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Thread: 850ci on 6 cilinders - And say hi!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
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    E34 M5, Alpina B10, 850i

    850ci on 6 cilinders - And say hi!

    Hi @all,

    First of all; thanks for having me here. I've been taking your advice for weeks (maybe even years), without signing up. But now seems to be the time to contribute and ask some questions.

    Short introduction; I'm from the Netherlands. My garage is kind of piled up with;
    E34 M5 1990
    Alpina B10 3.2 1999
    My wife her BMW 330d convertible (with bigger intercooler, downpipe, remap, etc..)
    BMW F30 320D (daily)

    Anndddddd the 850i 1990

    The last one is the restauration project together with my dad. I'd like to call it a barnfind, while it wasn't forgotten. It has been in a showroom for 10+ years, with only a crank and short run for once a year. Didn't see any road in that time. Lots of things have to be done, but currently the biggest challenge is that it's running on 6 cilinders.

    From this forum I've learned a LOT. And therefor we've already did a lot of things;
    - One fuelpump was dead; replaced it, didnt solve issues

    Swap:
    - MAFs
    - DK motors
    - O2 sensors
    - DME's
    - Coils
    - Relays

    Measured (and checked with resistance values from this board and bentley manual);
    - CID
    - CPS
    - Temp sensors

    Checked:
    - Spark plugs
    - Injectors
    - Wires from DME's to engine
    - Spark plug wires (we've got spark everywhere. Also on the non working side)
    - Rotors and distributor; seems to be alright. We didn't replace yet.

    Might have forgotten something. But the most obvious things we've checked by now I believe.

    Important facts:
    - EML check ligt (couple of seconds) works
    - No EML when running
    - EML will light up when I disconnect one of the DK motors
    - No USA, so no CEL and no Stomp possibility
    - Currently not an ADS interface owner (bought it, it's on its way)
    - Did the trick with resetting; let the plus and minus rest on eachother for a period of time
    - DK motors seem to be in good sync

    Two things are keeping my mind busy at this moment:
    - If I remove the temp sensor ELM (the 3 plug), the engine doesnt respond at all. When I measure the resistance, the values seem to be adjusting to the temp, but still I'm having doubts. Does anyone have the right OHM's (or can tell me if the car should respond to an instant disconnect)? The temp gauge in car doesnt work properly; it can be either that the thermostat is always open (and it doesnt get to temp) or the sensor is broken. Gauge never gets to middle.
    - The new fuel pump died after a couple of days. We've checked all lines, and they're not blocked. The filter is in fueltank is present and alright. The fuel pressure regulators (@ engine bay, on the fuel rail) might be broken, but I'm not sure if this could kill your fuel pump. Any thoughts? And is there any way to check the fuel pressure regulator? I know it should operate on 3BAR, but I'm not confident if this is a 3 BAR fuel pressure, or something else. Any explanation would be highly appreciated.

    Any other thoughts on what might be the reason that this 12 cilinder beast is running on 6; let me know!

    Thanks in advance!
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 09-29-2018 at 07:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    As you have sparks on the dead side (make absolutely sure you have or otherwise we will be going down the wrong path) then you can discount Crankshaft sensor, Cylinder Identification Sensors, Coils and the DME itself.

    So, that really leaves fuel pressure (unless something horrible happened to the timing) - so a fuel-rail pressure test would be next on the list - I don't think you are far off getting that side running again........
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


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  3. #3
    Join Date
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    E34 M5, Alpina B10, 850i
    Quote Originally Posted by Timm View Post
    As you have sparks on the dead side (make absolutely sure you have or otherwise we will be going down the wrong path) then you can discount Crankshaft sensor, Cylinder Identification Sensors, Coils and the DME itself.

    So, that really leaves fuel pressure (unless something horrible happened to the timing) - so a fuel-rail pressure test would be next on the list - I don't think you are far off getting that side running again........
    Thanks Timm. Will check pressure tomorrow. I've got another fuelpump which is ready to be installed. I've to look up the desired PSI/BAR, but I'll find that.

    Can you tell me anything about the temperature sensor (3 plug) not affecting the motor if disconnected? I can't really explain that.


    Btw; you do realise that you own an online 850 bible, right? We've used your site so much already. Just awesome to see the nonprofit knowledge sharing

    Keep you posted and thanks for now

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    Thanks! Fuel-rail pressure is 3 Bar or so - get that at the fuel rail and you should be OK. As far as the temperature sensor - three-wires BROWN/RED, BROWN/RED/YELLOW and BROWN - is used by the DME's for mixture control and not for the temperature gauge which has its own sensor (B21z) which has BLUE/RED and BROWN/YELLOW wires.

