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Thread: Yet another E36 with idle problems...I'm stuck

  1. #1
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    Question Yet another E36 with idle problems...I'm stuck

    Hey Everyone,

    My first post here, been lurking forever. I hope I get the pics right.

    The patient is a 1996 328iC (Jan '96) 2.8L M52 156,000 Miles.

    Current issue is idle way too high, but a brief history may be instructive:
    About a month ago it was idling very rough, cleaned the MAF, no change. Cleaned the ICV, which was quite dirty, only slight improvement. Patched up ICV to intake hose while in there. Replaced MAF (from Amazon), big improvement, but didn't last long. After a few weeks rough idle returned. Did a home-brew smoke test (OP e-cig with pent-coil through brake booster line (yes I removed the MAF first)). ICV hose leaking. Got ICV 'kit' (from ECS) and replaced ICV, hose, grommet, fitting, AND intake boot. Huge improvement, except now it idles ~ 1,200 RPM when warm. When started cold it is in it's normally 'high idle', and goes up from there. Towards the end of all this I was able to get INPA/EDIABAS hooked up and working, thanks to the generosity and guidance of user 328 Power 04 (thanks!!) and his Google drive. (there might be a glitch in my setup, but that's another thread).

    I have reset the error codes and the adaptions, drove around for a week yet the cartoon-ish idle persists, and I'm getting confusing input from my diagnostics. I'm just not experienced enough to detect what's going on. Like any detective, I suspect everybody. The engine light is on, and it's throwing errors on the ICV and fuel trim. Yet the adaptions are 0. I tested the throttle position sensor, and the only odd thing maybe there is pins 1 and 2 are (according to Bently) meant to read from 1-4 ohms as throttle is opened, mine goes from 1.4 to 4. Plain old don't know if that's a thing. Likewise my lambda integrator seems off, but would expect adaptions.
    Is it possible my new ICV is bad?
    Anything I forgot to test?

    I've read dozens of posts, searched and researched, but I'm at the end of my useful knowledge.

    If there is a kind and wise soul who can point me in the right direction, I would greatly appreciate it!
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  2. #2
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    Check if your icv buzzes while they is on and car is not running. If so, its internally shot.
    I would suspect also maybe a injector o ring seal is leaking or injector itself. Also spray some aerosol cleaner around the intake and injectors to spot any intake leaks. Smoke tests can be difficult to trace very small leaks.

  3. #3
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    Do you have a modified intake? aka hot air intake? because your intake air temp sensor is reading way to high.

    Also I suggest you load test your alternator. To do that, simply turn on everything on the car, all the lights (hi beams), rear defrost, radio, fan on high. While everything is running test the voltage, you can measure it anywhere but it would be ok to do it at the B+ post at the passenger side strut tower. At idle INPA is reading below 14V it should be over 14V when running.

    I had leaking injectors and it didn't raise the idle, but you should definitely run a bottle of injector cleaner 2x a year.
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  4. #4
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    Your TPS is probably fine.

    With the car fully warmed up, watch in INPA for the pre-cat oxygen sensors, they should be switching from 0v to 5V periodically. If they stay stuck at one end then they need to be replaced, you should do both of them, but only the pre-cat they are the important ones. Get NGK/NTK/Bosch/Denso do not get generic or wire in generic sensors.
    Last edited by Eric93se; 11-24-2018 at 08:29 PM.
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  5. #5
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    Found the main problem

    I've stopped the main suspect. Thanks spider for the practical advice. The ICV failed the buzz test, in fact once I disconnected the woodpecker relay (the one right below the intake boot, mounted to the chassis) there was total silence. Upon further inspection I noticed a stray connector down by the steering u-joint. I plugged it back in to the ICV.

    So as far as I can figure, this is what happened: Some asshole, probably drunk, snuk into my garage in the middle of the night, removed the most of the fuel delivery system, unplugged my ICV, then replaced all parts exactly as they were, and made off into the night. I's the most rational conclusion.

    OK, so many thanks, the clues were right under my nose the whole time. It's more than a little embarrassing to have my first post to the forums be an SRR (Self Reporting Retard), yet it is what it is.

