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Thread: Pendulum's eventual E39 M5 Touring build

  1. #26
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    I had to go on an unexpected trip out of town for a week so I haven't got as much done as I'd like but I did get a little work done on the touring the past couple days. I have until Monday to get it road worthy to get it undercoated and on Tuesday I have the safety inspection.

    One of the hoses for the CCV was broken so I got to replacing that. It was wrapped in electrical tape since I got it and while it worked it wouldn't pass a safety.



    I found that the entire driver side of the engine bay is covered in oil. probably from the power steering lines or the oil filter housing. As long as it's not a major leak that forms drops I should be ok for now.



    Had to break the hose to get it out but it finally came out. I found out when I went to install the new one that the old one was installed upside down. I chose not to change the entire CCV since the engine will be out in the spring.



    This piece was something I noticed before but never really understood why it was there. As it turns out, this is the only thing holding the expansion tank in place.



    The stuff inside the expansion tank doesn't look so good so a coolant flush will be coming up pretty soon since I don't want to have to replace the heater core.



    Got around to painting the sill. It's not a super good looking job but it will rust and it'll be hidden by the sill. The clear coat on the car is already starting to peel so I'll be vinyl wrapping it for fun in the spring or summer and eventually the entire car will get a respray.



    Also finished up the hatch with some primer, seam sealer then paint.



    Edit: Now back to the S62
    I took MotorMouth93's advice and got a leak down tester. Since the cams were free on Bank 1 I decided to do that first. This was cylinder 1.



    Lots of air was coming out the exhaust port so I took a look inside and noticed that the valves were open, which made no sense since the cam wasn't opening them but I found that the lifters were stuck down, probably rusted in place.



    Cylinder 2 had the same problem, but not as bad.



    I figured cylinder 3 would be good since the lifters weren't stuck down and they moved when you turned the cam and put pressure on them. The leak down test showed otherwise and you can clearly see why. I looked back at cylinders 1 and 2 and noticed the bend in those valves as well, although ever so slight.



    Cylinder 4 was the worst.



    Now that I knew the valves were bent that could only mean one thing, the valves met the pistons. Luckily it doesn't look too bad. This was cylinder 4.



    Cylinder 3


    At this point my heart sank through the floor. The valves will definitely have to be replaced, but I'm really hoping the head isn't totalled since the damage to the piston looked minimal. I spoke with a friend who has quite a bit of experience with putting together engines and he said I may be able to get away with sanding the pistons. I'm not sure what I want to do at this point in regards to that, or if it's even worth doing any more work to this engine. Depending on the extent of the damage to the head I may just buy a used complete head with valves and swap that in if it makes more sense.
    Last edited by pendulum; 12-15-2018 at 09:50 AM.

  2. #27
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    Are the bent valves on the iT or did you switch mid stream talking about the M5 engine?
    I can't recall reading about any piston damage from the valves kissing the pistons.
    I wouldn't use sandpaper on the piston tops. After you have the heads off wet the tops with some solvent and use a plastic scraper. Turpintine works pretty good to soften carbon, Amsoil PowerFoam works even better.
    Good luck.

  3. #28
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    Get a used head with valves. I think any head from any M54 or M52TU will work, although cams are different among 2.3, 2.8, 2.5,3.0, ZHP versions I think. You would want to make sure head is flat and doesn't already have valve pblms obviously. For short money maybe just buy a known-good engine. Take the head and part/ save the rest.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Are the bent valves on the iT or did you switch mid stream talking about the M5 engine?
    I can't recall reading about any piston damage from the valves kissing the pistons.
    I wouldn't use sandpaper on the piston tops. After you have the heads off wet the tops with some solvent and use a plastic scraper. Turpintine works pretty good to soften carbon, Amsoil PowerFoam works even better.
    Good luck.
    I switched to the M5 engine, I should have made that more clear.
    I didn't think there was any piston damage when I initially checked the engine, I must have missed it.
    I will definitely keep that in mind once I continue the tear down and give it a try. He was saying to just sand the rough edges on the piston reliefs if there were any.
    I appreciate the advice.



    Quote Originally Posted by effduration View Post
    Get a used head with valves. I think any head from any M54 or M52TU will work, although cams are different among 2.3, 2.8, 2.5,3.0, ZHP versions I think. You would want to make sure head is flat and doesn't already have valve pblms obviously. For short money maybe just buy a known-good engine. Take the head and part/ save the rest.

