Uh oh, it's not the timing chain guides

[curtmcd]

R Shaffner, thanks for "over-posting".

I inserted a wooden rod in the spark plug hole and put some pressure on it. It goes up and down with the piston smooth as can be. Because of this, and because there are no metal filings whatsoever, I'm with folks who say it's in the top end. Once it's back together I'll try the plug-pulling trick. I also think oil pump is a good guess, and if that turns out to be it, it should be possible to change removing only the lower oil pan.

One thing I've noticed is that when slowly rotating the crank with a ratchet, the bank 5-8 intake cam jerks suddenly as it moves past the front-most lifter. Would that be normal due to chain/tensioner slack?

[JimLev]

One thing I've noticed is that when slowly rotating the crank with a ratchet, the bank 5-8 intake cam jerks suddenly as it moves past the front-most lifter. Would that be normal due to chain/tensioner slack?

That's completely normal. It's due to the valve springs pushing on the cam lobes. Both sides will do it.

[R Shaffner]

Yeah, when I saw my cams move like that I realized that most of the chain slack is taken out by the oil pressure in the tensioner (not the little spring).

About the test with a rod in the spark plug hole, you said you kept pressure on the rod while turning the crank. As I understand the test, one is supposed to turn the crank w/o pushing on the piston, until that piston starts to move down. Then one would use a tool to push on the piston to see if one felt or heard any movement.

In any event, running the engine while disconnecting one coil at a time should tell you a lot.

[curtmcd]

I did a marathon session until 2am this morning putting the car back together. Actually 3 am, but I got an extra hour due to DST fall-back. I put back every part, right down to the engine cover and belly pan, because I had no intention of opening things up again. Today, filled it with oil and coolant included with the ECS Tuning kit.

I turned the key and she started right up. The noise was different. This time it's in a proper 4-cycle, with clicking in a higher tone indicative of lifter noise obviously coming from just under the valve covers.


I realized the higher RPM from my original video was because the ECU keeps the revs up until the engine reaches operating temperature, then suddenly drops RPM. In this video the engine warmed up and the RPMs dropped to 330 RPM (or it could be 660 RPM... I only know the lifter click is 5.5 Hz).

I took a run up and down the freeway to get oil into the lifters, and lo and behold she is now purring along. It threw an 0F 8C code, but I think that might be because the coolant ran low once it circulated.


I figure the original (really loud) noise was a combination of lifter noise and weak (19-year-old) tensioners. Upshot is I have refreshed the guides, saved $3000-$4000 in labor and had some fun. BMWs might have their issues, but they are pretty pleasant to work on if you just buy the proper tools and go at it methodically.

I figure she's good for another 75k miles before the VANOS acts up (I chose to skip VANOS seals and gaskets). That will take me years because I only drive it 2000mi/year these days. The vast majority of time I get around on my Zero FX.

A big thanks to all who helped out!

[geargrinder]

(I chose to skip VANOS seals and gaskets).

That's a shame. You very well are leaving performance on the table for what would have been short money / free labor while it was all apart. Gaskets aren't really the thing, its the hub seals. The VANOS seals will cause decreased performance for ages before (if ever) it gets so bad that it throws a code for not reaching expected cam location.


I'm not sure anything is really actually confirmed/fixed here but... Seems a lot like a "well it went away so, whatever" to me, but... good luck to yah bud.

[R Shaffner]

Yes - congrats! The noise sure sounded bad in the first video.

And thanks for letting us know. (Some people never close the loop.)

[JimLev]

Yes - congrats! The noise sure sounded bad in the first video.

And thanks for letting us know. (Some people never close the loop.)

^__what he said.

Don't forget to check your coolant level.

[philly98540]

Cool. Glad you found it

[curtmcd]

It looks like I'm not out of the woods yet because the low oil pressure is recurring. Low oil pressure is probably what accounted for the all the original top-end noise in my original post, so the timing chain/guide/tensioner replacement was all overkill.

Oil lamp started flickering rapidly at idle. Last time out, it went solid at idle and extinguishes whenever the throttle is applied.


- New filter and BMW 5W-30 oil at correct level.
- Oil pressure switch was replaced, did not affect it.
- Oil pump bolts properly torqued, pickup screen clear.

Been googling for a long time and it sounds like oil pumps just don't really fail. I may try:
- Run through Motor Flush or Seafoam
- Change to heavier oil.

[Santaclaus4]

You really need to install an oil pressure gauge and see what the oil pressure actually is.
I watched your video. The engine sounds really good.
Then again, I've heard an old adage from racing that an engine runs best right before it blows up...

[itsbrokeagain]

Try it with 10w-30? The E46 we have tends to drink a little if 5w-30 is put in and spends time at extended highway speeds.

[BimmerBreaker]

Scuse me for not rereading the whole thread but, oil pump pulley/chain tension?

