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Thread: P0011 code

  1. #176
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    Thanks Jim. I’d do same here to double check colors and pins but we are frozen under an ice glaze mess right now.

    Sounds like the CPS side pin nums are good just the color and perhaps the DME pin that’s not right. Conceptually those tests are still all correct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Not really sure what your freq readings mean.
    I stuck pins in the back side of the cam connector to get my readings.
    With my engine at a ~500 idle my meter read 20hz.
    When I measured the voltage at pin 2 it would fluctuate between 5-7 volts DC which yours doesn't. This may be due to either your meter isn't fast enough to catch the voltage swing, OR this is the problem you are chasing.

    With my scope connected to pin 2 this is what I got. (It's a little different than what I posted above, I was just spinning a trigger wheel in front of a spare sensor)
    You can see the scope reads 19.19Hz which agrees close enough with my DVM.

    Attachment 644178

    Thanks for all the info gents, was not able to do anything today due to a memorial service and a wedding (if we also had a baptism I’d complete the circle of life in a day). I’ll get to this next weekend when I get back from my next trip.

    The ground is connected to the MAF, t-stat, and carbon valve, and tested all those grounds with good continuity.

    The 12v at pin 2 does concern me too. I think it should be 5v.

    I also am suspect of the new TIS diagrams. I have a link to the WDS from a guy in the e38 forum and I’ll check that.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  3. #178
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    Kouks:

    Do you have 12V on pin 2 from the DME with the CPS disconnected? If so that would be your problem. It is imperative to test that WITHOUT the CPS plugged in, per my prev post.

    If 12V is coming out of the DME on the sensing pin then the DME sensing transistor is fried (or there's a wiring short before the DME someplace) . Gotta be fundamental with your wiring tests. Even for myself I often draw up a list like that previous post to work through the various states/tests that I should be seeing.

    With the CPS connected and ignition on, that's a whole different story... then Pin 2 will have voltage on it most likely (Jims test seems to say that 5V is "low" and 7V is "high" and that's the signalling range...) But the first thing to test is with stuff disconnected where we know those 3 wires should have fairly simple states to test for.

    As an aside, if the DME is outputting 12V on the sensor wire, I'm not sure if that can burn out a CPS like this... I'd expect not but you never know...

    Re: WDS, yes, its a shame WDS-Planet went up in flames. But I did check another WDS source and it mirrors the TIS info, so... who knows.
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  4. #179
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    GG, it's possible that 12 volts could be coming from the DME with the cam sensor unplugged if there is a pull up resistor in the DME, so without a load from the sensor that wire (pin 2) could drift up to 12 volts.
    I'll check mine later today to see if this is the case.

    That 5-7v range is just what my DVM read which really wasn't fast enough to capture the actual voltage that the scope is displaying.

  5. #180
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    True, Jim.

    Id have thought any pull up was internal to the Hall sensor so that its somewhat 'self contained' and can just be 'watched' by a high input impedance circuit (and that's how most ECU's seem to be these days) but I haven't tested completely. Sorry I cant check mine here, its absolutely brutal at the moment. (And gonna be approaching 50's in 2 days. WTF.) I was gonna pop the hood long enough to just check for wiring color but everythings too crusted over it'll have to wait. I may have a DME on the bench later today, if thats the case I'll try and remember to check the pin (although my bench harness may not supply enough pins for sensor supply... hmmm).
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  6. #181
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    GG:
    I checked the #2 pin on the bank 1 cam connector that goes to the DME.
    With the key off and the sensor unplugged I read 10K ohms reading back into the DME.

    With the key on, engine off (sensor unplugged) I read 12 volts at the connector on pin 2.
    Sure looks like it's pulled up to 12 volts.
    So the cam sensor needs to pull the voltage level down like shown on the scope.

    My DME pin 20 has a brown/gray wire.
    That TIS is probably reporting colors from the cam sensor wire box connector to the DME connector, not the CPS wire colors.
    I checked the 5 spare cam sensors I have, 2 different colors. Not really important. Pin to pin connections are what needs to be verified.