    The idle is back to normal speed, though is still fluctuating a bit. The CEL is off, thankfully. INPA is still throwing codes for fuel trim limit (202, 203). I have not reset the adaptions yet, I'm not sure if that is required, as they are still reading 0.0.

    My main problem is fixed, I think at this point tomorrow I should drive for more than a few trips around the block and see if thing settle in. Unless you have a better way to proceed?

    Thanks again

  6. #6
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    I also have a m52, your air intake temp sensor reads high.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric93se View Post
    I also have a m52, your air intake temp sensor reads high.
    Cool, I only said that because in a lot of similar threads sometimes folks overlooked that fact.

    Local parts store has them,not expensive, but they look like a pain to replace, is there a way to test the sensor? Maybe with the manifold still on?

  8. #8
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    You squirt water, carb cleaner or something into the intake, see if the change on inpa is accurate.

  9. #9
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    Yes I believe the intake temp sensor is a candidate for replacement.
    It was bothering me before I did the ICV and the MAF, and now that I can think a bit about it, it doesn't make sense that air, coming in through the MAF, goes around the corner of the boot, then another like 4" to the sensor, and some how gets heated from 45F ambient to 140F sensor output. I haven't done the flow calcs, but off the cuff that would require the intake manifold to be ~1,800F.

    So the temp sensor is my next move. I think one of the reasons I shied away from doing it at the same time as everything else is that it looks like a PITA to get at. It will most likely have to wait until next weekend in any case. From the looks of the part it is a snap-in component. Not a lot info in Bently, the web, or forums.

    Does anyone have any advice, tips, tricks, to getting this thing swapped out?

  10. #10
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    You don't have to remove the intake. The connector is just below the throttle body and a couple inches to the left. The tang that you have to depress to release the sensor is on the engine side. The electrical connector is a simplest squeeze of the spring clip. If you removes the throttle body it will give you good access, just a few 10mm bolts.
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  11. #11
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    No sure about the intake air temperature sensor..
    If yours is bad, then mine is also (gives comparable temps), and also the ones shown here (35C en 48C; don't know about ambient temps though).
    Outside temperatures here are probably a lot higher (+/- 22 degrees C today, mostly all year round the same, very moderate climate). So that might be a difference..
    But I can't guarantee your IAT sensor is bad based on this one measurement.

    Perhaps you could also use INPA to see what temperatures it shows at a cold start, and then warming up, until it stabilizes at some temperature.
    Also: are you measuring at idle (more heat soak, low air volume passing through intake manifold), or during or directly after a drive. How long has the car been idling? Etc.
    If you idle long enough, also the outside temperature sensor will show too high values.

    On the other hand, replacing an old sensor, which might be giving wrong temperatures, is not such a bad idea of course. I'm just not 100% certain that's the culprit. It doesn't seem to be out of range.

    P.S. Found this interesting thread that shows that IAT heat soak definitely happens at idle, and also at slow driving (51C): https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ormal-op-range .
    Last edited by ed323i; 11-26-2018 at 06:02 PM.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  12. #12
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    Getting closer, but not quite there.

    I was able to do a bit of work on it this week. Ed you were right in that the IAT was not really a big problem, they do get warmed up sitting in there. I did however replace it, as it was cheap and available down the street at parts store. Much easier to replace than I thought, and certainly easier than the ICV. It helped a little, but the swap was worth it just to hear the hugely satisfying [SNAP!] sound it made when snapping in. A rare moment of audio satisfaction.

    So it helped a bit, but the idle variation soon returned with a vengeance. Satirically so, in gear at a stop light the car would lurch around like teenagers were in the back. I laughed, I cried. I started thinking fuel, and noticed skimming the Bently that the fuel pressure regulator is vacuum controlled. That was quite a revelation (it turns out everyone else knew about that vacuum line!)

    On my car it's mounted under the car just after the fuel panel. Sure enough when I went under there the factory hose has a very brittle foam sleeve connecting the hose to the FPR. I touched it to get a look and it fell apart. The replacement part has the same crappy material, so I didn't order one, I just used standard vacuum tubing to make a new sleeve, which fits nice and snug. That made an enormous difference! The surging is gone. The idle is still a bit uneven and high, so I suspect the other end of that hose has the same problem. The problem is I can't trace it to the other end! It's way under all that hose spaghetti going under the intake. I can't find any info about that (google, Bently, realoem, etc.)

