A Barn Find? Almost

[SilasBR]

Hello Everyone,
Little excited here with the possibility of maybe joining this exclusive group and to make a childhood dream come true.
I have a friend that has a 1997 M3 Black with vader seats that is sitting in his garage and wants to sell.
He said the car has been sitting for about 6 years all garage kept under a cover.
He is second owner and has had the car for about 17 years now.
Used to be his daily driver and has around 130k miles.
He did rear strut tower reinforcements.
He was honest by saying that it needs rear brakes and he recommended me getting the cooling system overhauled.
Also showed me some minor scratches on the paint and a small hole on the back seats.
Other than the hole on the back seat, interior seems pretty clean overall.

I have read extensively the threads about most major issues the E36 M3’s have specially regarding roast in the chassis. There’s very little bubbling of rust on the edge of the trunk lid, there’s a little bit of rust right under the license plate near the trunk latch but other than that I did not see major rust anywhere around the car or under the car.
From looking under i did see that most likely the rear subframe needs to be replaced due to rust.

He did mention that it does run fine and no engine lights come up. Battery was dead and I couldn’t see it running.

We were initially talking around U$4000 before I had even seen the car. Now I’m not sure. I will go check it out once more since I only saw it at night.

Let me know what you all think? Should I go for it?

[propcar]

you probably gotta sink about 5k into it, to make it nice driver, more if you want it to be super factory fresh, may be worth it. for $4k, I think the price is pretty fair if the title is clean. It will be worth at least $10-13k once you've freshened it up, depending how far you go.

[SilasBR]

Hello Propcar,
I was thinking about replacing water hoses, water pump, thermostat, expansion tank.
Brakes have rust but still plenty of life if can be cleaned.
The rear subframe also might need to be replaced.

What else do you think I will need to make it a driver?

[MauiM3Mania]

A twenty year old Chicago car is a prime candidate for rust/corrosion. Look closely.

Best of luck.

[SilasBR]

A twenty year old Chicago car is a prime candidate for rust/corrosion. Look closely.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the heads up.
it does have a little bit of rust around the trunk but the body panels are clean the underside seemed clean as well.
And this car has always been garage kept by this owner so I believe it will be fine on rust but definitely I will check

[blckstrm]

Hello Propcar,
I was thinking about replacing water hoses, water pump, thermostat, expansion tank.
Brakes have rust but still plenty of life if can be cleaned.
The rear subframe also might need to be replaced.

What else do you think I will need to make it a driver?

All the rubber will very likely need to be replaced, especially because of sitting that long.

Others could add to what it would need, but off the top of my head:

Yes, all coolant hoses should be replaced. You coolant needs to be replaced anyway after sitting that long. Unless you can monitor this very closely and are able to shut it down at a moment's notice, I'd just do this immediately rather than drive it for any length of time waiting to see if it "holds up." Read up on the cooling system of this car. It's a weak point that is easily remedied with new / upgraded parts, and there is a lot that has been written about how to do it right.

I'd also do an immediate oil / tranny / diff / power steering flush to go with your coolant flush. New oil, cabin, and fuel filters.

Your vacuum lines are also likely to cause you problems from the rubber sitting unused, drying out. I'd buy several feet of vacuum hose of various sizes and replace the stuff that's within reach when you do the cooling system.

Your rubber suspension bushings, motor, and tranny mounts should all be replaced. I'd check them to see if they're already ripped (motor mounts are the easiest to check visually). If not, these would be on my "during the first year" list. It'll be OK, but not great until this stuff gets replaced. Also, check the ball joints on the front lower control arms. These are a bit expensive, but they are maintenance items I'd add unless the boots are still in good shape AND your friend did them relatively shortly before he parked the car. (You'd have to pull them anyway to do the bushing refresh, so just do it all at once). Also check your tie rods / tie rod ball joints. Those don't bad with time, but

Your axle / halfshaft CV boots are also likely to rip when you start driving it because it's sat so long. They're a bit of a pain to remove and replace, but would be cheaper than replacing them wholesale (new OEM ones are super expensive, auto store ones are utter crap - like, break in less than 6 months crap, and junkyard ones are old and have been sitting just like yours have been). I'd order the replacement boots, keep an eye on these, and replace them as soon as they rip / start leaking. Maybe they'll surprise us all and hold on for a while.

You can also expect other seals to fail: Valve cover, oil pan, rear main, transmission input and output, diff cover. If you can handle a drip they may not be terrible, but they're all far more likely (though obviously not guaranteed) to have issues because of having sat unused for so long.

It doesn't hurt wheel bearings to sit, and they should be OK at the mileage you've got, but I'd check those as well.