    Kouks, can you borrow a better meter to see if your pin 2 voltage is fluctuating when the engine is running?

  7. #182
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    Good stuff Jim. I'll edit that previous post on testing just in case some future person stumbles on it...

    100% the TIS / WDS colors are going to be the wiring-connector side, sorry, I thought we were all on same page. Yes the CPS vendors I'm sure have their own color code for the sensor pigtail. However Brown/Gray is yet again pretty different. Hmmm. Oh well. Chalk it up to WDS errors I guess. I'm really curious about my car but it remains frigid here...
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    Like you guys verified, I’m getting 12v at pin 2 with the CPS unplugged, key on, engine off. Still traveling so I’ll run and document all electrical test when I get back.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

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    Well, spent about 3 hours checking and rechecking stuff, here's what I got...

    Battery: car off: 12.8V, car on: 14.2v

    Everything OFF, CPS Not connected. Both sides were the same throughout unless otherwise noted.
    Pin 1 - inf ohm, 0v, 0A (Power)
    Pin 2 - inf ohm, 0v, 0A (DME)
    Pin 3 - 3 ohm, 0v, 0A, audible continuity (Ground)

    Ignition ON, Engine OFF, CPS Not connected
    Pin 1 - Inf ohm, 11.8v, inf A
    Pin 2 - Inf ohm, 11.4v, inf A
    Pin 3 - 3 ohm, 0v, 0A

    Ignition ON, Engine Running 500 rpm, CPS Connected
    Pin 1 - inf ohm, 13.8v, inf A
    Pin 2 - inf ohm, 6-7.5v (repeatable), inf A
    Pin 3 - 3 ohm, 0v, 1 mA

    Coil ground lines Bank 1: 7 ohm, Bank 2: 8 ohm

    GG

    Ignition off, DME disconnected:
    CPS connector pin 2 to DME connector X6000 pin 20 (WDS says 21, cars seem to be 20) - resistance: 0 ohms

    Tried a jumper on DME pins 19, 20, 21 and could not get anything but inf ohm. Counted the pin holes and looked at Jim's photos multiple times, still no luck, but since the DME is pulling down voltage on Pin 2 as required, its obviously working. On the WDS I have access to, it shows as 20 for Bank 1 and 19 for Bank 2, however, there is no wiring diagram for Bank 2, only 1.

    CPS connector pin 2 - resistance to ground: infinite ohms
    CPS connector pin 1 to pin 2 - resistance: infinite ohms
    CPS connector pin 1 to pin 3 - resistance: infinite ohms
    CPS connector pin 2 to pin 3 - resistance: infinite ohms

    All were correct, however, on occasion, would get about a 160 ohm reading between pin 1 and 3, then would go to inf. Sometimes would appear on Bank 1, then on Bank 2. Chased my tail on this one. (Bank 1 and 2 power wires do not splice into each other in the e-boxes). Removed coil e-box covers and visually inspected wiring, found a kink in power wire (Pin 1) on Bank 2; cut, spliced, soldered, no change, but in the end both were back at inf ohm and did not change.

    In both e-boxes, the ground and power wires are bundled in several clusters. In other words, if the power wire on Bank 1 is bad, it would affect all the power wires in that bundle (unless it was cut), same as for the ground. There was no issue with the wires physically (except for the kink stated above). No other codes are present, so I assume the rest of the bundles are in good shape. I also assume that if another wire in the bundle was bad, I would get other codes for other systems. The power wire for the Bank 1 CPS is in a bundle with 5 wires, wire 1 goes back to the fuse box and is the power supply wire, wire 2 is the CPS, wire 3 is MAF, wire 4 is E t-stat, wire 5 the carbon filter valve. No codes on those items. Please advise if I'm thinking right.

    Here is the ground diagram, I'll be checking these other items too.

