Smoking on startup saga continues...

[951Dreams]

So, about 6 months ago I removed the intake and did all seals, CCV, and intake gaskets to address bad cold start/missing issues/smoking on startup. It solved all my problems aside from the smoking on startup issue. For about 3-4 days I had no smoke. Then it came back. A little at first, hit and miss. Then more, and finally in the last 3-4 weeks it's full on James Bond smoke screen mode on startup.

So I ordered ANOTHER CCV, and an oil pan gasket. I got a new CCV because I've read a clogged OSV will cause them to fail. I was suspecting a clogged OSV, and a bad CCV because of it. Dove in yesterday and replaced the CCV.

Right off the bat, as soon as I started pulling vacuum lines, I noticed my "Sucking Jet Pump" (the Y thingie that goes to the j-boot, ccv, and brake booster) had come back apart. I have no idea if it was already broken, or if I broke it when I pulled the line. It had came apart (common issues says the internet) when I did the intake work. As I didn't have time to wait for a new one then, I had epoxyed it back together. More on that in a minute.

So, once the CCV was all done, I jacked it up and removed the oil pan. My plan was to do the weed-wacker/kerosene clean out trick. I started off running the line up the tube. I was disappointed to not feel ANY resistance or "crunchiness" After many tries I switched to the kerosene flush.

Let me take a minute to give some advice here. If your going to do this, I HIGHLY suggest getting one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MVA68...rds=fluid+pump


mityvac-car-diagnostic-kits-mitmva6851-64_1000.jpg

It worked AWESOME. Highly recommend having one of these around the garage. In my case I also have lots of silicone vacuum line laying around for my Porsche's. I took a scrap piece about 1.5 inches long and used it to adapt the tube coming out of this thing to the tube to the OSV. Worked GREAT!!! And I could fill the OSV, then suck it back out. Rinse, repeat. Best way for SURE to flush out the OSV, hands down.

BUTTTTT... Aside from a few flecks of black, and the kerosene turning kinda dark, not much really came out.

I really wanted it to be a clogged OSV. But mine seemed pretty clean.

All was not lost. I was able to verify the pan was clean as a whistle. NOTHING in the pan. So at least my Timing Chain Guides are OK for now. That honestly was at least 1/2 the reason I wanted to drop the pan. I half suspect they may have been done at some point. The little of them I've been able to see from the intake job and the pan drop show they LOOK good. But I know that doesn't mean much. But it did give me some small peace of mind.

Also, I tore apart the old (only 6 months old tho) CCV. It was in perfect condition.

My OSV seems clean. I suppose I could have shot any gunk out the top when I overfilled the OSV, but I never saw anything.

At this point, I'm hoping the "Sucking Jet Pump" had let go BEFORE I started my work yesterday. I think if it had I should have felt softness in the brakes, but I'm hoping. Cause I've addressed everything else I know to check for bad smoking at startup. I JB welded the HECK out of it this time, but I just ordered a new one anyway, should be here next week.

I'll update with my smoking issue, and if the "SJP" fixes the problem. It will take a little bit to be sure. But I 100% don't think the CCV can work right without a good vacuum from the SJP. So fingers crossed.

[nmlss2006]

I don't have the issue for now, but I did order the pump, which looks very useful actually. I may suggest supplementing with the Jabsco drill pump for those times when you have more liquid to move, BTW.

[Timm]

That's excellent work, it is a shame that the OSV wasn't clogged, but it is always worth a clean anyway. The brake-booster vacuum take-off point shouldn't affect the PCV at all, it is a port from the inlet manifold rather than from the vent system. If the oil is coming from the vent system then you will see oil contamination on the PCV diaphragm.

Even saying that, the few days grace when you did the PCV the last time and it slowly getting worse does sound like the vent system rather than valve guides,

[951Dreams]

Yeah, the mechanic in my head was telling me since it plugged into it, it had to relate to it. However the engineer in my head was arguing due to the routing it wasn't related. And if it had come apart before I moved the hose I'd expect I'd have noticed almost no brake assist. I'm just grasping at straws.