    This was on the S62, but I think I agree on getting a used head. I priced it out and just the cost of valves alone is more than a full used head minus cams.

  5. #30
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    IIRC the valves are the same on a lot of the other BMW engines.
    Look up the P/N's on RealOEM.com to verify.
    You might be able to get a head full of good valves from a non M engine for a lot less than an M5 engine.

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    I was curious so I checked (and jumped at the chance to maybe get rid of the M62 cylinder heads I have on the floor in my spare bedroom)...the S62 uses it's own unique valves that aren't found in any other engine. And of course cost 3x as much as it's M62 cousin.

    Intake Valve: 11341408015
    Exhaust Valve: 11341408016

  7. #32
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    Pendulum's eventual E39 M5 Touring build

    Only the standard valves are different parts numbers, but the stem and the valve itself are the same dimensions. If you look at the part numbers for the valves with oversized stems they are the same across the M60, M62TU and S62.

    I found a fully tested and working head, with cams and valves for $500, so considering I was looking to pay $250 just for cams and $200 for new lifters, I think I'm much better off with the used head.
    Last edited by pendulum; 12-15-2018 at 03:51 PM.

  8. #33
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    I did some more work on the S62 today. I got started on pulling off the throttle bodies so I could remove the heads. Found this lovely gem.



    All set to pull off the bank 1 head



    While there were some marks on the pistons from the valve contact it looked quite minimal. Here are the pistons from cylinder 1 to 4. The bores seem to be free of any unusual wear but I'll have to take a closer look at it again and I'll have someone with more experience come and take a look at it.






    The head actually looks good apart from the bent valves. There were no obvious signs of damage to the valve seats. The intake valves on cylinder 4 were open, no actual damage there.





    I thought about it some more and realized what probably happened. Because the timing was set so poorly on bank 1, when I tried to turn over the engine in order to remove the VANOS, following the TIS procedure, that was when the valves came in contact with the pistons. Thinking back to when I was turning the engine over there were a couple spots where it became more difficult to turn over and being inexperienced with piston to valve contact I didn't think anything of it. It makes more sense to me than if someone had tried to actually start it because I would think there would be quite a bit more damage to the pistons and the head. As I had also mentioned earlier I don't remember seeing any damage to the pistons or any of the exhaust valves when I initially pulled the engine.


    At this point I don't think it's worth pulling of the bank 2 head unless there's any signs of damage to the valves or the pistons when I look with my scope again. I'm also leaning towards ordering a complete used head and eventually installing that, after I properly clean out the bores, unless there's a reason I shouldn't or a better alternative that I've missed.

  9. #34
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    With all the carbon on bank 1 you can be sure that bank 2 is the same.
    If it were my engine I'd pull bank 2 and clean all of the carbon off the pistons and head.
    Last edited by JimLev; 12-16-2018 at 10:12 AM. Reason: typo

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    Yep. Its not hard to bend dem valves. JoeKitch did it last year on his M62 without noticing too.

    That motor is such a trainwreck with the rusty cams and the whole bit, I wouldn't rule out that some of that was pre-existing. Although if you 'felt some resistance', then that was probably it (or you were doing additional damage over what had been there before?)
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  11. #36
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    Pendulum's eventual E39 M5 Touring build

    I agree with Jim. Both sides need deep cleaning. Fill each bank up with ATF and every few hours roll the motor over an eighth and top up the cylinders. It’ll strip the carbon, clean up fine abrasions in the walls, and seep through the rings while cleaning the rings, pins, and skirts. It’s shocking how active of a detergent ATF is, while at the same time lubricating properly as you roll motor over. After you’ve spent the day or two giving each cylinder to soak, any and all carbon and buildup will fall out. Was that motor babied?
    That looks like stagnant carbon built up from lots of driving below 3k rpm.

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    Last edited by 1gr8e39; 12-16-2018 at 06:24 PM.
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    Those valves don't look that bad. Rotate the cam so the valves are open all the way and hit them with a hammer to bend them straight like an old nail. Lol...
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    With all the carbon on bank 1 you can be sure that bank 2 is the same.
    If it were my engine I'd pull bank 2 and clean all of the carbon off the pistons and head.
    When I was ordering parts, I ordered 2 sets of head bolts and both head gaskets with the thought I'd pull both banks just to inspect that everything is good. I was considering not doing it for a moment but it's definitely one of those "since I'm in there" moments.
    For the price of the parts it's quite worth the little extra time and effort to get the engine as clean as possible given all I've invested into this so far. At this point I think I may change everything that may have wear minus the piston rings, pending a leak down test on both banks once I get the new head.


