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Thread: S52 vs S54 driver experience?

  1. #1
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    S52 vs S54 driver experience?

    As posted before - it looks very likely that there will be a Z3M (roadster) in my future. I had assumed that this would be a S52, not S54 - for price reasons and maintenance reasons. But it seems that prices, although different, aren't as much as they were before; likewise, since this wouldn't be a DD, the number of miles that'll be put on it won't - hopefully once the bearings have been taken care of and the subframe reinforced - the actual maintenance might not be all that different.

    But my question is: it is widely claimed that the S54 version is significantly faster - but when I look at the torque curves of the two engines: they really aren't that much different - the real difference is the ability to wind the S54 some 2k RPM higher, hence hang in a higher ratio gear longer, hence providing more torque to the real wheels at a given speed: translating into improved performance. But my quesition is: short of winding it higher - is there much difference btwn the two motors (in terms of delivered performance)? Or are there subtle things like throttle response, given the intake geometry etc?

    Anyone that's driven both: I'd love to hear your comparisons. [yes I've done some searching and reading, but am not really finding the comparisons that I'm looking for :-( ].
    Last edited by gmushial; 10-02-2018 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmushial View Post
    As posted before - it looks very likely that there will be a Z3M (roadster) in my future. I had assumed that this would be a S52, not S54 - for price reasons and maintenance reasons. But it seems that prices, although different, aren't as much as they were before; likewise, since this wouldn't be a DD, the number of miles that'll be put on it won't - hopefully once the bearings have been taken care of and the subframe reenforced - the actual maintenance might not be all that different.

    But my question is: it is widely claimed that the S54 version is significantly faster - but when I look at the torque curves of the two engines: they really aren't that much different - the real difference is the ability to wind the S54 some 2k RPM higher, hence hang in a higher ratio gear longer, hence providing more torque to the real wheels at a given speed: translating into improved performance. But my quesition is: short of winding it higher - is there much difference btwn the two motors (in terms of delivered performance)? Or are there subtle things like throttle response, given the intake geometry etc?

    Anyone that's driven both: I'd love to hear your comparisons. [yes I've done some searching and reading, but am not really finding the comparisons that I'm looking for :-( ].
    Isn't the S54 putting out 90 more hp, that's 1/3 more than the S52, I've not driven the 54, but watch hundreds go by on AX course,and they have a much more muscular sound,I looked into a swap on my 99, and the ls Chevy would be more impressive, but the purists hate it.

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    I'm not the one who knows, but I'll give you some impressions I've got from reading here. You'll get better answers soon. I have a '98m, S52. Torques are somewhat similar in mid-range, but the S54 wins. A poster recently said he tested and found the S52 just as good in some mid-range pulls (like 50-80 mph in 3rd), but once the rpm is up, there's little comparison. Still, I can say the S52 is plenty of fun and I'm happy with it. It's also more reliable and has less maintenance. The S54 has the bearing issue, which has to be addressed if not already done. I also think that they are all (S54) "drive by wire", which some have complained about. I would guess that all agree the S54 is better overall. We like these cars for the performance/fun factor.

