Vanos rattle and Timing Chain Guides...or just wait?

[aazevedo]

Gents -

In January 10 months ago, I developed what I would call a vanos rattle. It always goes away after 1 or 2 seconds after start-up. I just replaced the chain guide tensioner - I figured it was simple and cheap, so I went with an OEM part and was hoping for a miracle. No such luck. I did try thicker oil, but I fear that is not a solution, only a mask.

I'm sure the 'o' rings in the vanos are shot, yet it does not tick while running after the initial second at start-up.

I worry about my timing chain guides. Is there a sure fire way to check them, or the chain tension? I've read a dozen posts about dropping the oil pan. I can do that, but only it is helpful and gives a clear view of things. What can I see if I pull the pan? If I see no plastic parts (I'm sure I won't) what does that really mean?

I've always done all my own wrenching, but I fear TCG and Vanos are above my ability in time, tools, and talent.

As a last thought, does any one know an amazing indi shop up in the Seattle, WA area? I spoke to one yesterday and got the message that the sky is falling and my car will explode if I don't get it in there for $10k - $15k worth of work this week. LOL!!! Did I just fall off the turnip truck today?

Much appreciated. Aaron

[asianvenom]

Oil filter housing housing have a check valve, make sure its holding oil in the filter housing after its been sitting over night...

[Roont]

Just do it. It is time consuming but not difficult. Rent the GAS tools and see if someone can lend you the crank holder. You probably already have a large breaker bar.

They're a good job to do after hours with no distractions.

Lay out the parts as you remove them and take photos along the way, especially of the vacuum lines.

Sent from my VS501 using Tapatalk

[georgebest]

In January 10 months ago, I developed what I would call a vanos rattle. It always goes away after 1 or 2 seconds after start-up.

I think it's the non-return valves behind your VANOS solenoids, this one: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...e/11121706921/
You just need to get the VANOS solenoids out (requires special tool) and pull out the valve behind. Quite easy job, but on the driver side you need to remove a coolant hose to access the solenoid. My guess is that your valves not holding the pressure to your VANOS units.

[740ilDuke]

Yeah, it's one of those things if you decide to do Vanos, you might as well do guides while its apart. Vanos can be removed after VC's and upper TCG covers
are off. To do guides, your one step away when you remove the lower timing chain cover. It's a big job, but if you keep it organized you can get through it. The timing kits are available to rent about anywhere, the fun part is timing the engine, helps to have a second set of hands. Full write ups on e38.org im pretty sure.

Alternatively, Im selling my 89k mile 2001 M62TU and Transmission. Guides and a lot more were done less than 2 years ago. I've set the Buy it Now at $2250 for both. So, you can sell your engine/tranny to recover some funds etc. There's been a lot of interest, 5 watchers on eBay alone and a lot of PMs. I did not do vanos, however the service runs $100 per side for Beysen (sp) rebuild. Your units could be sent off and swapped in, as an option. I replaced everything I took off when putting it back together including the alt, water pump and starter. Here's the link if interested, ends in less than 24hrs to the highest bidder. #options https://www.ebay.com/itm/89k-mile-BM...9/223217937068

Shipping would be around $300-400; I know this because I just shipped an engine from Thermal, CA to Spartanburg, SC

[acspecialists]

I would say don't sweat it. Mine has been rattling since I bought it. I pulled the valve covers to change the gaskets and was able to use a mirror to look at the guides. I saw no cracks or missing pieces. I run my car at the track and just finished a CCC with the Porsche club. Everyone kept wondering about my engine noise but the Bimmer just kept running!

[georgebest]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/89k-mile-BMW-M62TU-Engine-5HP24-Transmission-New-Chain-Guides-E38-E39/223217937068[/URL]

Shipping would be around $300-400; I know this because I just shipped an engine from Thermal, CA to Spartanburg, SC

This is a really good deal, if I havent done mine I'd have bought it.

[aazevedo]

I would say don't sweat it. Mine has been rattling since I bought it. I pulled the valve covers to change the gaskets and was able to use a mirror to look at the guides. I saw no cracks or missing pieces. I run my car at the track and just finished a CCC with the Porsche club. Everyone kept wondering about my engine noise but the Bimmer just kept running!

Thanks for the input. Are you still just up the road in Hansville?