    Does anyone know where the other end of that hose is?? I know it goes into the intake somehow, is it direct, or is there a 'T' fitting or something?

    The current plan is to get a CCV unit and it's relevant hosiery and install that if for nothing else preventative measures, plus extra vacuum insurance, and while I've got the TB off I will fix the other side of the FPR hose (saying I can find it!).

    If that doesn't clear the codes (202, 203, 227, 228) I suppose I'll move on the a fuel pressure test or something.

    Any thoughts? (and where the f**k, for Heaven's sake, is the other end of that hose?)

    Thanks Everyone.

  13. #13
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    There is no T on that line from the FPR. The three vacuum connections on the manifold are next to one another, they are located around 1" to the right of the Air intake temp sensor.

    The oil separator can be an issue when the diaphragm inside it cracks, but it does not cause a vacuum leak unless it's not making a good connection to the manifold, but there are 3 small 10mm bolts that secure it to the manifold. If the diaphragm cracks it can allow the engine to suck in more oil vapor.

    Yeah, these cars getting old there will be more electrical gremlins popping up and weird issues that even INPA cannot solve.
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  14. #14
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    Another of my old posts that might help finding the right connections on the manifold: post #27 in "Misfire when cold" thread
    It has an illustrated photo of the intake manifold.. Should help.

    Vacuum leaks are the most common cause of idle problems, so you're looking in the right spots.. Good luck!


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  15. #15
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    ed323i, thanks SO much for those posts. Extremely helpful, great pics, and an astounding similarity to what I'm going through now. I even had the same 'brainwave' you did. My plan is basically the same as yours, though using your experience and pointers.

    I haven't done anything since last post, as I have a job on now, and I've been trying to get a jump on it to reduce deadline anxiety later. Once I get that out of the way, like end of this week, I'll have some time to work on the car again.

    I found a cool import parts store in town, that I somehow didn't know about for the last two years, so I've got a new CCV, with hoses and grommet, I'll go back today for the TB gasket (which I forgot last time) and grab some 3mm vacuum line. The idea being to replace as much rubber under the manifold as possible while it's open, This will be like the 4th time, and one more is about all I can take :-) Mine is a US model, so I have an air pump, and will replace that hose as well.

    What is an EPA valve, the wider hose, as pictured in the link you sent? Is that an EU/US translation thing?

    Open question: There is a bracket that holds the ICV and the CCV in place, it also acts as a military grade hose hiding device. It seems that removing it, while being a PITA, would greatly expand access to the nipples on the intake. (don't read too much into that, exposed nipples are just better from a mechanic's view ;-) ) Should I take that off when doing all this work? I 'm tall and I have huge hands (I can palm a soccer ball np), so any extra room is a bonus. If so, what should I watch out for?

    Thanks everyone, and esp to ed323i for writing an entire guidebook about fixing poor idle conditions.

  16. #16
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    I have installed those hoses probably 50 times on my project car, the disadvantage to pulling the intake off the engine every other week. Anyway. The bracket is properly in the way. I recommend installing the small ones first then the big one. Also install them with your left hand with your palm facing up. Right hand can work too but it's a little tougher for me. Also unplug the Intake air temp sensor first to give extra room. I sometimes ziptie the small soft vacuum line to the big one and install both at the same time.
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  17. #17
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    Unhappy Finally an update, wish the news was better.

    Hey all,

    I didn't mean to leave the thread hanging, it's bad form you know . Just I landed a gig that kept me totally engaged for a couple weeks, then the holidays atc., so it's only been recently I've had a chance to do any work on the car.

    Alas, the news is not great. It's better, and has a lot of new parts, but still idles high and runs rich.

    First of all, thanks for all the suggestion and tips for the intake work.