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    For just around town use / DD Id get the S52 d/t it being cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain and no real headaches (and 80% of the fun) but if you are just looking for a sunday car and you want the greatest rendition or plan to track / spirited driving Id get the S54. Ive had a few of both and for DD Id chose S52 all day, track use S54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 325bob View Post
    Isn't the S54 putting out 90 more hp, that's 1/3 more than the S52, I've not driven the 54, but watch hundreds go by on AX course,and they have a much more muscular sound,I looked into a swap on my 99, and the ls Chevy would be more impressive, but the purists hate it.
    Yes w/re the hp difference... but hp isn't what moves the car down the road: it's torque. And when one overlays the S52 and S54 torque curves - they really don't differ by much. The real difference I see is: that with the S54, one can hang onto a lower gear to a higher road speed, so at those speeds where one would have had to upshift with the S52, one will has the added torque multiplication of the lower gear with the S54: and hence I expect a perceived "higher" performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zellamay View Post
    I'm not the one who knows, but I'll give you some impressions I've got from reading here. You'll get better answers soon. I have a '98m, S52. Torques are somewhat similar in mid-range, but the S54 wins. A poster recently said he tested and found the S52 just as good in some mid-range pulls (like 50-80 mph in 3rd), but once the rpm is up, there's little comparison. Still, I can say the S52 is plenty of fun and I'm happy with it. It's also more reliable and has less maintenance. The S54 has the bearing issue, which has to be addressed if not already done. I also think that they are all (S54) "drive by wire", which some have complained about. I would guess that all agree the S54 is better overall. We like these cars for the performance/fun factor.
    Basically what I'd been thinking/understanding... though the DBW aspect I hadn't considered with the S54.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by SamGrant951 View Post
    For just around town use / DD Id get the S52 d/t it being cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain and no real headaches (and 80% of the fun) but if you are just looking for a sunday car and you want the greatest rendition or plan to track / spirited driving Id get the S54. Ive had a few of both and for DD Id chose S52 all day, track use S54.
    That's the question I'm trying to answer - and yes I agree... this will be a "sunday" car, or maybe somewhat more, but not my DD. ... when I bought the Z3, it was bought as a Sunday car, but almost 300k miles later it had become my DD, trip, Sunday car... but with a couple other cars in the driveway, I'm suspecting a Z3M won't follow the same path, but in fact be a smiles-per-gallon car. W/re the bearing, subframe, oilpump nut issues: my intent would be to send/ship/drive it to RandyF and have him do all that before I put any real miles on it.

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    I've driven both s52 and s54 coupes on test drives (now own an M54, and also have an M54 powered 3 series).

    The S52, to me, felt like a 'rougher' M54 - similar performance but with a little more urgent power delivery, but overall pretty similar.

    The S54 felt very similar to an M54 below 4k RPM; after that it pulled like hell to redline, completely different feeling.

    I'd go with the S54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brian52555 View Post
    I've driven both s52 and s54 coupes on test drives (now own an M54, and also have an M54 powered 3 series).

    The S52, to me, felt like a 'rougher' M54 - similar performance but with a little more urgent power delivery, but overall pretty similar.

    The S54 felt very similar to an M54 below 4k RPM; after that it pulled like hell to redline, completely different feeling.

    I'd go with the S54.
    The bearing issues you don't see as an issue? Likewise the subframe re-enforcement? ... not to say they are - just looking for input... and thank you.

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    I daily drive an S54. It just turned over 100K miles, and I decided to replace the rod bearings as a preventative measure. I've been doing an oil analysis on every oil change, and it never indicated anything to worry about, but what the heck. The rod bearings that came out showed the slightest amount of wear (consistent with 100K of usage), and none of them had rotated at all (one of the failure symptoms). So I probably could have left them alone.

    As far as the subframe issue, no signs of anything occurring there either.

    So I would conclude that while some cars may have problems with one or both of these issues, it is wrong to paint all of them with a brush that they all have these problems.

    Marty

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    The S54 is miles above the S52

    Power, drivability, throttle response, smoothness

    Get an S54, slap in a 3.23 or 3.46 diff and the sport mode tune and never look back

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    I believe subframe issue can occur to both engine types.

    Mine is s52, and I don't track nor autocross neither. But I still had the issue. And I found it out when I was preparing for the RF reinforcement kit (e.g., paint strip) due to what I thought was a minor trunk separation. While working on it, I noticed the additional welding spots (significantly rusted too). So from what I saw, the separation probably started long before I bought the car too, but it was hidden under the new paint layer. - As for the rusted welds under the paint, I am clueless how they happened with the primer and rubber undercoat...
    Last edited by nevan; 10-02-2018 at 05:31 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyBtoo View Post
    I daily drive an S54. It just turned over 100K miles, and I decided to replace the rod bearings as a preventative measure. I've been doing an oil analysis on every oil change, and it never indicated anything to worry about, but what the heck. The rod bearings that came out showed the slightest amount of wear (consistent with 100K of usage), and none of them had rotated at all (one of the failure symptoms). So I probably could have left them alone.