You'll definitely need to flush your brakes, and will probably want to replace your brake lines. You might as well go with stainless braided if you're going to do it (and don't forget the clutch line, which is part of the same hydraulic system as the brake system). You may have caliper trouble from them sitting so long. A caliper rebuild kit is fairly cheap, though it is a bit time consuming.

Check the subframe for deep vs surface rust. It may look bad, but may not be (probably isn't, honestly) a structural problem. (Mine seemed badly rusted so I replaced it, but after getting it out it really wasn't structural). If you DO have to replace it, they're relatively cheap, and you can weld in the sway bar reinforcements (which are like $15-20) much easier while it's out.

Also, the shocks were probably already gone when he parked it (unless he'd replaced them recently).

It may be surprisingly problem free, or may be death by a thousand cuts - you never know.

If you're planning to daily it, I'd get the cooling system sorted and all fluids flushed (including replacing the old rubber brake lines). More than just flushing your brakes, I'd look at rebuilding the calipers. If you're not sure if the calipers are OK, get on a long, straight, empty road and drive for a couple minutes. Downshift to slow down and pull off. If any rotor is really hot (or if there are big differences between rotors) you have a caliper sticking and they should be rebuilt. And obviously, you should replace any part of your suspension or steering that is badly worn (or the subframe if the rust has become structural).

Other than that, start driving and attack whatever comes up first. It's good to have a schedule / plan, and also good to have the flexibility to address the problems that will come up. And they'll be relatively frequent at the beginning.

As for cost, it is wildly dependent on who's doing the work.

A sub frame is $170 including the reinforcement plates, a brake caliper rebuild kit is $8, new factory rotors and pads are $350 for a complete set, you'll spend $500 redoing the cooling system (or $700 if you switch to an electric fan, which is what I'd do), and $100 for stainless brake lines. Add another $150 for all new fluids / filters.

So figure about $1500 altogether to get it "road worthy." If you paid a shop to do all that work, you'd be anywhere from double to 4X that amount.

Obviously cross-country trip-ready - and even worse, track-ready - is a lot more of the "potential problems" pro-actively replaced. But you could start driving to work and back, which would also serve to shake down the weakest links.

...


Finally, and especially if you plan on keeping this thing, I'd shop at FCP Euro. They offer a lifetime warranty for EVERYTHING. I even know people who send their brake pads back to them, and they don't even give them trouble (though please don't do this).

[realjones]

Probably should make sure it actually runs before going nuts with vacuum lines and CV boots. Even then...might want to replace the tires first if it's been sitting this whole time.

It doesn't run until it runs as far I'm concerned. Definitely get a new battery in there before any money is exchanged. If it does start up and has a clean title it is worth $4k to somebody so if you dilly dally your friend will sell it somebody else.

[blckstrm]

Probably should make sure it actually runs before going nuts with vacuum lines and CV boots. Even then...might want to replace the tires first if it's been sitting this whole time.

It doesn't run until it runs as far I'm concerned. Definitely get a new battery in there before any money is exchanged. If it does start up and has a clean title it is worth $4k to somebody so if you dilly dally your friend will sell it somebody else.

I guess I took getting a new battery, replacing the gas, and actually starting it for granted given I wouldn't buy it until that was done...

[SilasBR]

All the rubber will very likely need to be replaced, especially because of sitting that long.

Others could add to what it would need, but off the top of my head:

Yes, all coolant hoses should be replaced. You coolant needs to be replaced anyway after sitting that long. Unless you can monitor this very closely and are able to shut it down at a moment's notice, I'd just do this immediately rather than drive it for any length of time waiting to see if it "holds up." Read up on the cooling system of this car. It's a weak point that is easily remedied with new / upgraded parts, and there is a lot that has been written about how to do it right.

I'd also do an immediate oil / tranny / diff / power steering flush to go with your coolant flush. New oil, cabin, and fuel filters.

Your vacuum lines are also likely to cause you problems from the rubber sitting unused, drying out. I'd buy several feet of vacuum hose of various sizes and replace the stuff that's within reach when you do the cooling system.

Your rubber suspension bushings, motor, and tranny mounts should all be replaced. I'd check them to see if they're already ripped (motor mounts are the easiest to check visually). If not, these would be on my "during the first year" list. It'll be OK, but not great until this stuff gets replaced. Also, check the ball joints on the front lower control arms. These are a bit expensive, but they are maintenance items I'd add unless the boots are still in good shape AND your friend did them relatively shortly before he parked the car. (You'd have to pull them anyway to do the bushing refresh, so just do it all at once). Also check your tie rods / tie rod ball joints. Those don't bad with time, but

Your axle / halfshaft CV boots are also likely to rip when you start driving it because it's sat so long. They're a bit of a pain to remove and replace, but would be cheaper than replacing them wholesale (new OEM ones are super expensive, auto store ones are utter crap - like, break in less than 6 months crap, and junkyard ones are old and have been sitting just like yours have been). I'd order the replacement boots, keep an eye on these, and replace them as soon as they rip / start leaking. Maybe they'll surprise us all and hold on for a while.