    In the process of trying to find the cause of the large ohm reading between Pin 1 and 3, Inspected MAF power and ground wires, both visually good, Power was inf ohm, ground was audible continuity. (power off)

    Inspected T-stat connector for leak and corrosion damage, looked good, both power and ground were inf ohm (power off)

    Inspected carbon filter valve wiring, all good, both power and ground were inf ohm. (power off)

    Here is the ground diagram...time to check these items out.



    I am starting to think this is an ancillary code caused by something other than the CPS. Also going through WDS on another site and trying to find anything else.

    Open to more suggestions.
    Last edited by kouks; 01-26-2019 at 11:55 PM.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  10. #185
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    Your large reading between 1 and 3 is normal.
    I checked the reading at the CPS connector between pin 1 to pin 3 with the CPS disconnected, key was off, DME connected.
    The resistance started off with a low reading and then climbed up to 2.9 Kohms. If you reverse the meter leads it will do the same. I did this with 2 different meters and got the same readings.
    This is due to a capacitor in the circuit charging up. When you reverse the leads the cap discharges thru the meter and then starts charging up again. Your reading went to inf, probably due to the meter range not set high enough.

    Then I checked pin 2 to ground, I read 47K ohms with one meter and 10K with my other meter.
    Your reading were different, due to you using a different meter.

    The pin 1 to 3 reading were the same on both of my meters, it's just a cap charging up, no semiconductors in that circuit.
    The pin 2 to ground is a different story, 2 goes into the DME which connects to a chip. Different meters have different voltages at the probes (can also be different as you change ohm ranges) so you'll get different readings on different meters, which is normal.

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    Visually checked oil level sensor wiring with no issues noticed and pulled the connector and cleaned with electrical cleaner, no change
    Saw in the wiring diagrams that the oil level sensor and the coolant sensor had related DME lines, so checked and reset the coolant level sensor wiring too, still no change

    Next, replace iggy switch with a spare I have in the garage. Too cold for that today, its down to 45F in the CA high desert with 20 mph winds, Brrrrr...

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  12. #187
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    I doubt the ignition switch will fix it, it has nothing to do with the cam sensor signal, however at this point it's worth a shot.
    More tomorrow.

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    Replaced both CPS bolts with brand new ones to eliminate the possibility of magnetic interference from old bolts, no change

    Replaced the ignition switch since the wiring diagrams show Terminal 15 ground on the same circuit as the Hall Effect sensor (CPS), and I also had two other errors with EWS on terminal 15, no change.

    Connected an oscilloscope and both sides measured a 5V signal, and freq of 14-24 depending on what part of the signal I was looking at. Otherwise both traces on Bank 1 and 2 were identical. There are some spikes on both traces, but that may just be slight vibrations in the probes.

    Bank 1



    Bank 2



    I think this confirms that the sensors are not the issue, but an ancillary electrical problem. One of the only things remaining is the DME.

    I also got a second code, P0440, but that may have been the fuel cap during a recent fill up. Erased it and did not come back yet.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  14. #189
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    Nice scope.
    I don't know about those spikes, they might not be coming from the probe.
    If you still have the scope can you look at the 12 volt connection at the cam sensor pin and then again at the 12 volt post on top of the bank 2 valve cover? Do this using the ground at the cam connector and then again using the chassis as a ground.
    Those spikes (if real) seem like they have enough amplitude to fool the DME.

  15. #190
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    Note the spikes are uniformly spaced. Just greater than 1 division with the sweep setup you have pictured. Very uniform suggesting it is either some kind of cross-talk from another DME control or sensor signal, or, at least if its really 'external' interference, interference from something still generating a periodic signal.

    If you switch that o-scope to AC coupling on the input will it drop out the CPS signal and just leave you with the interference signal? If so you might be able to get a frequency count on it and then extrapolate what it might be coming from.

    Oh and, since you have it in the driveway presumably, how about tossing the same rig on the E38 and seeing what its signals look like?