    As far as the subframe issue, no signs of anything occurring there either.

    So I would conclude that while some cars may have problems with one or both of these issues, it is wrong to paint all of them with a brush that they all have these problems.

    Marty
    Thanks - not trying to broad brush stroke either issue - more trying to learn how often it's actually been a problem. I know my 2.3 had two popped welds and one going - bolted all three, and 200k+ miles later they're holding and no others started. [I personally, from the failures I've seen - believe they have more to do with badly adjusted robotic welding machine than usage, ie, if the welds were flawed to start with, they will fail, independent of engine; but if they are sound - likely they'll never fail]. The problem is: with what frequency?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BimmerBreaker View Post
    The S54 is miles above the S52

    Power, drivability, throttle response, smoothness

    Get an S54, slap in a 3.23 or 3.46 diff and the sport mode tune and never look back
    Care to expand on that: power I assume means - being able to hang onto a lower gear longer given the rev limit, hence more wheel torque at given speed? Drivability? How so? Likewise throttle response and smoothness? How about some more words? ... I'm honestly interested. On the downside: why not the S52?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nevan View Post
    I believe subframe issue can occur to both engine types.

    Mine is s52, and I don't track nor autocross neither. But I still had the issue. And I found it out when I was preparing for the RF reinforcement kit (e.g., paint strip) due to what I thought was a minor trunk separation. While working on it, I noticed the additional welding spots (significantly rusted too). So from what I saw, the separation probably started long before I bought the car too, but it was hidden under the new paint layer. - As for the rusted welds under the paint, I am clueless how they happened with the primer and rubber undercoat...
    The S52 I'm looking at still has all the welds intact... but would likely add the RF reinforcement kit early on.

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    I can't keep anything stock, so I vote for a supercharged S52. I am biased however...

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    In all honesty, to me the major difference between owning an S52 versus an S54 boils down to how many miles you drive it, because the S54 needs a rather expensive valve adjustment every 30,000 miles (the S52 has hydraulic lifters, so no adjustments). Other than that they all have long-term issues with cooling components, VANOS issues, leaning shifters, and many more.

    The last time there was a S52/S54 discussion, Randy Forbes published a set of dyno charts that showed that the S54 had more torque at every RPM than an S52, so most perceived differences come down to the slight difference in gearing; S54 is 3.15, S52 is (I believe) 3.23. So between the gearing and the difference in rev limits you wind up shifting a lot sooner in the S52. But the S54 pulls really strongly all of the way to 7600, if you are of a mind to try it.

    Marty

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    Quote Originally Posted by s8ilver View Post
    I can't keep anything stock, so I vote for a supercharged S52. I am biased however...

    20180519_124949.jpg
    I would love to do that, but in CA I don't believe there are any kits that the overlords approve of... though with a move to OR, that would be one of the benefits of a S52 starting point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyBtoo View Post
    In all honesty, to me the major difference between owning an S52 versus an S54 boils down to how many miles you drive it, because the S54 needs a rather expensive valve adjustment every 30,000 miles (the S52 has hydraulic lifters, so no adjustments). Other than that they all have long-term issues with cooling components, VANOS issues, leaning shifters, and many more.

    The last time there was a S52/S54 discussion, Randy Forbes published a set of dyno charts that showed that the S54 had more torque at every RPM than an S52, so most perceived differences come down to the slight difference in gearing; S54 is 3.15, S52 is (I believe) 3.23. So between the gearing and the difference in rev limits you wind up shifting a lot sooner in the S52. But the S54 pulls really strongly all of the way to 7600, if you are of a mind to try it.

    Marty
    This is in theory going to be a sunday car - but the current Z was bought as such, and turned into a DD, a touring car et al - now coming up on 300k miles... hence the what to do next question. But yes - the S54 has 5% more torque throughout the range - better breathing and slightly more displacement... but I suspect most wouldn't notice it. But as you point out: the fact that one can hang onto a lower gear to a higher rpm, that means for a given speed one is in a lower gear, and hence has a higher torque multiplication [ie, more torque at the rear wheels, presuming one is willing to spin the engine]... but also as you point out: the S54 is more like a high maintenance trophy wife... so it becomes: just how much performance do I want. Though actually, it's more the handling that I'm looking at, in that the M54 3.0 I believe delivers about the same straight-line performance as the S52 ///M... but it sits 2cm higher, and has much lower spring rates and swap bar rates. ... at this point I'll probably to the S52 route, though there is an Elise that's whispering in my ear: "buy me"... but very much thank you for the input.