    What I've done since:

    I got under the intake and replaced all the vacuum hoses I could find. It wasn't too terrible, except that you have to take off the alternator cooling shroud to get at the CCV, seems unnecessary but anyway. Once I got the TB off and the CCV out of the way, getting at the hoses wasn't too hard. I wound up going flashlight right, hose left hand, thanks! I put it all back together and it ran like super shite. Idling at 3k, surging, etc. Transmission going into failsafe. At least it was coding throttle pos sensor. So I replaced that, and it at least has the decency of immediately fixing that issue. I figure the TPS lost it somewhere along the way. I had tested it a few weeks ago and was within spec.

    So, cleared the codes, reset the adaptions, drove around for 20 min. and sure enough check CEL comes on, idles high. Last ditch effort: the fuel pressure regulator. Even though I fixed the hose from the intake to the FPR, the part itself could have a torn diaphragm or something. It was cheap and available locally. It would make sense too, as the lack of vacuum creates higher pressure. For good measure I got two pre-cat O2 sensors just to leave no room for doubt. FPR is underneath the car in my model (a pain), so did the fuel filter while under there. Horrible job, really. Garage was cold (like 40F),slab was like a iceberg, only two jack stands available, couldn't get the car that high up as I wanted, or as it needed. Gas leaking out of the filter, crap falling in hair, etc. I should have prepped better with proper lifting. The O2 sensors were tricky, but not nearly as hard as I thought. I rented one of those offset socket kits from local parts store, which helped a lot. With all that in place, I figured a win.

    Alas, same symptoms.

    By now I have replaced:
    MAF; Intake boot; TB gasket, all vacuum hoses to intake; ICV with all hoses; CCV with all hoses; IAT sensor; FPR; pre-cat O2 probes; TPS; and of course the fuel filter.

    I now have an appointment at a local indy shop for Monday the 7th. I've not been to this shop before but have had a couple recommendations. I've had at least one bad experience with other shops in town, and not all going back to either. They sounded sympathetic and said they'd run a diagnostic workup for about US$120. That's about the cost of a single O2 (Bosch) sensor. Hmmm, I probably should have set that up long before, I kind of got stuck in the amateur "this next part for sure" syndrome. I can be stubborn. Live and learn I suppose, or at least live and remember!

    At this point I've reached my limit on ability, software, experience, tools, heat, and patience.

    Besides, I'm dying of curiosity here! I really want to know what I missed, or didn't even think of.

    I will for sure update (in a timely manner <cough>) this thread when I get the results.

    Cheers,

  18. #18
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    Thanks for the update. After having swapped so many parts and probably eliminated vacuum leaks, I think you could consider the DME being faulty. Look at the link in my signature below for a cheap but very well tuned DME.. As a bonus you'll gain quite some torque and HP as a bonus. Choose one with the EWS-delete if you want to be able to swap the DME plug&play. Otherwise you'll need to resync it, and then you can keep the EWS enabled.

    Or, it could also be wiring issue between ICV and DME. Measure the resistance of those wires (look up the pin-outs in the Bentley manual or BMW manuals online) while you wiggle them a little and see if they show 0-1 Ohm constantly.


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

  19. #19
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    Hi Ed,

    Yes the DME is on my list of suspects. I didn't realize how affordable they were. It sounds like something I will do after I do the Satan delete I'm working on now. In the meantime I think I will go through the diag anyway, as I'm curious to get pro eyes on. Plus they have a bunch more software tools. That and, unlike, say, Spain, even digging around for ICV leads sounds wholly unappealing, especially after my last session. If it's a loose wire or bad connector to ICV, which is a distinct possibility (thanks) then hopefully they will have one lying about and throw it on for $10. This way I can also sort of check my work, too. Not that I usually have doubts, but my ego is a bit deflated just now! If it is the DME, I'll for sure go for the link your link.

    Cheers,

  20. #20
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    OK, I have a verdict.

    Alas, not as good news as I was hoping for. I took the car in for a diagnostic workup as mentioned above. "Two things going on" was the result. The first was a defective ICV. Dude even pulled it and bench tested it, and I made sure to ask about wiring etc. "It's the part for sure". I always suspected that thing, and was half way into a return with ecstuning at one point. At least they'll refund me even now, so that's cool. It came as part of their 'kit', it's made by Vemo. Don't know if they have a history of funky units, could just be bad luck. I've got a Bosch coming in the mail soon.