Try 10w40, 5w30 might be too thin at this age.

[Cyrix2k]

Depending on the brand, 5w30 is thin to begin with. I've always run 0w40 or 10w40. I suspect there's a more severe issue though... iirc, the oil pressure switch is triggered at 8 psi which is LOW. Normally that would indicate excessive bearing clearances. If it hasn't been run long like this, it might be possible to get away with just installing new main & rod bearings.

[Santaclaus4]

Depending on the brand, 5w30 is thin to begin with. I've always run 0w40 or 10w40.

Actually, 0W40 is thin to begin with, hence the "0". Lol...
You really need to install an oil pressure gauge or find another way to verify oil pressure unless you just like to keep guessing and experimenting.

[TerraPhantm]

Actually, 0W40 is thin to begin with, hence the "0". Lol...
You really need to install an oil pressure gauge or find another way to verify oil pressure unless you just like to keep guessing and experimenting.

When cold. And it'll still be thicker at 0ºC than say a 20-50 would be at operating temperature. When warmed up, it should be about as thick as most other xw-40s

[BimmerBreaker]

Yeah but when cold a 0w40 is thinner than a 10w40, that much is true. And either of those would be thinner at 0C and 100C than a 20w50 though unless I misunderstood your post

The w stands for winter, first number is cold viscosity. So 0w20, 0w40, 0w20000 are all the within the same "0" parameters for viscosity at 0C. Second number is viscosity at operating temp, measured at 100C. In this case the higher the number the thicker it is, a 0w40 is thicker at operating temp than a 15w30

[TerraPhantm]

Yeah but when cold a 0w40 is thinner than a 10w40, that much is true. And either of those would be thinner at 0C and 100C than a 20w50 though unless I misunderstood your post

The w stands for winter, first number is cold viscosity. So 0w20, 0w40, 0w20000 are all the within the same "0" parameters for viscosity at 0C. Second number is viscosity at operating temp, measured at 100C. In this case the higher the number the thicker it is, a 0w40 is thicker at operating temp than a 15w30

My point is a 0w-40 when cold will still be considerably thicker than any other oil when warm - so it’s never too thin for the engine. Ideally an oil would maintain a constant viscosity (say 13 cSt) at all temperatures, but that’s impossible. In fact it would probably be ideal if the oil thickened slightly as the engine warmed up since clearances would increase. But again, that’s impossible. So we have multi grade oils to minimize thickness when cold, but they still end up orders of magnitude more viscous than when warm.

[philly98540]

Just to add, all motor oils get thinner in viscosity as they warm up. The 0w, in 0w-40, means that the oil behaves like a 0w oil when cold. The 40 means it behave like a 40 weight oil once warmed up to operating temps.

[tekoo]

FYI BMW recommends the change from 5w to 0w only in climates with a temperature of less than -20 Celsius (-4F). You can check my post on this thread for reference document.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...nger-available

[tekoo]

The oil indicator problem could still be due to electrical problem. You replaced the switch however there is still other components in the electrical circuit and computer board: Fuse 18, instrument cluster socket/pins, ground points, instrument cluster electronic board, ECU software/hardware..etc. If any of these components are defective you can get a false oil pressure alarm. In my opinion it is very unlikely that the vehicle suddenly requires a different grade of oil between a day and night. I would be more inclined to follow the wiring diagram and make sure there are no loose grounds, defective plugs/sockets or broken connection/circuit. I would also check all oil gaskets, seals, pans and caps are intact with no cracks or discrete leakage/venting. I would also scan the vehicle for error codes and see if I can read the oil pressure value using INPA or ISTA (will confirm the new switch works and give the actual numeric oil pressure value which you can compare to the benchmark https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...isplay/6u9QBSc) .


The brake switch/light wiring diagram can be found here:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...switch/nZVfxSj

Engine management:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...switch/x9EqYLm

The instrument cluster Pin out identification can be found here:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e39-540i-lim/ZSnqpHH

Oil pressure sensor B2008 is connected to PIN 3 in the instrument cluster A2

[TerraPhantm]

FYI BMW recommends the change from 5w to 0w only in climates with a temperature of less than -20 Celsius (-4F). You can check my post on this thread for reference document.

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...nger-available

You're not reading the German correctly. Here's the English version: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...engine/1PSryV8

Essentially, any LL-01 oil is fine. It is recommended to specifically seek out a 0w in areas that drop below -20C. There's no harm or loss of protection from using a 0w year round, but there may be some loss of protection from using a 5w in cold climates.

[tekoo]

1- German was my first language for a good 18 years so I can read and understand what is meant very well. Your English version just confirms the same info.
2-The recommendation specifically for 0W is for -20 Celsius or below conditions. There is a reason -20 Celsius was specifically designated in this statement and linked to 0W.
3- LL-01 is not all the same in climates with extreme weather conditions. Please refer to my last post in the above thread for more explanation. Long life is not a substitute or alternative to viscosity grade in extreme weather condition. Otherwise BMW oil wouldn’t have the 0w, 5w,10w .. etc. designation.