    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    Yep. Its not hard to bend dem valves. JoeKitch did it last year on his M62 without noticing too.

    That motor is such a trainwreck with the rusty cams and the whole bit, I wouldn't rule out that some of that was pre-existing. Although if you 'felt some resistance', then that was probably it (or you were doing additional damage over what had been there before?)
    I'm 99% sure I felt resistance while trying to turn it over. The only other engine I've had to manually turn over was my S54 and that turned over much easier than this engine. While I initially thought it was pre-existing damage, the more I've thought about the more I can't see it having been there to begin with. There were no marks or signs of anyone touching the VANOS hub bolts, which in my mind would be the only reason to turn the engine over, unless they did the rod bearings which is highly unlikely, or they actually tried starting it in which case we'd see a lot more damage to the pistons and head. This is all speculation though as I've never gone this far in tearing an engine down, and it's a massive learning experience for me.


    Quote Originally Posted by 1gr8e39 View Post
    I agree with Jim. Both sides need deep cleaning. Fill each bank up with ATF and every few hours roll the motor over an eighth and top up the cylinders. It’ll strip the carbon, clean up fine abrasions in the walls, and seep through the rings while cleaning the rings, pins, and skirts. It’s shocking how active of a detergent ATF is, while at the same time lubricating properly as you roll motor over. After you’ve spent the day or two giving each cylinder to soak, any and all carbon and buildup will fall out. Was that motor babied?
    That looks like stagnant carbon built up from lots of driving below 3k rpm.
    Thanks for the advice, I'll give it try once I get the other head off and have some more time to work on it. I'm not sure if it was exactly babied but it was from Toronto, so I imagine there was a lot of sitting in traffic, but with 13 different owners you never really know.


    Quote Originally Posted by Santaclaus4 View Post
    Those valves don't look that bad. Rotate the cam so the valves are open all the way and hit them with a hammer to bend them straight like an old nail. Lol...
    Wouldn't it work better if I just hammer the valves from the face so they properly match up with the head? If only it were that easy!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by pendulum View Post
    Wouldn't it work better if I just hammer the valves from the face so they properly match up with the head? If only it were that easy!
    Hahaha, I actually did that one time. It was a 1974 Fiat Spyder. The guy didn't know you had to line up the timing marks when you installed a new timing belt. Result was many bent valves. I bought the car for $50. Pulled the head and hit the valves with a hammer until they looked like they seated evenly. Put the head back on with the old head gasket and the car started right up. I sold it for $300. I told the buyer what I had done to the valves and that I wouldn't trust the car for more than a block. He was still happy with the car.
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    Before the holidays I was spending many hours a day trying to get the car back together enough so that it I could drive it to get undercoated, then finish installing everything else to take it for it's safety inspection the day after.

    I glued the rear door windows back in, which was easier than I thought, although I messed up the amount of urethane on the first attempt and had to cut the urethane, clean it all and try again. At the same time I removed all the tint on the windows, which ultimately damaged the rear defroster grid, the FZV antenna and the radio antenna on the rear window.




    I found more rust in a couple spots, mainly the inner bottom lip of the hatch, the bottom of the trunk floor and the bottom right corner of the gas filler area, which looks to have been repainted already. I sprayed the inside part of the hatch with Fluid Film to prevent the rust from spreading and I'll be repainting the gas cap area.





    After the windows were done I finally tackled replacing all the front control arms and tie rods as well as the oil pan gasket. I went with eBay control arms and tie rods for $115 since I knew they'd only need to last a few months and maybe 2000 miles. I was planning on changing out the struts with KW coilovers but realized I forgot to order the washer for the front sturt mounts and didn't have a spring compressor to get it off the original mounts and I realized I didn't have enough time to get to the rear shocks that night.






    I can only assume the oil pan gasket was leaking for some time since everything on the subframe and steering rack was covered in oil.




    Taking the oil pan off was the easy part, it took me almost a couple hours to get it back on and get all the bolts to align properly. I should have looked at the TIS a little more before I tried this. You can also tell the oil change intervals weren't the best on this engine either.




