Timing Job M62TU 02 540

[Mannyf540]

Alright fellas, as you guys know I recently did my timing job using the GAS tools.

I’m dumbfounded as intermittently I get bank 1 over advanced code. I assume mechanicals it’s fine, since all marks lined up properly on the crank and cam lobes. I assume that the timing wheel on bank one is just a smudge off, like I stated I used the GAS, so they should be dead on!!

Could it be a bad cam sensor, which I doubt as I replaced it with genuine BMW sensor. Perhaps it did not tighten enough and moved just a bit, as the Vanos gear like to jump around a bit, for the same reason I turned the engine a few times to allow the timing system to settle before I timed it.

Thoughts gentlemen.... I probably have to go back in there and make the proper adjustment to that wheel on bank 1. Still dumbfounded as I followed protocol to the T. Just bank 1. It runs like a beast!! No other codes present...
Thanks for the feedback fellas!

[JimLev]

Did you turn the engine over by hand a few times AFTER you did the timing?
I doubt it's the cam sensor or vanos solenoid, trigger wheel must be slightly off.
Pretty sure GG had mentioned somewhere that it was easy to mess up the trigger wheel settings using the GAS tools if you weren't paying attention to what you were doing.

[dannyzabolotny]

Sounds like your trigger wheel is off a bit. Even with the GAS tools it’s possible to be slightly off. Graham and I recently re-timed a 540i/6 that had a P0011 and P0021 code, no codes afterwards. Sometimes that’s what you have to do.

[geargrinder]

Sir Scottie of Ducati has similar problem, we're slated to re-time his car real soon - he seems to be waiting until its cold as balls so that we can freeze our fingers off instead of doing it in nice weather.

Srsly yeah it does seem being a little off can show up like this - intermittently tossing a code... I suspect it has to do with it being close-enough most of the time but then periodically in on/off throttle transitions the chain slack momentarily puts that shutter just barely out of spec and it throws the code. There've been plenty of examples of owners finding this issue before.

FWIW same Scottie person previously had issue where his shutter was inadvertantly bent a little and causing codes, and opening up it was easily spotted and fixed... if you were a little heavy handed w/ VC replacement you can surprisingly bend them I guess...

Some people don't get the GAS tool orientation too because its NOT "mirror symmetrical"... I made up a pixor for another person... lemme try and find it...

OK here ya go Manfred - Lookit that purty pitcher what I made! Is that the way you used the jiggers?

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...0#post30013260

[BimmerBreaker]

Out of curiosity, did you have your VANOS rebuilt while doing the guides?

[scottieducati]

I did... but think my issue is down to the tensioner not fully seating in the upper timing civet threaded bore due to PC overspray. Then corrected it after timing, have had the coded since. Oddly the codesspecifically state only at startup.


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[geargrinder]

Yeah thats a plausible scenario... maybe tensioner isn't fully pumped up yet, startup throws a little slack around in the chain for a second, then it settles in but for second the difference in timing is just enough to put it off and throw a code, but really its fine...

[Mannyf540]

Out of curiosity, did you have your VANOS rebuilt while doing the guides?

I sure did, by yours truly!! Mr.DannyZabolotny!

[Mannyf540]

Thank you all so much for your feedback, Jim, Danny, GG, and yes GG that was the orientation that my jiggers had. On the inside of the jiggers they have a half circle that can only align a certain way for them to seat properly!

I’ll drive it like that for a while to see if it goes away. But since day one I’ve gotten that code...

I’ll go back in there if the code continues. It’s also has a delay in starting, I assume the fuel pump relies on signal from the cam sensors, thus the delay... or the aftermarket fuel pump does not play nice with the OEM voltage requirements. Just another factor I can think of...the voltage on the fuel pump seems to vary depending on the fuel requirements according to the specs provided. It’s goes from 12.4 all the way to 14.00 volts.

Regardless I keep on getting the overadvanced code... so I’ll have at it one last round. I’d not bother with it since it runs fantastic, but emissions will not allow it to pass.

[E30User]

As you mentioned, the likelihood of it being a cam sensor issue is really slim, but I'd still try swapping the two sides and see if the code follows to fully rule it out. I had a similar issue after doing my vanos/chain guides/timing stuff, which ended up being a bad sensor. My guess is that it was on its way out, and it finally died after I removed and reinstalled it. Maybe the wires inside were brittle and finally broke when I handled it? I'm not sure if that's possible, but a new one resolved my over advanced code. Overall a simple fix, but it was definitely not a fun one to have right after doing all that stuff for the first time.

[BimmerBreaker]

Almost every TCG job we've done with a VANOS rebuild has needed to be re-timed
Those that haven't had the VANOS rebuilt, haven't had to be re-timed later

Have any of you guys experienced this?

[Mannyf540]

Almost every TCG job we've done with a VANOS rebuild has needed to be re-timed
Those that haven't had the VANOS rebuilt, haven't had to be re-timed later

Have any of you guys experienced this?

Wow very interesting observation!! I’m interested to hear further on this subject!!

[JimLev]

Almost every TCG job we've done with a VANOS rebuild has needed to be re-timed
Those that haven't had the VANOS rebuilt, haven't had to be re-timed later

Have any of you guys experienced this?

