P0011 code

[kouks]

^Yes to both of you. Understand the VANOS movement, just wondering if it was normal during the rebuild. VANOS were pressed as you stated Jim. Neither VANOS could be rotated by hand after the pressing, just Bank 1 seems to be easier than 2. Almost got it back together, but off on another trip. I’ve convinced myself this is not a timing issue.

Even if both Vanos went bad, the engine would still run, just with less power. At the same time it wouldn’t start bad, instantly then run great for a week, then run bad instantly again. When I took it apart everything was lined up perfectly and the pain I’ve taken again to do this it’s lined up perfect again. This isn’t brain surgery and I’ve done this several times before, just not with VANOS.

Replaced both CPS with OEM ones, hope that does the trick.

[kouks]

I'm about ready to throw a stick of dynamite in this thing...

So when I took it apart, the timing was still perfect, and it was running rough at idle and throwing a p0011 code. Now I'm certain the timing is perfect again, and it's running rough at idle and throwing a P0021 code, even with two new CPS.

Idles at about 500 rpm instead of the 700-800. Now getting a P0021 code. Running it at about 900 rpm and above it runs fine. At about 2-2500 rpm, normal driving rpm, runs perfect. At higher rpms sounds great. Ran it up to 5000 rpm and nice and smooth. Even slapping down the gas it responds immediately and would run to 5000 smoothly and quickly.

Talked with AquilaBMW and we surmised vacuum leak. INPA will not talk with DME so can't see every code, just OBD II reader.

Previously it ran rough and while accelerating the engine it would run like it was misfiring on a cylinder. Not the case this time and not running as rough at idle.

Cliff notes:

1. p0011 code
2. Open up and sure enough timing guide failure
3. Fixed, including VANOS rebuild. idled rough at start up, shut it down, check for all electrical and vacuum connections, and all were good
4. Started again, idled rough, shut it down, thought I needed to open it back up.
5. Son tried it a third time, started perfect and idled perfect (see video above).
6. Son drove it for about 5 days with no issues, drove very well.
7. Driving to school son blows rear tire, drives it at about 15 mph and 100 yards to the parking lot.
8. Towed to tire shop, after pickup, son says it drove fine when he was driving and accelerating, but very bad at lights and stop signs. Coded p0011. Parked it.
9. Opened it up again, found timing to be perfectly lined up
10. Removed the VANOS to recheck them, pressed Bank 1 VANOS again since I found some clearance between piston and frame
11. Put it back together, took my time, over 4 hours of setting, spinning, setting again, until I was sure it was perfect. Two new CPS.
12. Started and runs rough idle again. See description above.

Any advice or ideas are welcome.

[f355spider]

Similar thing happened to me about 10k miles after TCG replacement and Vanos rebuild (idle was fine and ran great, but had the annoying code). The original guy who did the work was super busy so I took it to a local indy that checked the trigger wheel and a few other things and said it was likely a bad vanos. I ordered a rebuilt one from mr vanos and they installed an retimed the engine, and it has been perfect ever since.

[purplecty]

Any chance it can be the vanos solenoid on that bank? I don't think a vacuum leak will trigger a timing code...

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[kouks]

Similar thing happened to me about 10k miles after TCG replacement and Vanos rebuild (idle was fine and ran great, but had the annoying code). The original guy who did the work was super busy so I took it to a local indy that checked the trigger wheel and a few other things and said it was likely a bad vanos. I ordered a rebuilt one from mr vanos and they installed an retimed the engine, and it has been perfect ever since.

If it ran fine I wouldn't care too much, but it runs bad at idle, and low idle usually means vacuum. I'll also be checking fuel pressure.

[kouks]

Any chance it can be the vanos solenoid on that bank? I don't think a vacuum leak will trigger a timing code...

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I know, that's what is confusing, if everything lines up perfect I don't know why I'd get a timing code, and if the VANOS were a bad rebuild, then it would just not have enough power, but it would run OK. It runs bad. And at 500 rpm idle its not right.