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    interesting reading.

    driven both.

    bought the S52.

    Very happy.

    YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by crashgordan View Post
    interesting reading.

    driven both.

    bought the S52.

    Very happy.

    YMMV
    Thanks for the input... what decided S52 vs S54 for you?
    Last edited by gmushial; 10-03-2018 at 10:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmushial View Post
    I would love to do that, but in CA I don't believe there are any kits that the overlords approve of... though with a move to OR, that would be one of the benefits of a S52 starting point.
    The Dinan Supercharger is CARB legal and it is my understanding that if you buy a used one Dinan will supply the CARB stickers you need when you get it smog tested.

    I went thru this same debate , fortunately in Los Angeles I was able to find a S52 and a S54 roadster for sale and drove both the same day. If you can find any way to drive both you will have the answer for you. In my experience the difference was all in that last 1500 rpm on the S54. Below that the cars felt VERY similar. I believe the rated output of the two engines is 240hp vs 315hp which is 75 hp not 100 as someone posted. I think the S54 in the M3 sedan is rated at 330 hp - the difference being in the exhaust system.

    I bought an S52 and added the Dinan stage 3 tune (intake, bored out throttle body , and re-mapped tune) which also raised the rev limit to 7000 rpm from 6700. While the power increase was probably 25 or 30hp the car then felt much better pulling strong right to the rev limiter instead of feeling (to me) like it was running out of air somewhere above 6200 rpm before. the tune isn't cheap, seems to me it was about $1700 ten years ago , but is also carb legal. I never regretted getting the S52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gmushial View Post
    I would love to do that, but in CA I don't believe there are any kits that the overlords approve of... though with a move to OR, that would be one of the benefits of a S52 starting point.
    Do you have smog tests after the title transfer? Out here on the coast the car only gets tested on title transfer. You can buy a stock car and have open season on the mods thereafter, so long as you don't make a spectacle of yourself and get caught. But it must be a high bar to get caught--think of all the coal rolling diesel trucks we have up here.
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    Interesting discussion. I know the changeover was years ago, but didn't some car mags do some instrumented testing of S52 vs S54? A quick google search yielded no results.

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    I personally feel that they feel similar around town. The S54 has a more smooth power delivery. Like said above, below 4k they're similar *feeling* but above that the S54 pulls like hell. It doesn't help that the S54 cars are geared terribly from the factory, and no option for the sharper throttle response. But I have a good friend with an S54 that has the "sport mode" tune and a 3.46 rear end. That's a great feeling car.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim95M3 View Post
    I personally feel that they feel similar around town. The S54 has a more smooth power delivery. Like said above, below 4k they're similar *feeling* but above that the S54 pulls like hell. It doesn't help that the S54 cars are geared terribly from the factory, and no option for the sharper throttle response. But I have a good friend with an S54 that has the "sport mode" tune and a 3.46 rear end. That's a great feeling car.
    The S54 doesn't need a tune to turn on Sport mode (which will sharpen the throttle response). Just one wire and a momentary switch to enable it (check Google for how to install it). There use to be a small electronic module someone put together to turn on sport mode as well as the "Sport" light on the dash (not sure if this is still available). I enabled mine with the one wire method (no "Sport" light). In addition to the power difference, you may want to check into the difference with the nannies. Not sure how the S52 works, but my S54 is much less intrusive than my Z3 3.0 was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by melville View Post
    Do you have smog tests after the title transfer? Out here on the coast the car only gets tested on title transfer. You can buy a stock car and have open season on the mods thereafter, so long as you don't make a spectacle of yourself and get caught. But it must be a high bar to get caught--think of all the coal rolling diesel trucks we have up here.
    Granted that Humboldt is definitely a different California than the one that I live in, but your statement about only testing at transfer is just plain wrong. Every couple of years when the registration is renewed I get notified that renewal requires that the car gets a smog test. It is just plugging into the OBD2 port and checking for any alerts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William Turner View Post
    I bought an S52 and added the Dinan stage 3 tune (intake, bored out throttle body , and re-mapped tune) which also raised the rev limit to 7000 rpm from 6700. While the power increase was probably 25 or 30hp the car then felt much better pulling strong right to the rev limiter instead of feeling (to me) like it was running out of air somewhere above 6200 rpm before. the tune isn't cheap, seems to me it was about $1700 ten years ago , but is also carb legal. I never regretted getting the S52.
    There is no easy way to get 30hp out of an S52, definitely not by increasing the redline by merely 300rpm...
    Quote Originally Posted by gmushial View Post
    Care to expand on that: power I assume means - being able to hang onto a lower gear longer given the rev limit, hence more wheel torque at given speed? Drivability? How so? Likewise throttle response and smoothness? How about some more words? ... I'm honestly interested. On the downside: why not the S52?
    There's nothing wrong with the S52 IF you've only driven the S52. After having daily driven the S54 for as long as I have, the S52 - while a great engine for what it is - is not anywhere close to what the S54 is.