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, it's one of those things if you decide to do Vanos, you might as well do guides while its apart. Vanos can be removed after VC's and upper TCG covers
are off. To do guides, your one step away when you remove the lower timing chain cover. It's a big job, but if you keep it organized you can get through it. The timing kits are available to rent about anywhere, the fun part is timing the engine, helps to have a second set of hands. Full write ups on e38.org im pretty sure.

Alternatively, Im selling my 89k mile 2001 M62TU and Transmission. Guides and a lot more were done less than 2 years ago. I've set the Buy it Now at $2250 for both. So, you can sell your engine/tranny to recover some funds etc. There's been a lot of interest, 5 watchers on eBay alone and a lot of PMs. I did not do vanos, however the service runs $100 per side for Beysen (sp) rebuild. Your units could be sent off and swapped in, as an option. I replaced everything I took off when putting it back together including the alt, water pump and starter. Here's the link if interested, ends in less than 24hrs to the highest bidder. #options https://www.ebay.com/itm/89k-mile-BM...9/223217937068

Shipping would be around $300-400; I know this because I just shipped an engine from Thermal, CA to Spartanburg, SC

Thanks a ton! Much appreciated. I think I'll do the vanos solenoids first and see where I end up.

[georgebest]

You will need a long 10mm bolt to pull out the old valves behind the solenoids. But check size before doing it, I'm not 100% sure if it was 10mm.

[aazevedo]

Thanks all.

Silly question - I'm ordering parts and it occurred to me that perhaps I don't need to replace my solenoids, but only the check-valves in back of them. What is the rule of thumb on these things? I have no error codes thus I assume my solenoids are operating as they should. I've read that that gasket will be rotted and need to be replaced. Is this one of those items that should just get replaced because its 17 years old, or should I wait until they fail?

[acspecialists]

Yes I am in Hansville, you must not still be in CA if you are just down the road?
I have heard a few people just using a tube of RTV for the gaskets. If you don't want to do that then yes replace every seal you touch. I would not replace the solenoids just because. First off don't throw parts it is a waste of money. Fix what needs fixing, there will be plenty to do on these cars.

[951Dreams]

FWIW, I had what I thought was either Vanos rattle or loose timing chains as well. Did EXACTLY what yours does on cold startups. In a failed attempt to fix my "James Bond smoke screen" on startup issue, I dropped my oil pan to flush out the OSV. It wasn't clogged, and I have zero timing chain guide pieces in my oil pan.

I changed the oil to fresh 0W-40 Mobil One and put a new oil filter in.... I now have ZERO VANOS rattle....

I doubt it was the oil change, I burn/leak so much oil it's constantly getting replaced anyway. 1-2 quarts a month. I honestly think it was the Oil Filter. Either replacing it fixed a check-valve issue, or the filter itself was bad. The old one was all twisted and grungy. I normally change my oil first thing when buying a new car, but since I was constantly adding oil, and the "Oil Change" indicator didn't say it was time yet, I held off. I regret it now, I'm pretty sure my filter was causing a restriction or was allowing oil to drain back into the pan.

I just mention it as a thought of something to try. It 100% fixed my start-up rattle. And a filter change is a cheap fix.

[georgebest]

Yes I am in Hansville, you must not still be in CA if you are just down the road?
I have heard a few people just using a tube of RTV for the gaskets. If you don't want to do that then yes replace every seal you touch. I would not replace the solenoids just because. First off don't throw parts it is a waste of money. Fix what needs fixing, there will be plenty to do on these cars.

Agreed, I wouldnt replace the solenoids cause they are quite expensive. Just the check valve behind them, much cheaper.

[aazevedo]

Update -

So I decided to replace the vanos solenoid check-valves. Passenger side was like 30 minutes to clear out the parts in front of it - only 5 minutes to swap out the check valve, and another 20 to put all the parts back.

My question is this - I did not tackle the driver's side as I'm not prepared to undo the upper radiator hose without some information from you folks. How does that plastic clip come off the aluminum housing at the block? How much coolant should I expect to loose (or need to catch and replace?)

Results - I have not heard a rattle since doing the passenger side check-valve. Very happy, but will certainly do the driver's side once I know a bit more about what I'm getting into.

Thanks in advance.

