Dreams of an E39 V10?

[jon316i]

Is it possible? I don't know but I'm going to try and do it!

Here is the donor car it's a 525i sport which now has had the engine removed and sold off


Now that's out of the way here's the new beast with a manual transmission bolted up


I have a spare sump that I offered up to the E39 subframe and it does fit, very far back to get over the steering rack though and I think the anti roll bar is in the way slightly.


I removed the airboxes from the engine to make things easier to work on and save damaging them with the chain


After the first test fit with the engine as low as possible sitting on the subframe and steering rack there was no way the bonnet was going to close it was roughly 30mm too high and it still needed lifting up a bit to get clearance on the steering rack.
<a href="https://imgur.com/KstxhKS"><img src="https://i.imgur.com/KstxhKS.mp4" title="source: imgur.com" /></a>

So it was back to the drawing board I have come up with a solution which I have roughly tested but it means mods to the bodyshell and subframe etc. But with the engine in my desired position the bonnet can close albeit with very little clearance to the insulation.


With the engine and gearbox in this location I can even fit the cabin filter boxes on which was a suprise! The tubes to the heater where very awkward to install I won't lie.


This is as far as I've got so far, progress will be slow while I try and sort the subframe situation out and see if my plan works or not!

[setho]

Looks like it's going to be a lot of fun making it work. Can't wait to see more updates!

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

[StRaNgEdAyS]

Have you considered swapping the I6 front subframe for the V8 one... I know this means you will be going to a steering box instead of a rack, but it may be easier to get it to fit.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

[atobe]

Oh my.

[jon316i]

Pictures now fixed, still struggling on the video front anyone got any ideas?

Looks like it's going to be a lot of fun making it work. Can't wait to see more updates!

Sent from my LG-H932 using Tapatalk

Cheers Seth I hope not to disappoint

Have you considered swapping the I6 front subframe for the V8 one... I know this means you will be going to a steering box instead of a rack, but it may be easier to get it to fit.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

I have looked at that and compared it to my 540, it appears the V8 subframe is for a car that is "front sumped," the V10 is rear dumper with a small bit at the front which houses the oil pump so cannot be modified unfortunately

[geargrinder]

Super cool project. Rock on brother.

Have you considered swapping the I6 front subframe for the V8 one... I know this means you will be going to a steering box instead of a rack, but it may be easier to get it to fit.

I have looked at that and compared it to my 540, it appears the V8 subframe is for a car that is "front sumped," the V10 is rear dumper with a small bit at the front which houses the oil pump so cannot be modified unfortunately

I did just google up pix of the E60 M5 subframe and indeed its a totally different animal - looks "wide open" in the middle so that's gonna be hard to replicate.

Yeah, I'm with Stranger, and think that is still worth pursuing though. V8 subframe might still be a better place to start for a few reasons... Gets the rack out of the way, easier to mod (steel vs structural aluminum) and make strong...

Maybe you can get away with just subframe mods or maybe you have a combo of (minor) sump mods + subframe mods? From a 2 second glance, it looks like if you had to you could do some minor mods to that V10 sump pan... like cutting up the actual sump reservoir and welding plates back in to reshape it?

There's nothing magic or specifically required about the 'middle bits' of the V8 subframe. I think you could replace the whole "H" center bit of the V8 with a similar steel fabrication X or H center shape of your own design that worked around the oddities and profiles of the V10 sump. Basically, get a V8 subframe, cut the middle "H" out, mount the halves into the chassis, hang the V10 and then figure out where to fit back in something as big/strong as what you just cut out.

(Occurs to me ^^^ the kind of thing tptrsn would knock out in a Saturday afternoon. Only very slightly joking! )

V8 subframe on land (upside down - i.e. looking at what faces the ground - that's the jacking point in the middle...).

[JimLev]

Is this one of the first V10 swaps? Good luck.
Subscribed.

[Santaclaus4]

Should we start another "deadpool" as a precaution?
BTW, I hope this is successful. I love the V10. Had a Ford V10 in the past and enjoyed it.

[philly98540]

Is this really happening? How much coin did you drop for the V10 and tranny? Nice. Those are rev monsters! I assume you got the V10 DME. How you going to intergrate that into the E39?

I'd try to keep the rack and pinion if you can make it work out somehow. The steel sub on the V8 is easier to mod and GG already said though...

Good Luck!