You can also expect other seals to fail: Valve cover, oil pan, rear main, transmission input and output, diff cover. If you can handle a drip they may not be terrible, but they're all far more likely (though obviously not guaranteed) to have issues because of having sat unused for so long.

It doesn't hurt wheel bearings to sit, and they should be OK at the mileage you've got, but I'd check those as well.

You'll definitely need to flush your brakes, and will probably want to replace your brake lines. You might as well go with stainless braided if you're going to do it (and don't forget the clutch line, which is part of the same hydraulic system as the brake system). You may have caliper trouble from them sitting so long. A caliper rebuild kit is fairly cheap, though it is a bit time consuming.

Check the subframe for deep vs surface rust. It may look bad, but may not be (probably isn't, honestly) a structural problem. (Mine seemed badly rusted so I replaced it, but after getting it out it really wasn't structural). If you DO have to replace it, they're relatively cheap, and you can weld in the sway bar reinforcements (which are like $15-20) much easier while it's out.

Also, the shocks were probably already gone when he parked it (unless he'd replaced them recently).

It may be surprisingly problem free, or may be death by a thousand cuts - you never know.

If you're planning to daily it, I'd get the cooling system sorted and all fluids flushed (including replacing the old rubber brake lines). More than just flushing your brakes, I'd look at rebuilding the calipers. If you're not sure if the calipers are OK, get on a long, straight, empty road and drive for a couple minutes. Downshift to slow down and pull off. If any rotor is really hot (or if there are big differences between rotors) you have a caliper sticking and they should be rebuilt. And obviously, you should replace any part of your suspension or steering that is badly worn (or the subframe if the rust has become structural).

Other than that, start driving and attack whatever comes up first. It's good to have a schedule / plan, and also good to have the flexibility to address the problems that will come up. And they'll be relatively frequent at the beginning.

As for cost, it is wildly dependent on who's doing the work.

A sub frame is $170 including the reinforcement plates, a brake caliper rebuild kit is $8, new factory rotors and pads are $350 for a complete set, you'll spend $500 redoing the cooling system (or $700 if you switch to an electric fan, which is what I'd do), and $100 for stainless brake lines. Add another $150 for all new fluids / filters.

So figure about $1500 altogether to get it "road worthy." If you paid a shop to do all that work, you'd be anywhere from double to 4X that amount.

Obviously cross-country trip-ready - and even worse, track-ready - is a lot more of the "potential problems" pro-actively replaced. But you could start driving to work and back, which would also serve to shake down the weakest links.

...


Finally, and especially if you plan on keeping this thing, I'd shop at FCP Euro. They offer a lifetime warranty for EVERYTHING. I even know people who send their brake pads back to them, and they don't even give them trouble (though please don't do this).

Thank you Blckstrm this is an awesome write up! Thank you!

I had done quite a bit of reading on the main issues when buying an E36 but having it sitting for that long is a whole different ball game.

[SilasBR]

@Blckstrm

Thank you Blckstrm for taking the time to write this up it is a lot of very useful information.
I hd seen some of the points you made in other threads regarding the most common things to look for when buying and E36. But having this one sitting for so long is a different ballgame

@realjones

Thank you! I will see it running first. In fact I offered to help him get it running and moving even if I don’t keep it, it will be a joy to work on an M3.
And tires are on my mind.
I might even find a way to take it in for a PPI but not super sure yet. If when we lift it I don’t see any major rust points on the undercarriage I might not take it in for a PPI as I already know that at some point in the near future I will need to replace all the items Blckstrm mentioned.


Whats the best way to flush the Gas?

[blckstrm]

Whats the best way to flush the Gas?

I guess it depends on how full it is. If it's closer to empty, you have to replace the fuel filter anyway - turn on the ignition (after you put in the new battery) and let the fuel pump drain the tank. If there's a lot of gas in the tank, you may want to pull the fuel pump and siphon it out (I don't think you can put a hose down the filler neck, but you could try that first). Either way you go you DO need to replace the filter (and let the bad gas drain from the forward lines / fuel rail).

Once you put in some good gas I'd turn on the ignition and attach something to the Schrader valve on the fuel rail to flush out the rest of the gas up there that didn't drain when you did the filter. And I'd make sure you use some good top tier gas to help clean out any varnish that has formed.