But if it had come apart, I would have for sure had a vacuum leak. Maybe that could have caused the PCV system to function poorly? I'm still not 100% on this convoluted PCV setup BMW decided to use. I understand the basics, but how it all ties in together is still beyond me. Even tho I've had the whole thing apart!

But I am fairly certain it's not valve guides... or at least not JUST valve guides. The first time the intake, CCV, TB and J-boot were all filled with oil. I had about 4 days of smoke free start-up after the work, then it just got worse and worse till it was a total smoke fest the last few weeks. After I did the new CCV(old one WAS full of oil, diaphragm was covered) and OSV clean out I had the first smoke free start in months! I haven't started it since because I'm getting the 951 ready for a big Porsche event this next week so I've been driving that. But I'll be driving the BMW the next 3 days so we'll see.

If it's not related to the SJP, I guess the only other thing it could be is the top of the OSV is broken. If that's the case I'll likely just do an external OSV setup. Or maybe I shot the blockage out the top of the OSV when flushing and just wasn't aware. One way or the other I've got to get this resolved because it was getting to the point I really couldn't drive it anymore. Just too much smoke.

[purplecty]

Used an OE PCV? Was there alot of oil inside the intake?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[951Dreams]

No, I used URO. However from what I understand the only part that can fail is the diaphragm. I took the one that had been on there apart and the diaphragm was fine, and really very robust design. Heavy duty. I inspected it thoroughly. No damage, no tearing. From what I had read, the problem with aftermarket ones is they don't last long and tear. This didn't seem to be the case.

But if the problem comes back, I'm not against trying a OEM one.

And yes, the intake and PCV was full of oil

[purplecty]

No, I used URO. However from what I understand the only part that can fail is the diaphragm. I took the one that had been on there apart and the diaphragm was fine, and really very robust design. Heavy duty. I inspected it thoroughly. No damage, no tearing. From what I had read, the problem with aftermarket ones is they don't last long and tear. This didn't seem to be the case.

But if the problem comes back, I'm not against trying a OEM one.

And yes, the intake and PCV was full of oil

I would never use any URO parts, especially for the pcv which is known to fail pretty quickly... Also, check the pipe that runs under the intake manifold which can develop a crack on the small rubber piece attached to the end of it...
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...il-11151705301

And here is the OE PCV. There is a review there that pretty much says it all...
https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...11617501563bmw


Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[robo740il]

+1 on the vent pipe. Mine had a crack in the rubber end.
The OSV also gets very brittle and may well have cracked.

[951Dreams]

So I had 2 days of smoke free startups. But after my first long drive we're back to where I started.

I'm wondering about the OSV itself, or that pipe bend as mentioned above. I had read another smoking thread on here we're the OP asked about the kerosene pouring back down when overfilled. They were told in that thread it was normal. However looking at pictures of OSV's and diagrams, to me I looks like the kerosene should fill up the OSV, then the pipe, then the CCV, then the intake before a chance for any to spill over.

Anyone who's had this apart chime in?

I'm thinking at this point my OCV is broken, or the pipe is. I won't be replacing it any time soon if that the case. I guess my next move is to do the external OSV mod....

[clarkitect]

I think the kerosene will come out of the intake port of the OSV. When I did the flush on the green car I had similar results as you are describing- the kero poured out when flushing. It fixed the smoking for a few days then it came back. My black car smoked but I replaced the OSV and CCV when I did the guides and it has never smoked again. The plastic neck on the OSV was disintegrated, effectively bypassing it, and allowing oil to get sucked into the intake.

[racer2086]

So first, ditch the URO CCV. I think you need to take that variable out of it. If it's sucking too much vacuum in, the oil may not be able to separate from the vapors and condense back to the oil pan.

So I know more about the pre-facelift set up than the facelift, because I've done the guides on my PFL. The CCV on the back of the intake plugs into the vent tube that goes under the intake. Then the vent tube plugs onto a metal elbow that goes through the block.

The OSV is plugged onto that metal elbow. Then the plastic OSV plugs onto the tube that runs to the oil pan. The OSV has a large intake hole in it that is sucking in the crankcase vapors. They are supposed to cyclone in that OSV so the oil condenses on the outside and drips back to the oil pan through the thin tube.

