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Thread: Failing Bendix or something else?

  1. #1
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    Failing Bendix or something else?

    My daily driver which sees a lot of miles has an odd starting quirk. If I turn the ignition key from any position to 3 too quickly, the starter does not engage with the flywheel, it either does nothing or it spins without the Bendix operating and engaging the starter gear with the flywheel. If I pause for a full second or so at the 2 position before attempting to crank the engine, it cranks over fine (pretty much every time, sometimes not). I it didn't act differently depending on the time the key is in position two, I would assume the Bendix is bad, the battery is weak, the starter is weak or it just needs to be cleaned and greased but the way it behaves differently is odd. Frankly I thought it was just an quirk of the car (I partly blamed it on EWS which is a great catch all excuse for anything not working) and didn't really care except for the rare occasion my wife drives the car. Now that I have a second e36 of the same vintage which does not do the same thing, I realize something is not right. As it stands it doesn't impact me much but I don't want it to get worse and leave me stranded. It could be a voltage issue but I don't see how the time spent in position 2 would relate to this. Similarly, if the ignition switch was going bad, I doubt it would do be all or nothing but not spin the starter without the Bendix engaging. Thoughts anyone? Last week the car sat for about 4 days (very rare) and the issue was a bit more prominent as in even after pausing in position 2 the starter didn't engaging with the flywheel, this could be a low voltage issue or bad contact somewhere.

  2. #2
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    Good thought process, sounds like the starter is at the end. You will want to replace it before it leaves you stranded.

    The starter is not a fun job, it's a lot easier with a 5spd because the bolts are accessible underneath or above. With an automatic you cannot get to the bolts from underneath, I did my starter when I did my auto trans because i would be crazy not to.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdavid View Post
    it either does nothing or it spins without the Bendix operating and engaging the starter gear with the flywheel.
    You don't have a Bendix starter. END OF.

    (Don't know why this fundamental is missed so often on this site)

    You have a pre-engaged.

    The cheap solenoid that unscrews from the starter may just need the old thick grease cleaning out for the slug the electromagnet pull and nothing more.

    ADDITIONALLY!!
    The starter solenoid is only powered I position 3 so the amount of time you spend in position 2 is totally irrelevant to the starter and solenoid, so maybe you are indicating s dodgy switch or placebo effect
    Last edited by E36328Coupe; 10-13-2018 at 08:58 AM.
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  4. #4
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    Thank you, I had no idea it was a pre engaged starter. I assure you that it does behave differently depending on how long it is position 2 prior to 3. It doesn't make any sense to me either how this is a starter issue but that is the behavior. Ithe could be something in the ignition switch but the behavior is very consistent.

  5. #5
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    For your starter motor to spin without engaging means the solenoid is bad, plain and simple. Replace the whole unit, because the solenoid won't be cheap and the brushes in the starter motor will be very worn. I got an aftermarket new unit (bosch knock off), I put acid etch primer on the metal body parts because it was not coated or plated and I knew it would rust.

    Be sure to read up on how to do it, there are guides out there. If you attack it from the top you will need an e-torx with a bend in it, others have been creative and have taken a socket and welded a rod to it in the shape needed to access the bolts. Be sure to spray the bolts liberally as soon as you have access to them because they like to seize in place. The only problem I see with the socket/rod method is that the bolt is rather long and the socket will add too much length.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdavid View Post
    Thank you, I had no idea it was a pre engaged starter. I assure you that it does behave differently depending on how long it is position 2 prior to 3. It doesn't make any sense to me either how this is a starter issue but that is the behavior. Ithe could be something in the ignition switch but the behavior is very consistent.
    I have exact same situation. Not making sense to me either . Time to swap the starter I suppose - just pissed since I just put the motor in this July.

    Otherwise the 100k motor I out in is running nice $500 it was worth the effort.

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksone30 View Post
    I have exact same situation. Not making sense to me either . Time to swap the starter I suppose - just pissed since I just put the motor in this July.