    The power just means that anywhere, everywhere, you feel the power. Above 2k rpms at least... S54's are a slouch if you lug them at all. The S52 has some low-down torque, but it flattens out very quickly until it is out of steam at the top of the rev range. The S54 has power everywhere. It has low-down torque to get you around town comfortably. It has mid-range power for if you want to pass without shifting gears. And once you touch 4000 or so the engine just wants to rev and rev and rev. I always felt like the S52 was happiest down low, when you redlined it, it would begrudgingly eventually be like "ok, I'll hit redline for you. The S54 is a wild dog you are grabbing by the scruff of the neck trying to contain the raw power as it wants to race towards redline in any kind of spirited driving. It just screams. And the noise. It's intoxicating. S52's sound good, and you can have your cool coding homie set it up to make cool backfire noises on deceleration and whatnot. But the S54 just sounds... amazing. With a good exhaust, and particularly on the Z3M's (E46's are always SUPER raspy...) the exhaust note is perfection to my ears.

    Drivability is just amazing with the S54. The DBW means the gas is always light and easy, which is something I didn't think I'd like, but when I daily drove the S52 for awhile the heavier cable throttle got old pretty quickly in stop and go. It's effortless to drive around town at cruising speeds - the extra torque means you can shift earlier if you want, the higher rev band means you can hang onto gears if you want to.

    Throttle response is incomparable. It is just unfair to compare a car with ITB's to a car with a traditional throttle body setup. The S54, you tap the throttle, it GOES. Immediately. No hesitation, no question. As your foot is pressing the pedal the engine is immediately responding and lunging you forward with full power. Sometimes when I drive I like to just dab the throttle quickly a few times to enjoy how crisp and fast the throttle response is. S52's by comparison, while not laggy or slow, just don't have that immediate engine feedback from pressing the pedal. It takes a moment to "build" power in a sense, as the manifold has to fill with air when you go on throttle. I'm very sensitive to pedal feel and response and power, and I feel the moment the S52 TB opens and then I feel when the "power" kicks in so to speak on the S52. The S54 - just instant.
    I do have sport mode enabled though. The S54 throttle is still precise and quick in the default mode, but the throttle map leaves a LOT to be desired. It makes the engine feel lazy and slow. If you can - drive a Z3M S54 with the sport mode as it truly makes the world of difference. I don't know how anyone could own an S54 Z3M without the sport mode mod...