    After the oil pan was back in and the control arms and tie rods were done I took it for a test drive, the first time I had driven it since last March. I found out that the ABS module I had sent for repair was giving me the same error as before, 14 Valve-relay error, so I had no ABS or traction control and it had snowed the night before, and the steering was extremely unresponsive, I thought I had adjusted the tie rods to the proper length but I was wrong. I had just stayed up for 12 hours through the night to get all this done and the car still needed lots of work. I ended up missing my appointment for the undercoating and I was exhausted. I planned on taking the car for inspection the next day, so I slept through the day, got up 6 hours later and got back to work to get the tie rods adjusted properly and try and get some more work done. I got it all ready and went to town the next day and got to my friend's shop at 3 and they had closed early that day since it was slow and I forgot to call them.




    The shop doesn't open again until tomorrow and I'm currently traveling for the next little while so I don't know when I'll be able to take it in. I also found out the front rotors were worn a few mm past the minimum, so I ordered those and new power steering hoses from the reservoir. I still have the interior back in from the rear seats forward, although I still have to reinstall all the rear hatch plastics, weld the compressor mounts and put in the trunk floor.

    For the rear plastics I had actually ordered Dunkelgrun pieces since they were much, much cheaper than the black pieces and I plan on painting all the green and original black pieces with SEM satin black collar coat so that everything matches and looks "fresh".



    Unfortunately I won't have the car back on the road until early to mid February at this point. I'd like to drive it for a little bit before I pull it apart for the engine swap, but it may just make more sense at this point to just start work on pulling the engine and getting the car ready for the swap.

  16. #41
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    I got the BEWB plate with my first car and transferred it to my 540i and now the touring. I'm surprised they never recalled that batch of plates.

    I was home for a day and got a chance to open up the used head I had ordered. As soon as I opened it I noticed that one of the studs holding the oil pipe was really bent. I was worried for a minute then found out it's a replaceable stud. The pulse disk on the exhaust cam was also bent. I'll be pulling a stud and the pulse disk from my old head. There was also some very slight rust on the cam lobes but it came off with just a shop towel and some oil.




    My biggest concern was whether all the valves were straight and would seat correctly. I didn't have time to mount in on the engine and do a proper leak down test so I flipped the head over and covered the faces of the valves in water to see if there were any leaks, and thankfully there were none.


    The only issue now is the large amounts of carbon build up on the heads and in the secondary air passages. I'm thinking it may be a good idea to fully disassemble both the bank 1 & 2 heads and get them professionally cleaned and install some new valve stem seals while I'm at it.


    While I was down in Chicago for a couple weeks I picked up my giant order from FCP I had shipped there (135 lbs of parts), along with the Eibach front and rear sway bar kit I found on Amazon for $150. I also placed another large order with FCP for all the remaining o-rings, full pcv system, and cam chain tensioners. The only things I have left to order are a new flywheel, throttle position sensors, fan and clutch, and the crank main bearings once I find out which crankshaft I have.



    Progress will be a little delayed for a while as I'm busy for the next few weeks with other projects.
    Last edited by pendulum; 10-15-2019 at 01:22 AM. Reason: fixed pictures

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    Nice progress, glad you found a cylinder head.

    If you haven't considered it already, it might be worthwhile to look into an oil pan stud conversion for the S62. I've done it on all my cars, it makes the oil pan MUCH easier to install and torque, once you get the studs lined up you can hold the pan up with one hand while you thread a couple nuts on and it can't move around and smear the sealant on the block seams all over the place.

  19. #44
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    Progress!

    You certainly can hammer / vice-clamp that trigger wheel back to flat again but as you say if you have a good one, screw it, swap it over.

    The rear hatch trim color trick ordering the discounted weirdo color was smart. That trim paint works actually pretty well and looks good. Hopefully it wont scrape off from abrasion, being in the cargo area. Maybe you want to look into prepping the plastic before shooting it to get really good adhesion. You'll have to be careful with solvents, something like acetone probably will melt the plastic, so you either need a real 'plastic pain prep' product, or, do the research to find out what solvents are really in such products (I dunno without doing some research)...
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  20. #45
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    I've been using Bulldog adhesive promoter, spray it on with my gun and then spray on your top coat.
    I was painting PVC (non car project) and had the same problem GG said, the paint would peal off. I then used Bulldog, no more peeling. I bought a quart can, you probably need much less.
    If you google Bulldog adhesive promoter, you'll get a lot of choices, one for your size project may be this one.
    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...572/10097735-p
    Last edited by JimLev; 01-16-2019 at 09:16 AM.