    Otherwise the 100k motor I out in is running nice $500 it was worth the effort.

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    Not suppose,listen to the guy that knew what kind of starter it was and how it works!
    FYI My 328 is on orginal pre-engaged starter at 231,000 mile, Wifes E36 on original pre-engaged at 180,000, Opel Mant aon original pre-engaged at 250,000+ miles though I have changed the pinion as it went and the solenoid.


    Sometimes you swap out reliable tried and tested components for unproven, unlasting ones if you just change stuff without thought or understanding.

    I keep cars for decades so I see patterns that those that work on ther folks cars or sell them every 5 minutes do not have opportunity to see or notice.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric93se View Post
    For your starter motor to spin without engaging means the solenoid is bad, plain and simple. Replace the whole unit, because the solenoid won't be cheap and the brushes in the starter motor will be very worn. I got an aftermarket new unit (bosch knock off), I put acid etch primer on the metal body parts because it was not coated or plated and I knew it would rust.
    A load of very unproven assumptions that 40 years of experience has seen to be false there.


    Plus the solenoid is not necessarily bad, it can easily be old thick grease on the slug as already stated above your post.
    It can also be a bad earth,
    It can also be a bad steering lock switch, which the OPs insistence that it behaves differently depending on how long in position 2 would back up - old burnt contacts moving in the plastic.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    Not suppose,listen to the guy that knew what kind of starter it was and how it works!
    FYI My 328 is on orginal pre-engaged starter at 231,000 mile, Wifes E36 on original pre-engaged at 180,000, Opel Mant aon original pre-engaged at 250,000+ miles though I have changed the pinion as it went and the solenoid.


    Sometimes you swap out reliable tried and tested components for unproven, unlasting ones if you just change stuff without thought or understanding.

    I keep cars for decades so I see patterns that those that work on ther folks cars or sell them every 5 minutes do not have opportunity to see or notice.
    I had a similar issue on a 1993 eagle vision . Randomly would not engage fully.

    Removal and cleaning of the solenoid with a tiny bit of grease and it lasted from 1999 until the engine died in 2007. It was just dirty and I was strapped for cash at the time.

    The e36 is a bitch to change the starter . Dont know what to do now. Remove and clean or buy a new one.

    For my VERT $$ not the issue just want to do the right thing at this moment. Pulling the intake manifold is quite a bit of work. Not to mention the hard to get at bolt on the starter.

    Just have to decide soon.

    Screwing with the Toneau motor cover today.
    Another PIA .

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdavid View Post
    Thank you, I had no idea it was a pre engaged starter. I assure you that it does behave differently depending on how long it is position 2 prior to 3. It doesn't make any sense to me either how this is a starter issue but that is the behavior. Ithe could be something in the ignition switch but the behavior is very consistent.
    Let me tell you a couple of facts and then a story.
    • The solenoid is just a fancy relay, it does 2 things:
    • 1 Connects the battery lead to the starter motor like a normal relay
    • 2 AND the lump of iron the magnetic coil pulls also pulls a "lever" that slides the pinion (cog) into the flywheel just before spinning the motor, hence pre-engaged
    • At position 2 the ignition switch has not altered the starter motor's world at all, all that changes is if you get to position 3 the solenoid is powered to do the above. So if the use of the key really makes a difference suspect the switch


    Now back in the day of the Manta I had an intermittent start problem like you, except how I used the switch never made a difference to whether it started or not.
    What did make a difference was if I had just charged the battery it always started, so I thought is the problem the ignition switch not flowing enough current, old switches are known to burn out on those cars.
    So to test the current Idea I took the spade terminal wire off the starter that triggers the solenoid and then touched a new wire to a good live and the car started every time, so it did look like the switch.

    So I ran the car like that for a week because I was waiting for weekend and I would probably have piggy backed a small normal relay off the ignition switch wire and take power from the battery to increase the current available and lower the load on the ignition switch whether I had a spare of it or not (old cars)


    During the course of the week I noticed a puff of smoke from the solenoid a couple of times, so as two screw mounting on there I replaced it with one off the pile and the problem is still solved on same starter near 15 - 20 years later.