[ECSTuning]

Love it. Can't wait for more updates!
-James

[JimLev]

Looks kind of crusty in there, alien life form on a comeback?

[TerraPhantm]

Have you considered swapping the I6 front subframe for the V8 one... I know this means you will be going to a steering box instead of a rack, but it may be easier to get it to fit.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

Probably not. If anything, the E60 subframe is more similarly designed to the E39 I6 subframe.


E60 M5


E39 I6


I wonder how those subframe mounting points compare to the E39


And for whatever it's worth, here's the E60 I6/V8 subframe, which looks pretty much the same as the M5 one on a quick glance, but has a different part number

[jon316i]

Super cool project. Rock on brother.





I did just google up pix of the E60 M5 subframe and indeed its a totally different animal - looks "wide open" in the middle so that's gonna be hard to replicate.

Yeah, I'm with Stranger, and think that is still worth pursuing though. V8 subframe might still be a better place to start for a few reasons... Gets the rack out of the way, easier to mod (steel vs structural aluminum) and make strong...

Maybe you can get away with just subframe mods or maybe you have a combo of (minor) sump mods + subframe mods? From a 2 second glance, it looks like if you had to you could do some minor mods to that V10 sump pan... like cutting up the actual sump reservoir and welding plates back in to reshape it?

There's nothing magic or specifically required about the 'middle bits' of the V8 subframe. I think you could replace the whole "H" center bit of the V8 with a similar steel fabrication X or H center shape of your own design that worked around the oddities and profiles of the V10 sump. Basically, get a V8 subframe, cut the middle "H" out, mount the halves into the chassis, hang the V10 and then figure out where to fit back in something as big/strong as what you just cut out.

(Occurs to me ^^^ the kind of thing tptrsn would knock out in a Saturday afternoon. Only very slightly joking! )

V8 subframe on land (upside down - i.e. looking at what faces the ground - that's the jacking point in the middle...).

This is another avenue I may have to look into, having taken some measurements from my 540 the V10 is a much taller engine though so it could be a similar situation to where I am now.
I'm going to try a couple of ideas at the weekend and if that fails I may "borrow" the subframe of the 540 for a mock up.

Is this one of the first V10 swaps? Good luck.
Subscribed.

I think it could be Jim I've not seen another unless you have? Thanks it's going to be a long task!

Should we start another "deadpool" as a precaution?
BTW, I hope this is successful. I love the V10. Had a Ford V10 in the past and enjoyed it.

I've already been involved in the 540 Deadpool as mine has the jag Eaton setup so I have the credentials lol.

Is this really happening? How much coin did you drop for the V10 and tranny? Nice. Those are rev monsters! I assume you got the V10 DME. How you going to intergrate that into the E39?

I'd try to keep the rack and pinion if you can make it work out somehow. The steel sub on the V8 is easier to mod and GG already said though...

Good Luck!

I'm going to give it a good shot it will be my biggest project to date I'll admit that!
I can't say how much I paid just incase the girlfriend finds out, but it was a reasonable deal with other parts I got. I need to do the rod bearings as a precaution.
I'm planning to use the OEM DME if all falls into place worst case I can get a standalone ECU with a map for £1600 I'd prefer to use the OEM though with all protection and fault protection built in.

Love it. Can't wait for more updates!
-James

Thanks James

Looks kind of crusty in there, alien life form on a comeback?

Lol it lived outside in Scotland for 12 months in the rain

- - - Updated - - -

Probably not. If anything, the E60 subframe is more similarly designed to the E39 I6 subframe.


E60 M5


E39 I6


I wonder how those subframe mounting points compare to the E39

There miles off trust me.....
I've even cut the jacking point bar off the i6 subframe and it still won't go low enough the oil pumps are in the way

[DennisCooper]

Hi,


Somewhere deep on the interwebz some years back, a video appeared of an E39 leaving a car event/show/meet where the V10 engine sound could be heard, so I believe, someone somewhere out there has already done such a conversion.

Next, as it's being discussed here and the project is moving ahead, then there's a number of aspects to evaluate and are what I discssed a few years back with some of the UK's well known specialists.