    The other part, Act II, was that my valve cover is cracked, causing a vacuum leak. This I did not think of, so helps justify the cost of the visit. They did a proper smoke test and it totally failed. I can't see any visible cracks, but I haven't taken the engine cover off to look yet. I did the valve cover gasket about a year ago, and as I now recall I was in areally bad mood at the end of the day/job and could well have over torqued the bolts. That or again, since I was using a torque wrench, bad luck. No OEM for that part, BMW wants US$575. Junkyard in Seattle wants $75. So that's on it's way, too.

    So I'll wait for the parts to arrive, send the bad ones back, and hit it again.

    Will keep you posted until the very end. [*Agrippa.gif*]

  21. #21
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    Cool I'm done! Conclusion and after action report.

    [don't know why my first attempt to post timed out, forgive me if this doubles up]


    Hey,
    To any and all who might still be following this thread, or those who might come across it in future, I thought I'd add a conclusion and an after action report.


    So the car is back to normal now, after replacing the ICV and the valve cover. The ICV made a huge difference right off the bat, but something was still funky. I did another home-brew smoke test and found a huge gap in the valve cover gasket. I pulled it back off, and found that the little plastic clip that holds the wiring from the pre-cat O2 sensor had fallen -->right exactly<-- in between the gasket and the head, while I was putting it on. Not really bad luck, alas maybe poor workmanship. Though, how could I have seen that ahead of time I don't know.


    In any case, once I got everything bolted on properly, reset the DME and adaptions, thing are now looking quite good. She hasn't run this well in months, new power, no surges, everything quiet. No codes either.


    So I'm now ready to move on to more exciting projects, but I thought I'd add a summation of what I could have done better, and what I did right (in case you stumble across this thread in future...).


    - I should have sought out diagnostic help sooner than I did. I kind of fell into the amateur 'this next part' syndrome early on. A good pro diagnosis, like a CPA or a lawyer, is better paid for ahead of whatever your getting into.


    - When doing home brew tests, like a smoke test, do it properly. I could have saved myself some time by exposing as many potential vacuum leaks/hose positions as possible. Believe it or not, setting your vape mod to 10++ is really effective if you can see where potential leaks might be. I missed the valve cover leak because my engine cover was still on.


    -Tune for life, not for INPA. Your, and my, software is old and funky. It might be lying. Not really lying, but so you really know how to interpret the readings?


    - Replace what is needed to solve the problem. Also called "Stay on Mission". True, most of the parts I replaced needed replacing anyway, but not all, and not in that order. If you're trying to solve a vacuum leak, or idle problem don't fix the stereo. I probably could have saved $200 on O2 sensors that didn't need to be replaced.


    - Keep in mind your labor. To contradict the previous point a little, when I removed the TB for what seemed like the 10th time, a simple cost benefit analysis said that replacing the CCV anf hoses while under there was a good value. I most likely found my small oil leak in the CCV to dipstick hose by doing this as well. CCV kit was like $25 and need to be pulled out to gain access to the vacuum hoses under the intake anyhow.


    I look at it as having done a whole bunch of preventative maintenance in the cases where a part didn't actually need replacing. I have 2 new pre-cat O2s, and a new FPR that I may not have really needed. Insurance at least.


    So thanks to all who helped me along this quest, esp @Ed323i , I tried to update as soon as I could, but my regular life kept getting in the way.


    I bought a cosmo racing CAI to celebrate, and I might go for a tuned chip now, too.

    I'll see y'all in another post!

  22. #22
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    Thanks for the great report. Happy to read that the M52 is now running great! And with the new parts it will be more reliable and perhaps won't fail on that rainy night, where it otherwise would have.

    Don't be too harsh on your self. It was a bit Murphy's law: You already replaced the ICV, and in the end the new replaced unit was also bad.. The odds of that happening are really small.
    Nothing beats a well trained, very experienced indy, though, especially if he knows how to bench test parts. So, first some bad luck, and then some very good luck.. As there are also lots of bad mechanics around alas that might have thrown lots of diagnostic hours and parts at it, raising the bill to many hundreds of dollars.

    You're welcome for the help.. I notice I'm learning a lot by helping other people :-) .


    1997 E36 BMW 323i
    (European) 275k km (171k miles), with following small mods:

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