    I'm not sure where the sensors are located as I have only ever owned V8's!
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


    My BMW Repair YouTube Channel
    My Current 840ci Sport Individual
    My Current 650ci Sport Individual
    My E31 Repair and Information Website
    My E38 Repair and Information Website
    My E63/E64 Repair and Information Website

    Chase - Heroes to a generation

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
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    Vena, Sweden
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    1992 BMW 850ia
    How about the fuel filters (2)?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    Location
    Belgium
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    My Cars
    1990 850i and 1970 2800C
    Hello Ohnizz, i'm from Belgium ( near Gent ) . So we are almost neighbours ...
    Mine is also a '90 850i , black on black , manual. Bought it a year ago with 140k kilometers.

    My first problem were dragging brakes till full lock . New Master solved it.
    Second problem , it was running on 6 cilinders.... but the "dead side" switched with swapping the MAF's ! so now 2 new MAF's and running OK !

    Now a problem with the supercharger installation…. think mapping related…. as i renewed all ignition items before, to rule out possible small problems with those. ( rotors,caps,wires,plugs,coils,crankshaft sensors,O2 sensors)
    Car is running "fine" till 4500 revs, and from there a flat curve …. o well, it's a hobby and keeps us buzzy

    Just to tell you that one can have a dead bank due the MAF.... as i had. And i even tested the MAF's ( with a air blower) and all seemed OK … both had the same Ohm's and voltages.... very strange. But one did not worked on the car !

    greetz
    Barry

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Stamford, CT
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    840
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    1991 BMW 850i
    Swap the rotors and distributors (and get new ones since your probably don't know how old they are, they are cheap enough). I searched for ever to fix a lost bank last year (2nd time it happened), and skipped the rotor because one of the screws stripped. They were fairly new (less than 2 years) and visually looked good, so I figured they were ok. Pulled it out and it was burnt. The only plus of the problem, since the car was down anyway, figured it was time to seal the intake manifolds since I was putting it off for over a year.
    My Cars - 1991 BMW 850i - mine for fun, 1993 Saab 900c - mine for fun, 2008 Lexus is250 - my daily driver, 2003 Dodge Durango - my wife's, 1994 Acura Legend - gave it to kid

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by peake View Post
    How about the fuel filters (2)?
    First thing I did . New OEM filters. Also replaced every nut, bolt and fuelline that I touched and was likely to be 27years old


    I haven't been able to go on with the 850 yet. Hopefully I'll have time tomorrow to check the pressure @ rail (and FPR).

    Switching rotors/dist is also something I didn't try. Are they interchangeable? *[self reminder] dont forget to number the wiring*
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-01-2018 at 04:12 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnizz View Post
    Switching rotors/dist is also something I didn't try. Are they interchangeable? *[self reminder] dont forget to number the wiring*
    Yes, they are (pretty much everything that looks the same can be swapped. It's basically 2 6 cylinders put together). I did almost everything you did before I checked the rotors (plus seal my intake gaskets). I originally used an allen wrench to get them off/on and stripped one (they are very soft), so use a socket wrench. (I believe the wiring order is on Timm's site).
    My Cars - 1991 BMW 850i - mine for fun, 1993 Saab 900c - mine for fun, 2008 Lexus is250 - my daily driver, 2003 Dodge Durango - my wife's, 1994 Acura Legend - gave it to kid

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    99 840ci Sport Indv

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Vena, Sweden
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    My Cars
    1992 BMW 850ia
    When I got my 850 I did change pretty much the same things as you have, ignition plugs, distributors and cables yes I had sparks on all plugs. BUT when I was finished the engine wouldn't start on one side. Just as yours. I had mixed up the connectors on one side, this is the ones sitting under the oil spill cup and there are 4 of them under there. The connector from the donut on the ignition cable was intermixed with the connector from the sensor sitting by the fly wheel. If they are switched with each other nothing will be broken but the engine will not start on that side.