Here, go here to see what this thing looks like: http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/posts/876903. About halfway down the page when the get the passenger side guide out of the way, you can see the OSV.

So, I can see problems occurring if the oil is not getting separated in that OSV. 3 things I can think of that make that happen: the vacuum on the OSV is too large and pulling the vapors through too fast, the OSV is not properly connected to the metal elbow (broken? o-ring bad? just came off?) and just sucking oil in from the timing cover area, or the OSV internally has gunk on the insides.

The kerosene will flow out that intake port of the OSV when you fill up the tube from below. It won't tell you much about what the inside of that OSV looks like though because that intake port is off to the side and angled so the OSV would fill up like halfway before it started dribbling out. What I would imagine is if it is coated with stuff, you need to really spray that thing down or flush a lot through it to clean it. You may need to pour some seafoam through the pipe that plugs up at the CCV on the back of the intake to let the stuff really flow through the OSV top to bottom. Some will go out the intake port -- hopefully not all.

But the first thing I would do is use an OEM CCV and maybe pour some seafoam down that upper tube?

[R Shaffner]

You might want to check out this recent thread:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...he-valve-cover

I'm not suggesting that you vent to the atmosphere, as he did.

Check the pics I posted there and you'll see an external OSV set-up (with an X5 OSV for the M62). I by-passed the old OSV in my '02 540i and made an exit for the blow-by gasses in the driver's side cam cover, as the original poster did. (Looks like he was the same car that you do, so I suspect the unused hose fitting is on your 740i too.)

I routed the gasses back to the CCV (after a little custom modification), and added a hose to drain the oil from the OSV back to the sump as in the picture. Search here for "catch cans" and "external OSV" to find other helpful threads.

Here's a good one that I also posted on.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...t=external+osv

[georgebest]

Meyle CCV works fine, installed mine a year ago, no issues: https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...-11617501563my
It is clearly one of the three things: CCV, oil pipe or OSV. You can check the oil pipe without removing the manifold "only" removing the water pump. It gets a quite good view and you can check the other end when removing the CCV.
If your TCGs were done, I would think they replaced the OSV as well when doing it. Anybody sensible would do that.

[951Dreams]

So I'm going to try and check the "rubber" piece on the OSV side of the oil pipe under the intake this week. Really, unless the OSV is broken up top, that's the last thing it could be. I'm tempted to order up the parts for the "catch can" mod in case I get in there and find everything is fine. If it's the OSV itself, since my TCG's seem fine, replacing it is NOT going to happen.

I was thinking if I just took the intake loose, I might be able to move it enough to get at that rubber piece without fully removing the intake. Any thoughts on that? Like taking the drivers side coils wire loose, all the intake bolts loose, and prying it up some??

I should have checked that darn thing when I had the intake off, but visual inspection of the top of it looked good. But if it's cracked or broken on the bottom I'd have no way of knowing. Didn't think to check the bottom of it. I had to bend that rubber piece pretty good when I reinstalled the intake as I already had the CCV on when I reinstalled, and to get the CCV side of the pipe seated I had to bend it up pretty good. I'm betting if that rubber piece wasn't already broken, I likely tore it up when I reinstalled the intake.

In my defense I don't think I was yet aware it was a failure point when I had the intake off. Don't think I read about it till I still had my problems after the intake work, and dug deeper. I had been pretty convinced it was the CCV and had fully expected replacing it during the intake gasket replacement would fix my smoking issue 100%.

My current plan is to check the oil pipe fitting at the OSV end, and if that checks out to fit a "catch can" mod while I have it apart. I suppose as a last resort I could try a OEM CCV, but I'm doubting I'd have had two bad aftermarkets in a row. And even if they failed, I doubt both would have failed a day or two after install.

[georgebest]

I was thinking if I just took the intake loose, I might be able to move it enough to get at that rubber piece without fully removing the intake. Any thoughts on that? Like taking the drivers side coils wire loose, all the intake bolts loose, and prying it up some??

Are we talking about the oil pipe going from the CCV to OSV? That is easy to inspect with a flashlight at the CCV end, more difficult on the water pump/OSV side. On the CCV side it's kind of tricky to connect it properly when installing.