[georgebest]

Just catch the coolant and reuse it, probably have some distilled water ready if losing some. Timm explains best how to bleed/refill: https://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/E38_Bl...ing_System.htm
Not sure which clip you are referring to.

[Southern740iL]

Oil filter housing housing have a check valve, make sure its holding oil in the filter housing after its been sitting over night...

Per RealOEM, there is no check-valve. There is an oil pressure switch. Unless the valve is built into the housing, then that's a different case.

[asianvenom]

Per RealOEM, there is no check-valve. There is an oil pressure switch. Unless the valve is built into the housing, then that's a different case.

Its built into the housing

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[aazevedo]

Thanks all - I pulled the cap off the oil filter housing last night and the housing was bone dry. Looks like I have a failed check valve in the bottom of the housing, thus dry and noisy starts. Anyone changed this housing before? I've got one ordered, (went with BMW OEM) and I'm wondering about an o-ring kit or something for the lines that I'll have to swap from old to new housing. Any experience out there?

[aazevedo]

UPDATE....

Well over the holiday break, I did the driver's side vanos solenoid oil check valve (yes it too me some time to get the courage up to pull the radiator hose off and bleed the cooling system), as well as replaced the oil filter housing, (check valve inside) as well as the filter and 'filter cone (not sure of the real name).

I've played all the games with oil viscosity as well as replacing the timing chain tensioner spring hoping that I'd see/hear a difference in my 'vanos rattle'. Every time I thought I heard it less, I'd hear it again and be back to the drawing board.

So a week after doing all 3 check valves (both vanos solenoids and oil filter housing) I can say with 100% certainty that In my specific case, my car is dead silent on all start ups warm or cold.

Before this, I was looking at big bucks or a ton of time to rebuild the vanos myself or pay someone else.

I realize this is only the case for as long is it lasts. For now, the best lives to see another day. Sounding health and driving strong. Fingers crossed for more of the same.

[Timm]

That's great news, well done!

[georgebest]

UPDATE....

Well over the holiday break, I did the driver's side vanos solenoid oil check valve (yes it too me some time to get the courage up to pull the radiator hose off and bleed the cooling system), as well as replaced the oil filter housing, (check valve inside) as well as the filter and 'filter cone (not sure of the real name).

I've played all the games with oil viscosity as well as replacing the timing chain tensioner spring hoping that I'd see/hear a difference in my 'vanos rattle'. Every time I thought I heard it less, I'd hear it again and be back to the drawing board.

So a week after doing all 3 check valves (both vanos solenoids and oil filter housing) I can say with 100% certainty that In my specific case, my car is dead silent on all start ups warm or cold.

Before this, I was looking at big bucks or a ton of time to rebuild the vanos myself or pay someone else.

I realize this is only the case for as long is it lasts. For now, the best lives to see another day. Sounding health and driving strong. Fingers crossed for more of the same.

Congrats, good job!

[Southern740iL]

That rattle is the chain smacking into the guide until the piston tensioner expands. I checked RealOEM, there is no "check valve" in the oil filter housing unless its in the housing which you'd buy a new housing completely.

[adamman125]

I assume the "chain smacking the guide" means a new chain tensioner would solve the problem? Or does that mean some of the guides are already kaput?

[aazevedo]

That rattle is the chain smacking into the guide until the piston tensioner expands. I checked RealOEM, there is no "check valve" in the oil filter housing unless its in the housing which you'd buy a new housing completely.

That is why I first replaced the piston tensioner with a newer version with a longer spring. Regarding the oil filter housing, there is a check valve built into the base of the housing. I first confirmed that the old housing no longer held any oil by opening the cover after the car sat for a few hours - Yup, bone dry. That explained the 'dry' and noisy starts. Replaced it along with the VANOS solenoid check valves and so far so good. All quiet for all starts for 8 days so far.

[adamman125]

Just for interested parties, I replaced the tensioner, which helped a ton with the rough start (which I assume was the chain hitting the guides). However I noticed that, as the tensioner is kept taut by oil pressure, I was apparently losing pressure when the car sat for more than a day. After checking the retention valves at the bottom of the oil filter housing and making sure they were operating, I noticed that the seal (rubber o-ring) was pretty perished. I replaced it and voila! The car maintained oil pressure while sitting, meaning that the tensioner kept the chain taut and startups have been smooth ever since! Another reminder to always keep on top of routine maintenance I suppose.