    Scopes are fun. I just had my old clunker fired up on Friday, had to re-learn a couple things about it... reminded me I should use it more often...
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  16. #191
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    I was wondering if those spike were coming from the 12 volt sources, maybe the alternator.
    GG, checking the e38 was a good recommendation.

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    Didn’t think about the e38, I’ll do that next week. There is no mechanical rhythmic noise that would suggest something creating a mechanical vibration in the engine or timing system. I assume any mechanical disturbance would also create the wave to not be uniform. However, I remember the Indy I took to telling me vibration in the cam can cause the code. If one cam is somehow vibrating, it would transfer the vibration through the chain to the other cam. I’m not getting a code on the Bank 2 cam.

    Ill also do a compression check and see if any cylinder is not acting right, but the engine seems to be smooth.
    Last edited by kouks; 02-27-2019 at 09:43 AM.

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    Well, using the scope, I think I'm finally getting somewhere.

    Hooked up two probes on the DINAN 7 (same engine) and measure the signal of both CPS at the same time. The DINAN also displayed the spikes as the e39, so not the issue. Here is the DINAN square wave from both CPS, Bank one is Yellow.



    Then did the same with the e39, Bank 1 is Yellow again. What struck me after viewing the photos of the waves is that the e39 does not have the same interval between the two banks. Hmmm



    So I copied the waves and placed them on a ppt slide for comparison and here's what I got, the e39 has Bank one about 114 deg retarded from where Bank 1 is on the e38, which obviously is correct since the chain have not been touched on that car. They are not shown on this slide, but I had a grid pattern on the working slide so I could count the distance and degrees between the waves.



    So how can this happen? At first I wondered if I set the wrong position on the Bank 1 trigger wheel. Maybe instead of having the lineup tool standing up (correct for Bank 1), I used the horizontal position instead? But that would mean that the trigger wheel would be advanced, not retarded the approx 114 deg. If I made a similar mistake on bank 2, and used the vertical position of the lineup tool, instead of the correct for Bank 2 horizontal position, Bank 2 would be advanced approx 114 deg ++, so if I retarded Bank 2 using the correct lineup method, the trigger wheels would be lined up correctly.

    So the next step is to place the engine at TDC, put the pin in place, remove both CPS, and visually check the position of the timing wheels through the CPS hole. If it is the Bank 2 trigger wheel that is out so much, then at least this side of the motor is easier to work on.

    If this is true, I'm amazed the engine runs well. My guess is the code disables the fuel efficiencies of the CPS and just fires the fuel injectors and plugs on an engine fail safe mode mechanically, like in the old days.
    Last edited by kouks; 03-06-2019 at 12:56 AM.

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  19. #194
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    Genius work with the scope Bill.

    Just as I suspected (that whole part of the discussion mighta been in PM only?) those spikes line up across banks so almost definitely its a little EMI from coils or injectors firing. If you added a crank-sensor trace to those pictures you could put empirical degrees ATDC on the plots even and work out what it was! But I think you've proven those spikes are AOK.

    Yes the tools can be put on wrong (think I must have suggested this before in this thread?). This is the proper setup.


    But to your point, from what we've seen if you do that wrong (aka use the tools with "mirror symmetry") the timing would be so far off it won't start. Specifically see Doc's thread here which is why I made that little diagram to illustrate the problem more clearly...
    https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...0#post30013260

    Bill maybe you don't know about the 'shutter wheel check holes'? Instead of looking through the sensor hole, those little "mysteriously pointless" torx screws on the upper timing covers are there for exactly this reason. They aren't precision enough to DO the timing with but they are there apparently for a sanity-check without having to tear everything down. I looked for a pic of somebody using them but didn't find one easily... usually you use a drill bit or allen key or something.

    They won't align with cams static I don't think, because of the roll-forward factor on the intake cams. I think you have to turn the intake cam back and lock it w/ the blocks before they can be used. Here's a generic Beisan pic where you can see how that screw hole would line up with the shutter timing hole.