    Now if your switch has terminals on the rear you could bridge live to position 3 to test if it is the switch internals, though I think it unlikely because IIRC there is a relay in between that and the starter.

    OK the only difference in hovering in position 2 is you have given the car longer to read the transducer in the KEY for EWS - now I think this would only give you a start / not-start situation BUT it would not hurt to shake your key and see if it rattles or try the spare key. I still think this is a placebo though, but if you have a spare free to try.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksone30 View Post
    The e36 is a bitch to change the starter . Dont know what to do now. Remove and clean or buy a new one.

    For my VERT $$ not the issue just want to do the right thing at this moment. Pulling the intake manifold is quite a bit of work. Not to mention the hard to get at bolt on the starter.
    On the E46 M3 I removed the reinforcement plate, undid the FCAB swung the arm over and dropped it out the bottom. Does TIS say top only
    Last edited by E36328Coupe; 10-14-2018 at 08:23 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    Let me tell you a couple of facts and then a story.
    • The solenoid is just a fancy relay, it does 2 things:
    • 1 Connects the battery lead to the starter motor like a normal relay
    • 2 AND the lump of iron the magnetic coil pulls also pulls a "lever" that slides the pinion (cog) into the flywheel just before spinning the motor, hence pre-engaged
    • At position 2 the ignition switch has not altered the starter motor's world at all, all that changes is if you get to position 3 the solenoid is powered to do the above. So if the use of the key really makes a difference suspect the switch


    Now back in the day of the Manta I had an intermittent start problem like you, except how I used the switch never made a difference to whether it started or not.
    What did make a difference was if I had just charged the battery it always started, so I thought is the problem the ignition switch not flowing enough current, old switches are known to burn out on those cars.
    So to test the current Idea I took the spade terminal wire off the starter that triggers the solenoid and then touched a new wire to a good live and the car started every time, so it did look like the switch.

    So I ran the car like that for a week because I was waiting for weekend and I would probably have piggy backed a small normal relay off the ignition switch wire and take power from the battery to increase the current available and lower the load on the ignition switch whether I had a spare of it or not (old cars)


    During the course of the week I noticed a puff of smoke from the solenoid a couple of times, so as two screw mounting on there I replaced it with one off the pile and the problem is still solved on same starter near 15 - 20 years later.

    Now if your switch has terminals on the rear you could bridge live to position 3 to test if it is the switch internals, though I think it unlikely because IIRC there is a relay in between that and the starter.

    OK the only difference in hovering in position 2 is you have given the car longer to read the transducer in the KEY for EWS - now I think this would only give you a start / not-start situation BUT it would not hurt to shake your key and see if it rattles or try the spare key. I still think this is a placebo though, but if you have a spare free to try.

    - - - Updated - - -

    On the E46 M3 I removed the reinforcement plate, undid the FCAB swung the arm over and dropped it out the bottom. Does TIS say top only
    But that is for 5 speed? I have an auto

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacksone30 View Post
    But that is for 5 speed? I have an auto

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    And why is that relevant
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by E36328Coupe View Post
    And why is that relevant
    I think there is more room on a 5 speed to get at the starter from the bottom is why I ask .
    True or not ?

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  13. #13
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    Thanks for the discussion and ideas on the matter. I noticed that by habit, when I start the car I rotate the key to position 2, reposition my finger and thumb and then twist to crank, which it does every time. When I go all in one motion, it doesn't crank so I must be a connection in the ignition switch that is subtly affected by how I'm holding the key (I still don't know why I'm hearing a whirring noise though). I only have one key for the car, so trying another is not an option without significant hassle.
    Last edited by gdavid; 10-15-2018 at 03:54 PM.

  14. #14
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    If the whirring is a spinning starter then there can be no simple correlation because there are relays in between and only one wire to trigger, unless it is somehow a cleaner connection inducing a sharper rise in field, which does not make sense with relays in between
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