No, I've done a number of Vanos rebuilds, didn't have to retime the engines.
The trigger wheel position shouldn't be effected by new o-rings, so it's weird you have to retime the engine later.
How long after the initial job do you get the CEL?

[dannyzabolotny]

In most cases it's immediately, then we just re-time and all is fine. But recently we got a case where the timing code came on after the guy drove the car for a week. Weird that it took that long.

[Mannyf540]

No, I've done a number of Vanos rebuilds, didn't have to retime the engines.
The trigger wheel position shouldn't be effected by new o-rings, so it's weird you have to retime the engine later.
How long after the initial job do you get the CEL?

One factor I can think of, perhaps due to the fact you don’t use the GAS tools, it’s with your method, correct me if I’m wrong but you allow the Vanos to “free flow “ before your final tightening of the Vanos timming wheel. I see you back out your jigs.... losen your Vanos then align once again for good measure... your process stuck to me a lot!

[Mannyf540]

In most cases it's immediately, then we just re-time and all is fine. But recently we got a case where the timing code came on after the guy drove the car for a week. Weird that it took that long.

You retime just the timing wheels right? Mechanically it timed correctly? As far as the cams and crank marks, just The timing wheel is off?

[dannyzabolotny]

You retime just the timing wheels right? Mechanically it timed correctly? As far as the cams and crank marks, just The timing wheel is off?

I do both, because in most cases moving the timing wheel isn't enough... the Vanos has its own movements which makes moving the wheel around by hand a tricky thing to nail down. I've tried it that way many times with no luck so nowadays I just re-time whenever I see the timing codes.

[geargrinder]

On my own car I had no issues w VANOS rebuild but I did the turn through retime thing like 3-4 times before buttoning it up. First couple times there were significant adjustments to make, then they prob woulda been ok but I checked anyway. The IMO keys are 1. MANUAL tensioner tight enough. 2. Chain slack all pulled through to one side (don't let it "rock back" to get it to TDC... if you miss the spot go around again...) And 3. Ensuring the VANOS hub is fully slammed shut.

[JimLev]

^__what he said. Now that I think about it I did your vanos rebuild.

To add to your list....
4) all the plugs out so the engine will turn over easy, no chance of a cyl on compression stroke trying to push the piston down.
5) pass side of the chain tensioner physically tied to the engine to keep it tight when the tensioner block is removed before you install the upper cover and the tensioner piston.

[geargrinder]

Good ones. I take it for granted having plugs out for cam timing operations but since you mentioned it yeah I know some guys poo poo bothering with it. (foolish IMO. But strokes for folks i guess. )

[Mannyf540]

May I add, is there such a thing as passenger tensioner physically tied too tight ?
I believe you can over tighten, it should not be too tight.

[JimLev]

May I add, is there such a thing as passenger tensioner physically tied too tight ?
I believe you can over tighten, it should not be too tight.

You just need to keep tension on the guide so the chain doesn't flop around when you remove the tensioner block that comes with the timing kit.

Or are you asking about the finger adjustment screw that's part of the tensioner block? There is an inch LB torque spec, I don't recall what it is. I just use 2 fingers to get it tight as 2 fingers can.

[Mannyf540]

Well the code comes and gos, so I’ll be back in there to do this lovely job.
Third time is a charm! I love how it runs!! Totally different beast ! I can imagine with some juice. I’ll have to swing by Albuquerque!!
To get the skunkworks nos setup !!
Danny did a mighty fine job with the Vanos as well! Then with the Active Autowerks time it really shines. Just will have to put the finishing touches! And get the correct geometry on the suspension... springs are not seated properly!

That’s another story to add the 540 chapter! I’ve done the whole the suspension front and back, just the front is not sitting correctly!
Thank you all fine gentlemen for the support!

[geargrinder]

Or are you asking about the finger adjustment screw that's part of the tensioner block? There is an inch LB torque spec, I don't recall what it is. I just use 2 fingers to get it tight as 2 fingers can.

Yeah, and that is actually pretty tight. I think some guys might under-tighten this so it allows a little slack to not pull all the way through. I remember turning 360 and then finding I could suddenly get a little more tension on the adjuster. That's a good practice maybe, when you put the tensioner on, get it as tight as you can (by fingers only) then turn 2 x 360 with a couple checks to see if you can get a little more out of it. If it is true that the "slightly mistimed comes from a little slack that didn't get fully pulled through" then this is a way to help mitigate that...

[BimmerBreaker]

Yeah I think our issue may have been not re-tensioning the tensioner after rotating the engine over as I don't remember doing that. I think we thought it'd be tight enough. But now it makes total sense, as you rotate the engine over, its almost more important that the chain tensions properly, so that when the timing is "set" it's set with the chain at the correct tension. As otherwise, we set it with the chain slack, then as soon as the engine moves and tensions the chain, it pulls it out of timing just enough.

We have a TCG job in the shop now (check out the timing cover below, chain caught the lip of the part near the crank seal and ripped a huge chunk off) so we will ensure we tighten, then re-tighten, that tensioner once we put this engine back together