    Last edited by geargrinder; 03-06-2019 at 07:57 AM.
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  20. #195
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    Yes, GG is correct on the trigger wheel hole alignment using the torx bolt hole in the upper cover.
    Actually the bank 2 hole should be pretty close as that cam doesn't need to be turned to get the lock blocks on the back of the cam.
    Bank 1 trigger wheel most likely won't align with the hole, that cam needs to be turned to get the lock blocks on.
    The engine should run with the trigger wheels not set correctly, they are tested when the engine is first started. If they don't pass the test the vanos is disabled, the engine then runs on default DME values.

    Question....
    On the top of the scope I see you have Horz Sweep set to 20ms on both displays and then over to the right D (is that Trigger Delay??) not the same, one is at 1.0000ms and the other is at 12.4000ms.

    One other thing to check......
    Even if the trigger wheels are showing they are in the correct position the vanos may not be if the center part of the vanos isn't fully retarded when the center bolt was torqued. That might be worth checking again just to be sure.
    Last edited by JimLev; 03-06-2019 at 10:41 AM. Reason: added more, and corrected the last sentence.

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    ^Jim,

    This scope has a nice AUTO button and I used that for calibrating the probes and recording the square waves. I used a scope 35 years ago in collage and did not care to read the manual on each switch on this one, and that AUTO button seemed to work real nice. I really have no idea what the delay is.

    As far as the VANOS position, I was pretty diligent on that subject. My knuckles had scrapes from that dang tool slipping off while I was holding pressure and applying initial torque on the center bolt. But it will be checked again.

    Trouble is I gave the GAS tools back to Aquila and our schedules won't meet up for a couple weeks now. Maybe I'll order a set for me anyway, I'm sure the DINAN won't disappoint me in the near future.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by kouks View Post
    ^Jim,

    This scope has a nice AUTO button and I used that for calibrating the probes and recording the square waves. I used a scope 35 years ago in collage and did not care to read the manual on each switch on this one, and that AUTO button seemed to work real nice. I really have no idea what the delay is.

    As far as the VANOS position, I was pretty diligent on that subject. My knuckles had scrapes from that dang tool slipping off while I was holding pressure and applying initial torque on the center bolt. But it will be checked again.

    Trouble is I gave the GAS tools back to Aquila and our schedules won't meet up for a couple weeks now. Maybe I'll order a set for me anyway, I'm sure the DINAN won't disappoint me in the near future.
    You're welcome to grab the tools again. No immediate need for them on my end.



  23. #198
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    Hi Michael.

    Bill, I looked up some info on the scope. D is delay.
    The note about AUTO was interesting.

    image.png

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    Pinned the engine at TDC, pulled both CPS and both those set screws and inspected the trigger wheels. Bank 2 is set fine, it’s Bank 1 that’s way advanced, about 120deg. Even if Bank 1 popped forward like it sometimes does, it would be about 30 deg forward at the most, this was obviously way advanced. I had a spare trigger wheel and could imagine the position of the actual trigger wheels using that as an example.

    Additionally, in the discussion above with the square wave plots, I was wrongfully using the right edge as the start point. Based on engine rotation, it’s the left edge that is the start point, so yes, Bank 1 is too advanced as per the plots.

    Since Bank 1 requires removal of the tensioner, I’ll need the full set of GAS tools again for another complete retime. Be a few weeks before I can do that.

    02 e39 540i Sport (Son), 01 DINAN 7 (Me), 12 e70 X5 x35i (Mrs), 95 e34 525i (Daughter 2), 01 e46 325Ci vert (Daughter 1)

  25. #200
    JimLev's Avatar
    JimLev is offline Artifically Aspirated Moderator
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    When you remove the upper timing cover see if you can keep tension on the pass side guide before you remove the tensioner.
    Let me think about this for a few days to see if there is anyway to accurately set the trigger wheel without having to get the tools again. GG, put on your thinking cap.

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