[bmw328m52]

Once the vehicle can move under its own power, may be a good idea to request a quick car wash/interior cleaning by current owner. You can then view the condition of the car outside the gloomy garage where lighting seems to be a problem.

[emoore924]

Sitting for 6 years means every system is suspect. Brakes. Cooling. Fuel. Electrical (mice *love* to eat wiring).

Why was it parked 6 years ago?

Hate to rain on the parade but a not running and driving car for $4k, and rust included for free? No way. Pure headache.

Besides, look what you could buy for a little more money (less than you'd spend to fix that other car) plus essentially zero time and effort. (took me 5 min to find this, nmna)

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...7-BMW-M3-Coupe

[Ajcanadian]

Do a compression test before buying it. That's how my M3 ended up! Def looks solid for 4k but be ready to dump another 4k into it

[verobeach97]

Sitting for 6 years means every system is suspect. Brakes. Cooling. Fuel. Electrical (mice *love* to eat wiring).

Why was it parked 6 years ago?

Hate to rain on the parade but a not running and driving car for $4k, and rust included for free? No way. Pure headache.

Besides, look what you could buy for a little more money (less than you'd spend to fix that other car) plus essentially zero time and effort. (took me 5 min to find this, nmna)

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...7-BMW-M3-Coupe

Let’s face it, that sale ad was an absolute steal. It sold in 1 day I think lol. Real asking price could well have been 12-13k for slow sale on that piece.


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[nick325xit 5spd]

Rust on the body, rusty undercarriage, sitting for a long time...

This car isn’t going to be a bargain, period.

[SilasBR]

@blckstrm thank you for the very useful instructions.

@bmw328m52 I definitely will look more closely at this car!

@emore924 the rust was on the trunk lid and very small spotting.
It’s been sitting for some reasons that pertain to personal matters of the previous owner.
I appreciate the ad and the concern.

@ajcanadian thank you for suggesting the compression test. Unless some issue with compression should arise because of it sitting for 6 years I don’t believe that would be an issue.

@verobeach97 yeah, that ad almost looked to good to be true!


Now some more pictures.




And no we have not cranked it yet. Just checking that all electronics not engine related still work. And they and do!

[RickyN F355]

i spent 12K on a pretty clean car and then spent another 30k getting it freshened up!!! this thing is going to be a money pit!

[SilasBR]

i spent 12K on a pretty clean car and then spent another 30k getting it freshened up!!! this thing is going to be a money pit!

Do you mind detailing what you spent so much on? Just seems unrealistic...

Thank you!

[RickyN F355]

Its all documented on here. I created a post. Let me know if you cant find it when you search.


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[RickyN F355]

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ears-of-E36-M3

[SilasBR]

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ears-of-E36-M3

That is an awesome project you have there, but I consider that much more than a freshen up.
I would bet the car was in quite good shape and you could use it for a good chunk of time before really needing anything major.

But keep it going Im curious to see how it turns out.

[RickyN F355]

in my mind i had to do full brakes, suspension, and tires because i have 3 young kids and i wldnt put them at risk. from there the interior noise was so bad that all the weather stripping had to be replaced. window motors need to be replaced and the sunroof had to be fixed. so of the 30k i spent maybe about half was safety/drive quality and half was cosmetic. still not a 6 or 7k job for the car in question here.

[RND1]

Silas, don't let these guys scare you away. This looks like a great project and if you can confirm a sound motor and body, you can hardly go wrong for $4K. Baseline it, get some new tires, and enjoy the heck out of it. I've had a few old BMW's and the E36 M3 has been the most reliable.

[blckstrm]

Silas, don't let these guys scare you away. This looks like a great project and if you can confirm a sound motor and body, you can hardly go wrong for $4K. Baseline it, get some new tires, and enjoy the heck out of it. I've had a few old BMW's and the E36 M3 has been the most reliable.

I'll second that.

I've done close to nothing in the last two years. I budgeted around $2k / year at the beginning for maintenance / upkeep / repairs, and I was pretty close to that for the first five years or so. But lately it's been oil changes and the odd failure (my O'Reilly's replacement alternator needed replacement - under warranty - less than 20k miles after I got it).

But the car's been rock solid. I've had the heads off my escalade twice in the last five years for odd valvetrain problems, while I replaced my M3's head gasket at 145k miles six or seven years ago. I love the LS, but my S52 has been the more reliable motor over its life (which has been longer and harder. I never drive the Escalade like I drive the M3, and the M3 has 50k more miles).

Aside from the couple things that could really ruin your day, just make a list, fix what breaks, and get to things as you can.

You don't have to make it perfect on anyone else's time frame. In fact, you don't need to make it perfect at all.

You can push it, fix it, mod it, build it how you want.

That's the beauty of these things!