1. There are Stand alone engine management systems out there which will allow the engine to run and all associated aspects without having to try and match up to the OEM E39 ECU - Saves a lot of time/faffing around and cost at the time I asked was around £2200, so 'around' $2500 USD I'd have thought currently
2. Not sure what the weight of the S85 engine is and then all of the extra ancilliaries. Perhaps some custom suspension spring rates and also uprated bushes etc would be needed.
3. This upgrade would need some excellent brakes so a full BBK would be required.
4. Custom exhaust would need to be fabricated and ideally, taking into consideration of gas flows, so not some back street hack together job.
5. The USA got a manual option for the E60 M5 and.. it didn't sell very well as from feedback from many who did buy one along with reviews and opinions, it didn't really suit the engine and driving dynamics it was capable of - the human gear changer slowed things down etc. I 'think' the E39 is lighter so in order to keep the engine 'on song' better, more and plentiful gear changes would be needed, so potentially, might begin to annoy and marr the driving experience. Caveat of course is that the owner may well *really* enjoy the manual and put up with those possible detrimental aspects.
6. Would any body/chassis stiffening be needed? i/.e does a non M5 chassis have enough strength to handle 500+ HP? if not, as I suspect, then stiffening would be needed.

Combine these aspects, and any 'gotchyas' with the physical fitting of the oily/mechanical bits, then to do the conversion well and properly is going to cost a significant amount even if all the labour costs are minimised by DIY.

Jon316i - Good luck with everything and your plans. Do they include the above aspects? if so, then great! if not, evaluate more and formulate how you'll want to progress. I'm not saying I know everything, so do speak to those who've done such conversions, specialist shops with more experience etc so that you get more of a rounded set of opinions/experience

**EDIT** just seen you're in the UK! A few years ago when I was thinking along these lines, a good mate had these in his garage;





In the background you can just about see the 2 other's there and I did 'order' him to plonk one into my Touring! I then did the initial finding out etc and my finances at the time wouldn't have stretched to how I'd have wanted the car to be! I know also that the V8 M3 manual gearbox is better for ratio's etc so that might be a better option. I can't remember much else, so hopefully you can ask around and get all the right/good/quality information. I'm by Heathrow, and if you are nearby or fancy a drive over, speak to Kevin at Birds in Iver. When Hartge were around, he was their UK representative and has done plenty of conversions along the lines of this so could be a good source of information. This also reminds me I need to pop in to talk with him again about a few things and pickup a couple of goodies I've been after!

Cheers, Dennis!

[jon316i]

Hi,


Somewhere deep on the interwebz some years back, a video appeared of an E39 leaving a car event/show/meet where the V10 engine sound could be heard, so I believe, someone somewhere out there has already done such a conversion.

Next, as it's being discussed here and the project is moving ahead, then there's a number of aspects to evaluate and are what I discssed a few years back with some of the UK's well known specialists.

1. There are Stand alone engine management systems out there which will allow the engine to run and all associated aspects without having to try and match up to the OEM E39 ECU - Saves a lot of time/faffing around and cost at the time I asked was around £2200, so 'around' $2500 USD I'd have thought currently
2. Not sure what the weight of the S85 engine is and then all of the extra ancilliaries. Perhaps some custom suspension spring rates and also uprated bushes etc would be needed.
3. This upgrade would need some excellent brakes so a full BBK would be required.
4. Custom exhaust would need to be fabricated and ideally, taking into consideration of gas flows, so not some back street hack together job.
5. The USA got a manual option for the E60 M5 and.. it didn't sell very well as from feedback from many who did buy one along with reviews and opinions, it didn't really suit the engine and driving dynamics it was capable of - the human gear changer slowed things down etc. I 'think' the E39 is lighter so in order to keep the engine 'on song' better, more and plentiful gear changes would be needed, so potentially, might begin to annoy and marr the driving experience. Caveat of course is that the owner may well *really* enjoy the manual and put up with those possible detrimental aspects.
6. Would any body/chassis stiffening be needed? i/.e does a non M5 chassis have enough strength to handle 500+ HP? if not, as I suspect, then stiffening would be needed.

Combine these aspects, and any 'gotchyas' with the physical fitting of the oily/mechanical bits, then to do the conversion well and properly is going to cost a significant amount even if all the labour costs are minimised by DIY.

