. If there is even a very small oil leak due to that damage, it could send particles of oil down the exhaust, causing the burning smell. A possible way of verifying that would be to look for blue smoke coming out of the exhaust, but that would depend on how much oil the engine is loosing. If it's an infinitesimal quantity, it could not get enough time to make it all the way to the back of the car, getting vaporised along the way. But you would most likely not be able to smell it either, as it would be trapped inside the exhaust manifold (unless its own gasket is leaking). A compression test could also give an answer regarding cylinders integrity.

    2) As mentioned before by Chris, a leaking valve cover gasket, with the same overheating origin, but a much "cooler" outcome: replacing a valve cover gasket is a relatively easy job and it's nowhere as costly or cause for worry regarding the engine's health, compared to 1).

    If the leak is really minor, neither 1) nor 2) could be confirmed by checking your oil level on a regular basis. It can take a year or two for half a liter of oil to get wasted under those conditions.

    3) a relatively remote possibility: you say the oil leaked abundantly and that the dealer washed the car underneath afterwards: a little bit of oil could have been trapped in a cavity located on the upper side of the engine and is getting progressively evaporated by the engine's heat as you drive your car. It's a remote possibility because the oil would most likely evaporate relatively quickly (heat+wind), but I don't see that as something totally impossible.

    If you were to forget for a minute that this issue occured, how would you say the engine feels, as far as startup, idling, acceleration? Does it feel healthy, or "weird"? Does it sound normal, or do you hear a knocking sound or any other strange noises?

    I don't see how the catalytic converter is related to any of this. My limited knowledge tells me that an excess of oxygen can cause a cat to overheat, not an excess of oil. I don't see the timing code as being related to this either (see Chris's explanation above).
    Last edited by Breeze1; 12-03-2018 at 09:20 AM.
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Alan K. Simpson.
    5spd E46 "3XX": 328i engine, 330i Intake and exhaust, CAI, 323i diff.

  15. #15
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    Thanks again. No offense taken on the female thing Chris. That is why I am here trying to gather as much info as possible to become educated on this issue. Definitely a lot to consider. Regarding your question Breeze1 - upon startup the engine runs very rough and then a lot of time it cuts out completely. When I then put my foot on the brake, put the car in Park, restart the car and put the car in Drive, I do not get a engine warning error but oddly a transmission message that the car could roll.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace Y View Post
    Thanks again. No offense taken on the female thing Chris. That is why I am here trying to gather as much info as possible to become educated on this issue. Definitely a lot to consider. Regarding your question Breeze1 - upon startup the engine runs very rough and then a lot of time it cuts out completely. When I then put my foot on the brake, put the car in Park, restart the car and put the car in Drive, I do not get a engine warning error but oddly a transmission message that the car could roll.
    Youre welcome. The roughness seems consistent with the ignition messages the tech found. The message you get when putting car in D sounds logic to me when compared to any auto I have ever driven (because yeah, it could roll when in D, if you lift your foot from the brake) but since your car is new it could have some safety feature that prevents it from rolling when in D unless pressing the gas pedal, I don't know (I guess if you mention it, it means you didn't get it before?).

    Still, none of this sounds related to the oil smell.
    "If you have integrity, nothing else matters. If you don't have integrity, nothing else matters." Alan K. Simpson.
    5spd E46 "3XX": 328i engine, 330i Intake and exhaust, CAI, 323i diff.

  17. #17
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    A timing error will cause an immediate check engine light.

    In your best interest, you absolutely need to let the dealership take care of your car while it is under warranty.

    Be nice to them, but certainly be firm in explaining what you're experiencing. Don't give them bad marks on the little score cards they send you. Trust me on this.

    Keep taking the car back, when you feel the problem is unresolved, because this is what makes your claims as an unhappy customer verifiable, if and when you might have to go to BMW NA to ask for help.

    Don't tell the dealership that you heard any of this "at a forum". Tell them instead that your brother/father/uncle is a BMW dealer tech, on the east coast, and told you to ask them to find the problem for you. The computers in your car will store trouble codes for poor running issues, but not oil leak issues.. Again, though: "Ignition timing" is not a code I've seen on ANY BMW, ever....because the computer sets ignition timing according to cam/crank timing.

    We'll be here for you, so please share what you're told, so we can help you arrive at a good resolution.

    How many miles are on your car?

    Chris Powell
    Racer and Instructor since, well. decades, ok?
    Master Auto Tech, owner of German Motors of Aberdeen
    BMWCCA 274412
    German Motors is hiring ! https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...1#post30831471

  18. #18
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    Thanks again to all. The car goes in today to the dealer. I assume that they will have it for a couple of days. Chris, I think I am around 17k on mileage.

    Any last minute thoughts - parts that should be inspected or anything else??

  19. #19
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    Just wanted to give a quick update. BMW Seattle still needs to diagnose one more issue, but so far the car needs a new turbo and new spark plug. I am reaching out directly to BMW NA.

    BTW - I took a look at the original print out from the independent BMW mechanic to verify - "fault 151001 ignition timing adjustment in idle too early after cold start stored in DME". He insists that he did not clear the code. However, at this point, it is irrelevant because the Seattle BMW dealership said that they performed a fault survey and found no faults stored.

    Will keep you posted as I learn more.

  20. #20
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    Ignition timing doesn't necessarily have anything to do with mechanical timing, since the car has electronic ignition.
    -Abel

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  21. #21
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    Well, things are dragging on The car is in a partial state of repair. I have requested that the dealer check that the onboard computer is working, but they say everything is fine. I am concerned that the onboard computer has not collected/stored data from malfunctioning parts and triggered the necessary alerts, fault codes, etc. So far they have needed to replace a fuel injector, spark plug, and the turbo and up to this point, I drove the car with it cutting out and the burning smell for approximately a year. Surely in all of that time, I should have received a check engine message or a light should have come on when the car cut out. Do any of you have any thoughts on this?

    BTW - The dealer sent me the diagnostic readout from the computer on 12/5 prior to any repairs. It is shows no faults, errors, etc. of any kind. I am wondering if some part of the computer got damaged when the engine overheated from the initial oil issue and it shorted out/damaged the interface or ???

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