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    I have that same green tailgate panel in my green booger wagon. I will be painting it biege, and Bulldog is the promoter that most shops use on bumpers and plastic crap. Works great!
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  22. #47
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    I actually started using Bulldog 4-5 years ago when I was painting my M5 bumpers, they are still fine today except for a few rock chips.
    When I did the PVC I forgot that I have Bulldog in my paint cabinet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorMouth93 View Post
    Nice progress, glad you found a cylinder head.

    If you haven't considered it already, it might be worthwhile to look into an oil pan stud conversion for the S62. I've done it on all my cars, it makes the oil pan MUCH easier to install and torque, once you get the studs lined up you can hold the pan up with one hand while you thread a couple nuts on and it can't move around and smear the sealant on the block seams all over the place.
    That's a great idea, I'll have to look into the oil pan stud conversion for sure. Having done 2 pan gaskets on inline 6's still in the car I almost hope I never have to do it again. While I don't plan on having to remove the upper oil pan anytime soon I'll be kicking myself if I do have to and don't have the studs.

    What did you use for studs? I'm guessing some generic M6x1 28mm or 30mm studs?


    Quote Originally Posted by geargrinder View Post
    The rear hatch trim color trick ordering the discounted weirdo color was smart. That trim paint works actually pretty well and looks good. Hopefully it wont scrape off from abrasion, being in the cargo area. Maybe you want to look into prepping the plastic before shooting it to get really good adhesion. You'll have to be careful with solvents, something like acetone probably will melt the plastic, so you either need a real 'plastic pain prep' product, or, do the research to find out what solvents are really in such products (I dunno without doing some research)...
    Back in April, on ECS, the large black trim was $560 and I ended up paying $180 for the green trim, and it seems now the price for the trim has gone up to $740 and $260! For the massive price difference it seems to be worth the extra time and effort it takes to prep and paint the plastics myself, in my mind.

    I am slightly worried about damage to the paint but I'll see how it holds up and keep everyone updated. If it holds up well over time it'll be a really nice, cheaper alternative to having to dish out an extra $480 and I can only imagine the price will keep going up.


    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    I've been using Bulldog adhesive promoter, spray it on with my gun and then spray on your top coat.
    I was painting PVC (non car project) and had the same problem GG said, the paint would peal off. I then used Bulldog, no more peeling. I bought a quart can, you probably need much less.
    If you google Bulldog adhesive promoter, you'll get a lot of choices, one for your size project may be this one.
    https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...572/10097735-p
    Thanks for the suggestion Jim. I used SEM plastic adhesive promoter when I sprayed the headliner and pillar plastics and it seems to have worked ok but I'm not entirely happy with the finished product. I'll order some cans of Bulldog and give it a try and maybe do a comparison and durability test against the SEM on an old piece.
    Last edited by pendulum; 01-17-2019 at 05:46 AM.

  24. #49
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    I used some generic M6x35 studs/nuts on my M62, 30 and 28 would be pushing it. The 35mm studs had about 5-6mm excess after the nuts were threaded on and torqued so IMO they were about the perfect length, I wouldn't go shorter than 32. I left the rear main seal plate and front timing cover using bolts instead of studs to make servicing them easier in the future so I needed 18 studs, but if you want to do all of the holes then you'll need 28.

    This is with 35mm studs.

    Last edited by MotorMouth93; 01-17-2019 at 02:04 PM.

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    My Cars
    E46M3Cic E39.540iT E84X1
    No that’s right, you def want to leave bolts for the front bottom of timing cover.

    Honestly just doing 4 at the corners would be good enough. Lift the pan up , pin it on those, finger tighten the nuts, then do all the rest of the bolts. Would solve the sliding around issue and less work and hassle. On the other hand the big reason to go studs is often steel in aluminum where you’re now always removing steel from steel and less chance of galling or otherwise mangling the aluminum. If that’s a concern then (again except for the front) all studs has a benefit.
    2003 M3CicM6 TiAg
    2002 540iT Sport Vortech S/C 6MT LSD TiAg
    2008 Audi A3 2.0T DSG (the daily beater)
    2014 BMW X1 xDrive28i (wifemobile)

    Former:

    1985 MB Euro graymarket 300SL
    1995.5 Audi S6 Avant (utility/winter billetturbobattlewagen)


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