[83EWMB]

Hopefully this question is pertinent to this thread as it is addressing the CCV and OCV components and there appears to be a great deal of knowledge on the components. I have a loud "humming" noise coming from the back of the engine after warm-up. The noise is quite loud and can be muted by pushing on the CCV diaphragm but comes back when my hand is removed. There is no noise until the car is driven 4-5 miles and if the car is turned off and restarted, the noise does not reappear until again driving a couple of miles. I replace the CCV (Meyle, on back of manifold) 6 months ago and plan to remove manifold and change again (Meyle) this week. My question is could a plugged/broken OSV (in lower timing chain cover) change the vacuum/pressure at the CCV after warming up and cause a "good" CCV diaphragm appear defective and make this noise. There is no smoke at all coming from the exhaust pipe.

[AuntJemima]

Are you using synthetic oil in your engine like Mobil 1? My sisters 1985 Honda with 130K miles used to smoke on startup with dino (regular) oil. It would foul one spark plug, probably an old leaking piston ring on that cylinder. I switched to Mobil 1 synthetic and smoke was dramatically reduced and spark plug fouling stopped. Seems the synthetic oil burns clean with less residue / smoke. She drove that car into the ground for another 50K miles after the oil switch, I took it away from her for safety reasons and gave her my old red BMW 318i to keep her happy.

Just my .02, I am not an RKI. As a chemist I tend to favor chemical solutions to glaring mechanical problems...

[Timm]

A humming PCV usually means too much air is going through it - and that means a vacuum leak in the crankcase (oil cap, vent pipe between PCV and OSV, valve cover gaskets etc.).

[83EWMB]

Thanks Timm. I'll look into that and post results. There are no codes being reported.

[951Dreams]

Are we talking about the oil pipe going from the CCV to OSV? That is easy to inspect with a flashlight at the CCV end, more difficult on the water pump/OSV side. On the CCV side it's kind of tricky to connect it properly when installing.

The OSV side is my concern. The CCV side I can see, and get to easy enough.

Are you using synthetic oil in your engine like Mobil 1? My sisters 1985 Honda with 130K miles used to smoke on startup with dino (regular) oil. It would foul one spark plug, probably an old leaking piston ring on that cylinder. I switched to Mobil 1 synthetic and smoke was dramatically reduced and spark plug fouling stopped. Seems the synthetic oil burns clean with less residue / smoke. She drove that car into the ground for another 50K miles after the oil switch, I took it away from her for safety reasons and gave her my old red BMW 318i to keep her happy.

Just my .02, I am not an RKI. As a chemist I tend to favor chemical solutions to glaring mechanical problems...

Yes, Mobil One Euro car blend. 0w-40.

[Deron]

I am having white smoke on start up after my mechanic replaced the oil separator valve. I am told that a quart of transmission oil would help as the car was parked for months before the fix was complete. I am also having a camshaft position sensor error using INPA and the analog values for the ICV, 114! and engine load also with exclamation sign with the MAF connected no MAF error, only camshaft sensor error. When the MAF is disconnected the engine load reading is within range but the ICV value does not change. Both MAF and camshaft errors are present. INPA is also reading VANOS valve off for one of the Digital or Analog screens.
Need some advice. Has anyone ever tried the transmission oil?

- - - Updated - - -

Should add that I have changed a few camshaft sensors with the same results including one from the local supplier who swears by his brand.

[951Dreams]

Well, turns out you CAN remove the oil pipe without removing the intake. Unfortunately, while the rubber piece was on it's last legs, it had no holes. I tested it and it wasn't leaking. Very disappointing. That means the only thing left it can be really is a broken OSV.

BTW, if you remove the CCV from the back of the intake, and remove the throttle body, you can pull the oil tube out from under the intake through the front. There is JUUUSSSTTTT enough room. I replaced the rubber, it wouldn't have lasted much longer. Since I'm out of options other than replacing the OSV (and since my TCG's are fine, not going to happen) I started on a plan of bypassing the whole thing. Since I already had the Throttle Body off I capped the tube inside the intake, and drilled a hole in the top of the CCV where the oil tube connects. My pan was to use that for now as a vent to prevent crank case pressure. I had planned on doing a catch can later, once I found one.