Jon316i - Good luck with everything and your plans. Do they include the above aspects? if so, then great! if not, evaluate more and formulate how you'll want to progress. I'm not saying I know everything, so do speak to those who've done such conversions, specialist shops with more experience etc so that you get more of a rounded set of opinions/experience

**EDIT** just seen you're in the UK! A few years ago when I was thinking along these lines, a good mate had these in his garage;





In the background you can just about see the 2 other's there and I did 'order' him to plonk one into my Touring! I then did the initial finding out etc and my finances at the time wouldn't have stretched to how I'd have wanted the car to be! I know also that the V8 M3 manual gearbox is better for ratio's etc so that might be a better option. I can't remember much else, so hopefully you can ask around and get all the right/good/quality information. I'm by Heathrow, and if you are nearby or fancy a drive over, speak to Kevin at Birds in Iver. When Hartge were around, he was their UK representative and has done plenty of conversions along the lines of this so could be a good source of information. This also reminds me I need to pop in to talk with him again about a few things and pickup a couple of goodies I've been after!

Cheers, Dennis!

Hi Dennis
Thanks for your input in regards to your questions.

1- SCS delta do a mapped ECU and they mod the ECU connectors to suit for £1600 I doubt you'll have all the fault protection like factory which could save the day. I still think OEM is the best way forward though.

2. The S85 has been compared to similar weight as an s54 so probably not all that different from an s62 in an m5 body. I'm also going to be running coilovers so if I'm not happy I can always change the spring rates at a later date.

3. I'm allready running 6 pots on my 540i and I plan to run the same on this.

4. The exhaust is not at the top of my list at the moment that's a finishing off job with many other parts going to be more difficult and stressful, I plan to run the standard headers as they fit inside the chassis rails just fine.

5. Ive always preferred manuals so I'm willing to live with changing gear more often, I have an M3 v8 gearbox for the swap as theres no way to get the M5 manual box without buying new or importing from the states. I plan to get an e39 M5 diff and have a 3.62 gear put in it to match the E60 M5 ratio.

6. I can't see the body being any different in my opinion i know the m3's had extra diff reinforcement plates from the factory but the E39 never did, yes M5 rear subframe is slightly beefier and are known to need reinforcing which won't be an issue to get done.

Thanks for the heads up on Kevin I'll give him a shout if I get stuck

[computiNATEor]

The E39 M5 also got a pair of rear subframe braces that were not present on non-M5s. That’s the only significant chassis difference (besides the quicker steering box, which doesn’t matter here) that I can recall. More info here:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ce-install-DIY

Since you’re going to be changing the rear differential, you may want to look into changing the axles as well. There are different axle diameters; use RealOEM to compare. And since E39s do suffer from some moderate wheel hop issues, it might not be a bad idea to run two different axle diameters (like the Cadillac CTS-V and some others) to minimize wheelhop.

[jon316i]

The E39 M5 also got a pair of rear subframe braces that were not present on non-M5s. That’s the only significant chassis difference (besides the quicker steering box, which doesn’t matter here) that I can recall. More info here:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...ce-install-DIY

Since you’re going to be changing the rear differential, you may want to look into changing the axles as well. There are different axle diameters; use RealOEM to compare. And since E39s do suffer from some moderate wheel hop issues, it might not be a bad idea to run two different axle diameters (like the Cadillac CTS-V and some others) to minimize wheelhop.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts on the shell, I already have the subframe braces on my 540 also that has a M5 rear end with lsd etc.

I know what you mean about wheel hop it's bad in my 540 when on the drag strip it's horrible.
I know Thad had different axles on each side with his turbo build so it might be something I'll look into further down the line, M5 one side then 540 the other using an e32 output flange

[jon316i]

Here's a picture of the poor E60 that died to make this possible, my mate there looking happy with the days work.
IMG_20180915_132249.jpg

Aswell as the engine, box and DME I also got the full wiring harness which wasnt a fun job to remove
IMG_20180916_123041.jpg

I've had it in my garden shed slowing taking away some the useless bits like amplifier and door wiring there's still a lot more that needs removing but I won't do that till I've seen the engine run and remove things one at a time to ensure it does not affect running.
IMG_20180923_175820.jpg

There's not too many errors on the cluster (there would be abs if it was plugged in). I don't know if I'll be using the E60 cluster or not yet, it's the only way I can display oil level without fitting an actual dipstick
IMG_20180926_193756.jpg

[blarf]

Would a dry sump kit get you more space?

[geargrinder]

Would a dry sump kit get you more space?

I'm gonna guess there's not a shelf DS kit for that motor (or if there is it prob costs what Jon paid for the motor...) but its not a bad idea. Maybe homebrew it.