[purplecty]

I know, that's what is confusing, if everything lines up perfect I don't know why I'd get a timing code, and if the VANOS were a bad rebuild, then it would just not have enough power, but it would run OK. It runs bad. And at 500 rpm idle its not right.

But what about the solenoid? Im pretty sure that would make it run bad as well and trigger the same error possibly...

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[kouks]

But what about the solenoid? Im pretty sure that would make it run bad as well and trigger the same error possibly...

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The solenoid is turned off by the DME when the p0011 or p0021 code appears, so that is not affecting the engine. The solenoid, when all is working well, will only control the VANOS when the rpm is above 1500. Below 1500 it does nothing and the VANOS is in the default position and not affecting valve timing.

[JimLev]

A vanos engine should idle at 550 RPM.....that's with the AC off.
Sounds like you have some other issues besides timing.
More later, we're on vacation.

[purplecty]

The solenoid is turned off by the DME when the p0011 or p0021 code appears, so that is not affecting the engine. The solenoid, when all is working well, will only control the VANOS when the rpm is above 1500. Below 1500 it does nothing and the VANOS is in the default position and not affecting valve timing.

Oh ok I'm pretty sure a friend of mine replaced his vanos solenoid recently due to an oil seeping through the solenoids issue. He had put a used one in which triggered the timing error on that bank and the 540 ran like crap and swapped in another one and it brought the idle back to normal and ran great again. Mine idles at 590 rpm... Worth a shot to swap the solenoids from bank to bank and see if the codes follows...

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[geargrinder]

The solenoid is turned off by the DME when the p0011 or p0021 code appears, so that is not affecting the engine. The solenoid, when all is working well, will only control the VANOS when the rpm is above 1500. Below 1500 it does nothing and the VANOS is in the default position and not affecting valve timing.

Agreed... even higher really - 'real' VANOS action doesn't kick in until up around the 2200-2400 area. And its cutting out by 4k.

[TheAngryBear]

The solenoid is turned off by the DME when the p0011 or p0021 code appears, so that is not affecting the engine. The solenoid, when all is working well, will only control the VANOS when the rpm is above 1500. Below 1500 it does nothing and the VANOS is in the default position and not affecting valve timing.

Agreed but at least one member (bobdmac post 391 in https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...806173?page=40) had issues when it wasn’t working well, including rough idle and noises. Not saying it is but definitely saying don’t discount the possibility. Worth at least the switch to see if it is affected by the switch.


2001 750iL DD74441
Stock

RIP: 2003 540iA Sport GS56111
H&R front springs, Ultimate Cup Holder, Euro Dash & Armrest, Grom, BavSound Stage1

[kouks]

Purple and AngryBear,

Following your advice, my son and I went to swap out the solenoids. Bank 2 went fine, but when we tried to remove Bank 1, it remained stuck in its cylinder. Unscrewed fine, but seems like the solenoid piston is jammed in there. Tried everything short of damaging the upper timing cover, and nothing. So I'm in the process of removing all the covers and removing the VANOS...again...and try to remove the solenoid that way. If that wont work, I'll need to remove and replace the Oil Regulator fitting that the solenoid fits into, and get another one. If anyone has one sitting around in undamaged condition please let me know, they're $153 online. So, yes, if the solenoid is jammed then obviously that would cause problems.

So I'm taking it apart and retiming it a third time, and ordering new solenoids too. The solenoid idea does sound plausible. In the Cliff notes above, you can read where the engine was running rough, all of a sudden decided to run great, then decided to run rough again, so not a timing issue, its an electrical problem.

[JimLev]

Not sure about the exact part your looking for, if it's the distribution unit that the vanos solenoid screws into I have new ones for both sides.

[purplecty]

Are you using the deep socket "special tool" to remove them?

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[kouks]

^ Yep, have that tool.

- - - Updated - - -

Not sure about the exact part your looking for, if it's the distribution unit that the vanos solenoid screws into I have new ones for both sides.

PM sent

[kouks]

Found the cause of my problems, and its not good.