However, things didn't go as planned. I was expecting either positive pressure, or nothing. What I got was vacuum on that line. Since I blocked off the tube inside the intake at the Throttle Body, and seeing that's where the vacuum for the CCV on later models comes from, this has me quite baffled. My best guess at this point is that either the tube inside the intake is cracked, or when I took it loose to cap it I somehow didn't get it mounted up right and the CCV isn't sealed with the tube but instead is open to the inside of the intake. I was trying to leave everything but the CCV itself intact so later down the road I can return the system back to stock by just replacing the CCV with a new one.

Looks like I'm going to have to pull it all again tomorrow, this time I'm just going to block the vacuum intake on the CCV at the CCV itself. Not taking any chances this time. Then I'll hook my vent line to a catch can for now, in time I'll likely install an external OSV. Just want to get my setup tested and working before moving forward.

So far that's 3 attempts to solve my smoking issue, I'm 0 for 3 so far...

[georgebest]

Sorry to hear, that's frustrating. Who in the right mind replacing TCGs without putting a new OSV in? Hope you figure out something.

[R Shaffner]

I started on a plan of bypassing the whole thing. Since I already had the Throttle Body off I capped the tube inside the intake, and drilled a hole in the top of the CCV where the oil tube connects. My pan was to use that for now as a vent to prevent crank case pressure. I had planned on doing a catch can later, once I found one.

However, things didn't go as planned. I was expecting either positive pressure, or nothing. What I got was vacuum on that line. Since I blocked off the tube inside the intake at the Throttle Body, and seeing that's where the vacuum for the CCV on later models comes from, this has me quite baffled. My best guess at this point is that either the tube inside the intake is cracked, or when I took it loose to cap it I somehow didn't get it mounted up right and the CCV isn't sealed with the tube but instead is open to the inside of the intake. I was trying to leave everything but the CCV itself intact so later down the road I can return the system back to stock by just replacing the CCV with a new one.

Looks like I'm going to have to pull it all again tomorrow, this time I'm just going to block the vacuum intake on the CCV at the CCV itself. Not taking any chances this time. Then I'll hook my vent line to a catch can for now, in time I'll likely install an external OSV. Just want to get my setup tested and working before moving forward.

We'd like to help but some (like me) might be a bit confused. (Though we can all agree it's a confusing and over-engineered system.)

What did you cap off and where did you drill a hole? And are you talking about the tube inside the intake (which you should leave as it was) or under the intake?

Again, I suggest that you look closely at some of the diagrams on this thread:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...t=external+osv

You need to make sure there's a way for blow-by gasses to escape. If the internal OSV is broken or clogged, you'll get a lot of oil coming through it with the blow-by gasses. That can fill a catch can pretty fast. Using an external OSV to route the oil back to the crankcase is the cheap and easy part. (I used one from an X5 of the same vintage with the same engine.) The harder parts are routing the gasses from the crankcase to the OSV, and from the OSV to the CCV. Still, easier than opening up the front of the engine.

[951Dreams]

Once I get my system working, I'll post up pics that will make sense of it all.

The hole I drilled was for escaping blow-by gases, just didn't work as I expected. I was expecting positive pressure not vacuum. Plugging the tube INSIDE the intake should have cut off vacuum to the CCV, however it didn't. That tells me something is broken or not sealing in that part of the setup. I suspect I didn't get the INSIDE tube seated back right , and instead of sealing to the CCV the CCV pushed it into the intake, without making a seal. I think now the CCV is dumping the gas/oil at the back of the intake, instead of up front at the Throttle Body. Has to be really, as the tube is sealed up at the TB. Only possibility really is that I somehow broke the INSIDE tube, or it didn't seat at the CCV. And I don't think I broke the tube, however it did come loose at the rear when I was plugging it. I thought I got it re-seated, but it seems I didn't.

I'm going to pull the CCV again this week, and plug up the middle hole in the CCV. That will 100% accomplish what I'm trying to do. Once I have that working right I'm going to try and find a catch-can to route the blow-by gasses into. I'm expecting most of the oil to drop out of the gasses by the time it gets to my vent setup, but we'll see.