    On my last point of smoothness... the S54 is silky smooth. The only thing I feel is sometimes the cam "climbs on" around 4k ish, when the engine starts to want to rev to the moon. I think this is partly when VANOS kicks in. Otherwise, if you've driven an M54, the smoothness is very comparable to that. Just with a crap ton more power.
    The S52, go figure, is much closer to an M52. It's a more raw feeling. You almost feel bumps in the powerband and it just feels more "mechanical" overall. The S52 is a tad more rough. "Raw" as some call it. I used to think I preferred that, but the screaming smooth S54 takes the cake imo. The smoothness factors into all the above things too, it helps drivability because the engine is just always happy to be at any rev and its comfortable to drive because of the smoothness and ease of inputs. Maybe a bit weird but I always looked at it this way - the S52 "feels" like one of those dyno curves without any smoothing. Dips, valleys, peaks, troughs. You feel the power sort of waver as it revs, in a way. The S54 is like you added a ton of dyno smoothing to it to where its a totally smooth line. You don't feel any bumps in the power band, you dont feel "that power dead spot at xxx rpm" like on some S52's. It's just even, smooth power everywhere. It's predictable.

    I've daily driven Z3M's almost 8 years now, with the first 5 of those being an S52 and last 3 being an S54, and I daily drove an E36 M3 before I got into Z3M's. So I'm very familiar with the S52 and now the S54 as well. The S52 is NOT a bad engine. But the S54 is slightly better in every way...

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    Quote Originally Posted by khammack View Post
    The S54 doesn't need a tune to turn on Sport mode (which will sharpen the throttle response). Just one wire and a momentary switch to enable it (check Google for how to install it). There use to be a small electronic module someone put together to turn on sport mode as well as the "Sport" light on the dash (not sure if this is still available). I enabled mine with the one wire method (no "Sport" light). In addition to the power difference, you may want to check into the difference with the nannies. Not sure how the S52 works, but my S54 is much less intrusive than my Z3 3.0 was.
    Mine was the one-wire method as well. I never wanted to add the sport light in the gauge cluster because I always drive with sport mode on and don't like lights like that on in the gauge cluster personally.

    I can't comment on traction control but would't be surprised if the M's got a different tune... mine doesn't have DSC or ABS

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
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    Redding Calif
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    My Cars
    1999 Z3 2.5L 5sp
    Quote Originally Posted by melville View Post
    Do you have smog tests after the title transfer? Out here on the coast the car only gets tested on title transfer. You can buy a stock car and have open season on the mods thereafter, so long as you don't make a spectacle of yourself and get caught. But it must be a high bar to get caught--think of all the coal rolling diesel trucks we have up here.
    That would make life easier... but no: we have every 2nd year re-smogging regime - which means passing both tailpipe numbers, and a visual inspection, ie, no CARB parts have been removed, or non-CARB parts added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedconOne View Post
    Interesting discussion. I know the changeover was years ago, but didn't some car mags do some instrumented testing of S52 vs S54? A quick google search yielded no results.
    I had the same experience - not finding any google results [experience, seat of the pants types - though quite a few "these are how the numbers compare" - which I already know]; and likewise here in BF, not finding seat of the pants comparison discussions.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by William Turner View Post
    The Dinan Supercharger is CARB legal and it is my understanding that if you buy a used one Dinan will supply the CARB stickers you need when you get it smog tested.

    I went thru this same debate , fortunately in Los Angeles I was able to find a S52 and a S54 roadster for sale and drove both the same day. If you can find any way to drive both you will have the answer for you. In my experience the difference was all in that last 1500 rpm on the S54. Below that the cars felt VERY similar. I believe the rated output of the two engines is 240hp vs 315hp which is 75 hp not 100 as someone posted. I think the S54 in the M3 sedan is rated at 330 hp - the difference being in the exhaust system.

    I bought an S52 and added the Dinan stage 3 tune (intake, bored out throttle body , and re-mapped tune) which also raised the rev limit to 7000 rpm from 6700. While the power increase was probably 25 or 30hp the car then felt much better pulling strong right to the rev limiter instead of feeling (to me) like it was running out of air somewhere above 6200 rpm before. the tune isn't cheap, seems to me it was about $1700 ten years ago , but is also carb legal. I never regretted getting the S52.

    Frankly you can't loose even if you simply flip a coin.
    Interesting, in that gives me input w/re if I go the S52 route what the next step might be... though the first step will be choosing btwn the two. Again, thanks.

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