I could not remove the Bank 1 solenoid for some reason, so I went all in again and removed the valve cover and upper timing cover...again...to get to the solenoid. It still would not budge and ended up removing the VANOS oil regulator housing. It is well jammed into the housing. Inspecting further, I found the first sealing ring on the intake cam had broken. After further inspecting, I found a part of the intake cam that the rings are installed on was cracked and missing. I remember Bank 1 was difficult to remove when I first did this job and needed a rubber mallet to convince it to come off. The instructions on the TIS and Besian both describe that a rubber mallet may be needed to remove the oil regulator. I am certain I did not hit it hard, actually, I was surprised that with the first light tap it came loose. I also had no issues with the sealing rings going on, they fit as I expected with no force required. I've done square sealing rings before, especially in the 5hp24 trans, so no big deal.









Now it appears I need a new Bank 1 intake camshaft. If anyone has a M62TU in the parts bin, I'll take the intake cam from Bank 1. Does anyone know how this type of failure could happen, I'm not a professional mechanic, but it sure looks like abuse, and not metal failure, especially on the cams.

I know someone was in this engine before, recently. The VCG and upper timing cover gaskets were nearly new when I first removed them. They did not do the chain guides, those were original, but there was some top end work. Now I'm contemplating pulling both heads and having them as well as all the valves inspected. I know that's drastic, but I'm getting tired of putting it together and taking it apart.

I'd like some opinions on this, I'm not afraid of the work, I've done heads on an M62 before. The other thing that makes me suspect is that during one of the runs with the car in the garage on jacks, the coolant started boiling over. It could just be trapped air and it needs bleeding with all this work on it, but boiling coolant is a sign of a busted HG. Prior to this work, the car drove very well and did not loose coolant, so its got that going for it. I also did not find any evidence that someone use stop-leak or other additives to hide a bad HG. The coolant I drained this time around is not dirty with no oil. There is a little bit of some petroleum sheen on it, but that could be from the coolant running over the engine parts before going into the pan.

On the plus side, I found all the cams were spot on when I placed the timing blocks back on, so at least my timing job was good. Back to square 1.

[purplecty]

That's a huge bummer! I think something similar happened to Nick on his X5...

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[geargrinder]

Man what a bummer. I dont want to part w my spare cams at moment... i know where theres an engine in a dead car but pulling the cams is unfortunately a bit of work... Even if you can do so "pseudo destructively" aka not care about screwing up timing etc.

[kouks]

I'll be visiting the local JY tomorrow. I think I saw a few TU engines in 740s last time I visited.

[AquilaBMW]

WOW! Bummer there buddy. Hopefully, you found the issue, but it sucks that this could be what it is. The codes you were getting do make more sense now though.

[JimLev]

That's unfortunate. Hard to see from your pic (bad internet connection where I'm at) is it just the rings that are busted or the rings and the ends of the cam where the rings fit into?
I replied to your PM.

[kouks]

Well, went to the local JY and got me

2 valve covers
2 VANOS gears
2 intake camshafts
2 VANOS Oil regulators
2 Upper timing covers

$76

The engine I took them from was obviously a timing guide failure. The valves may have impacted the pistons on Bank 2, the intake cam center screw was already loose, but the valve cover and upper timing cover were on well, so it came loose itself.

[purplecty]

Well, went to the local JY and got me

2 valve covers
2 VANOS gears
2 intake camshafts
2 VANOS Oil regulators
2 Upper timing covers

$76

The engine I took them from was obviously a timing guide failure. The valves may have impacted the pistons on Bank 2, the intake cam center screw was already loose, but the valve cover and upper timing cover were on well, so it came loose itself.

Great pickup! What year did it all come out of? You didn't grab the solenoids? From Dr. VANOS Website: BMW made a design change to coat these with Teflon to prevent scoring starting in 9/99. If you have an early model without the Teflon coated Distribution Pieces it is highly recommended to replace them with the updated version even if there is no scoring. Here is what my 3.99 looked like at around 220k when I did my guides. You can see there is no teflon coating. I replaced mine with brand new updated version. Also attached the updated version to differentiate between the two...



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[kouks]

^ Thanks Purple, yes, it was an 01 740iL and they are coated. I also got the solenoids but I think I’ll get new ones just to have piece of mind.