[tekoo]

If you read further in the document you will realize 5w-30 is the recommended oil for ALL brand new BMW engines during the first 2000 kilometers. This is the stage when the engine is most vulnerable, and therefore this is the oil viscosity that BMW sees as reliably ‘gentle’ in normal weather conditions.
0W appears to be meant as a fix for extreme cold conditions to compensate for increased viscosity from coldness or circumstances where the engine can’t tolerate normal oil heaviness perhaps due to age or any other factors.

[Cyrix2k]

TerraPhantm basically responded with exactly what I said in your other thread

If you read further in the document you will realize 5w-30 is the recommended oil for ALL brand new BMW engines during the first 2000 kilometers. This is the stage when the engine is most vulnerable, and therefore this is the oil viscosity that BMW sees as reliably ‘gentle’ in normal weather conditions.
0W appears to be meant as a fix for extreme cold conditions to compensate for increased viscosity from coldness or circumstances where the engine can’t tolerate normal oil heaviness perhaps due to age or any other factors.

From what I recall, the Castrol 5w-30 recommended by BMW falls on the heavy side of 5w-30s. Remember that oil is slotted into a predefined grade so there is the concept of "light" and "heavy" oils within a grade. Furthermore, I disagree that because BMW recommends a specific oil for new engines that it is "gentle." New engines often come with "break-in" oil that is the opposite of gentle; instead, it is designed to allow specific components to wear such as piston rings so they properly seat. That oil and resulting contaminants are then quickly flushed from the engine and normal service begins.

[TerraPhantm]

1- German was my first language for a good 18 years so I can read and understand what is meant very well. Your English version just confirms the same info.
2-The recommendation specifically for 0W is for -20 Celsius or below conditions. There is a reason -20 Celsius was specifically designated in this statement and linked to 0W.
3- LL-01 is not all the same in climates with extreme weather conditions. Please refer to my last post in the above thread for more explanation. Long life is not a substitute or alternative to viscosity grade in extreme weather condition. Otherwise BMW oil wouldn’t have the 0w, 5w,10w .. etc. designation.

I disagree with your explanation and any reasonable understanding of oil viscosities would lead one to understand that the 0w has no relevance once the engine is warmed up and would only be beneficial on a cold engine regardless of ambient temperature.

LL-01 is the minimum requirement (in the US, LL-04 / LL-12FE elsewhere). Within LL-01, 0w is recommended if in low temperatures. If the 0w was *only* for use in climates which reach those temperatures, they'd make a note of it in the list of LL-01 oils (and more than likely would have assigned them a different classification altogether): https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...ine/1VnYpiUbyG

LL-01 itself is largely a collection of ACEA A3/B4 rated oils that fall within the ranges of 0w-30 to 5w-40. Within that, you'll find the oils tend to straddle the upper limit of the 30 class or the lower limit of the 40 class. The ACEA A3/B4 is a better indication of how the oil will protect an engine than the usual viscosity ratings (which allow for a surprisingly wide range of viscosities within each rating)

Also note BMW's statement here: https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...engine/1NBygtn

BMW Longlife oils as specified for all BMW models as from 1998 are tested by BMW to ensure that they can be used worldwide all-year round at any ambient temperatures. It is therefore not necessary to pay attention to the viscosity class of BMW longlife oils. Exception: M47TÜ2, for SAE 5W-X oils there is a lower temperature limit of -20 °C. Cold starts may be impaired if the temperatures drop below this limit. In countries where the ambient temperatures frequently drop below -20 °C, we thus recommend the use of 0W instead of 5W products.

Note there's only a hard viscosity recommendation for the M47TU2, and even there they do not mention an upper temperature limit for 0w oils, only a lower limit for 5w. And now that I look closer at the other page, that (1) note also only applied t othe M47TU2. So your argument is irrelevant for the engines being discussed anyway.

If you read further in the document you will realize 5w-30 is the recommended oil for ALL brand new BMW engines during the first 2000 kilometers. This is the stage when the engine is most vulnerable, and therefore this is the oil viscosity that BMW sees as reliably ‘gentle’ in normal weather conditions.
0W appears to be meant as a fix for extreme cold conditions to compensate for increased viscosity from coldness or circumstances where the engine can’t tolerate normal oil heaviness perhaps due to age or any other factors.

This is what BMW says about factory fill oil - https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...engine/1bj9ayW

Initial-running or breaking-in oils

Factory fill oil, i.e. oils that provide extra protection against corrosion and better breaking-in characteristics, are to be regarded as a special case with respect to operation and operating conditions, and are not intended for use in Service.