Like I said before you could take some slices on that stock sump and weld up plates - I wasnt thinking full dry sump but that's certainly a possibility... Cut the sump down, plate it off and add fittings...

[geargrinder]

This is another avenue I may have to look into, having taken some measurements from my 540 the V10 is a much taller engine though so it could be a similar situation to where I am now.
I'm going to try a couple of ideas at the weekend and if that fails I may "borrow" the subframe of the 540 for a mock up.

Yeah, From eyeballing it, I agree I doubt the 540 SF is gonna work out of the box. I'm just sayin, easier to fabricate with steel subframe in so many ways... easier welding, easier to fix mistakes or revisions or false starts, more certainty of getting it strong and safe...

I've even cut the jacking point bar off the i6 subframe and it still won't go low enough the oil pumps are in the way

I don't think thats JUST jacking point. I think thats important for rigidity...

[jon316i]

Would a dry sump kit get you more space?

As gear grinder has said the cost of a dry sump kit makes this a no go in an ideal world that would probably solve all the issues. Vac do a S65 kit which is 7k I imagine an S85 would be more

I'm gonna guess there's not a shelf DS kit for that motor (or if there is it prob costs what Jon paid for the motor...) but its not a bad idea. Maybe homebrew it.

Like I said before you could take some slices on that stock sump and weld up plates - I wasnt thinking full dry sump but that's certainly a possibility... Cut the sump down, plate it off and add fittings...

I have thought about doing this and it has been done in the post on 3 series swaps, theres an extra oil pump on each side of the sump which hits the sides of the i6 subframe which stops it going lower and remaking the sump to move them will no doubt be a nightmare job.

Yeah, From eyeballing it, I agree I doubt the 540 SF is gonna work out of the box. I'm just sayin, easier to fabricate with steel subframe in so many ways... easier welding, easier to fix mistakes or revisions or false starts, more certainty of getting it strong and safe...



I don't think thats JUST jacking point. I think thats important for rigidity...

Oh yeah a steel subframe makes things lots easier and it may be the only way forward but I have some other things to try before I give up on the rack and pinion steering lol.

I agree the bar is way more than a jacking point just had nothing to lose by getting it out of the way I can always get another subframe easily if needed, V8 subframes on the other hand are not that common in the UK as we got a lot less of them to start with.

[geargrinder]

I agree the bar is way more than a jacking point just had nothing to lose by getting it out of the way I can always get another subframe easily if needed, V8 subframes on the other hand are not that common in the UK as we got a lot less of them to start with.

I hear yah. I'm always trying to assplain to 'murcunz that the 540's are a rarity over the pond... even in Germany I've had people tell me they had no idea the car came with a V8 that wasn't the M5. Not super hardcore car/BMW guys certainly but still. We are swimming in them here comparatively. Unfort a subframe is a big thing to try to ship across, prob cost as much in ship as it would to buy it...

[tptrsn]

Jon, you are a MANIAC!! Subscribing to this thread!

I wish we were closer so I could help you out with some of the fabrication on this beast, it would be fun to do for sure. I'd love to give a go at some mods to the aluminum subframe to see what could be done with that.

And regarding the different axles side to side, you may know better than I do at this point, but IIRC, I ran the M5 one on the right side of the car, figuring that engine torque unloading that side would tend to make it the side that wanted to spin and hop more than the left side, so that would be the side that could benefit most from the stronger axle. Overall it did seem to work well. I also ran poly bushing fills for the subframe bushings, and hard poly diff bushings, and the car rarely exhibited any wheel hop. Maybe once or twice at the drag strip when I just got things wrong for the level of track prep or whatever, but nothing annoying on a regular basis.

[blarf]

I'm gonna guess there's not a shelf DS kit for that motor (or if there is it prob costs what Jon paid for the motor...) but its not a bad idea. Maybe homebrew it.

Like I said before you could take some slices on that stock sump and weld up plates - I wasnt thinking full dry sump but that's certainly a possibility... Cut the sump down, plate it off and add fittings...

As gear grinder has said the cost of a dry sump kit makes this a no go in an ideal world that would probably solve all the issues. Vac do a S65 kit which is 7k I imagine an S85 would be more

I was looking at the KMS kit which is probably in the same price range. If you're worried about £7k the S85 probably isn't a great motor. If/when you need to replace VANOS bits you're easily looking at $5-$10k in parts.