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    E34 M5, Alpina B10, 850i
    Quote Originally Posted by peake View Post
    When I got my 850 I did change pretty much the same things as you have, ignition plugs, distributors and cables yes I had sparks on all plugs. BUT when I was finished the engine wouldn't start on one side. Just as yours. I had mixed up the connectors on one side, this is the ones sitting under the oil spill cup and there are 4 of them under there. The connector from the donut on the ignition cable was intermixed with the connector from the sensor sitting by the fly wheel. If they are switched with each other nothing will be broken but the engine will not start on that side.
    Thanks for the headsup. Checked them all before and they were good. Especially because they couldn't fit anywhere else, since the cables have a rock solid shape after 27 years


    But.... IT RUNS ON 12 CILINDERS!

    Turns out the "new" fuel pump (used product) died pretty much instantly after starting the car. We've tested it before I put it in the tank and it was good, but after removal it was completely stuck. I dismantled it to see what happend; see pics below.

    Replaced the fuelpump and measured pressure. All good and running on 12 now.. I've been the happiest dude of this forum today
    But mannn, I think the non-running side didn't run for the last 10 years. The smell was unbearable. Smelled like 10 year old dust, oil and somehow like candle suet. After a short ride it became smokeless and ran perfectly.

    Happy times!

    Up to the next challenge; non working right pop up headlight. Motor works (after fixing it, we've tried it on other side), relay is fine (changed it with another one).. but that's alright. Project car life.

    Thanks @ all!


    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-03-2018 at 05:31 PM.

  13. #13
    Join Date
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    E34 M5, Alpina B10, 850i
    Oh and while I'm @ uploading pictures, this is what we're working on:




  14. #14
    Join Date
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    '93 850Ci, '07 X5 4.8
    Nice color... I see a gem in the rough! Enjoy!

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    850,76 2002 &530,84 633
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohnizz View Post
    Thanks for the headsup. Checked them all before and they were good. Especially because they couldn't fit anywhere else, since the cables have a rock solid shape after 27 years


    But.... IT RUNS ON 12 CILINDERS!

    Turns out the "new" fuel pump (used product) died pretty much instantly after starting the car. We've tested it before I put it in the tank and it was good, but after removal it was completely stuck. I dismantled it to see what happend; see pics below.

    Replaced the fuelpump and measured pressure. All good and running on 12 now.. I've been the happiest dude of this forum today
    But mannn, I think the non-running side didn't run for the last 10 years. The smell was unbearable. Smelled like 10 year old dust, oil and somehow like candle suet. After a short ride it became smokeless and ran perfectly.

    Happy times!

    Up to the next challenge; non working right pop up headlight. Motor works (after fixing it, we've tried it on other side), relay is fine (changed it with another one).. but that's alright. Project car life.

    Thanks @ all!


    Why was the pump stuck? I dont see any gunk on it.

  16. #16
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    Excellent news!
    Timm..2007 E64 650i Individual Sport..1999 E31 840ci Individual Sport..ex owner of 2000 E38 740..1999 E38 740i V8 M62..1998 E38 735i V8..1993 E32 730i V8..1988 E28 518i


    My BMW Repair YouTube Channel
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    My Current 650ci Sport Individual
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    Chase - Heroes to a generation

  17. #17
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timm View Post
    Excellent news!
    Aaanndddd.... It's on 6 again. The other pump died too.

    The learning we had; don't buy used products that often break after 28 year

    Ordered 2 new ones (like new, new) and wait for them to arrive.

    Meanwhile we had our APK check (I think it's the MOT in the US and TUV in Germany); just to see what else is formally wrong with the car. Aside from a little play on the steering, the left wiper and old/bad tires, it was all good (no rust, or other bad things). Our comprehensive list of things is a lot longer then those legal requirements. I think that's just awesome.. We've bought it kind of "blind" for the right price and took a gamble. Looks like we did a good job.

    Steering are some rubbers. Have to find the OEM part. Tires will be fixed with the staggered OEM throwing stars which are ready to be refinished

    Will keep you guys posted as soon as the new pumps arrived.

    One short other question; I'm reading a lot of different things about spark plugs. Which one should be used with OEM coils? Is it the Fr 8 LC?

    Thanks all!
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-08-2018 at 04:37 PM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
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    1990 850i and 1970 2800C
    i just installed ( saterday ) a new OEM pumps unit... expensive . But OK, i have now good and equal AF's.

  19. #19
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    The correct low resistance plug to use is the NGK BKR6EK dual ground 1000 ohm plug.
    Last edited by JDP530; 10-08-2018 at 09:44 PM.

  20. #20
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    Short update from our side;

    Fitted new pumps. Running on 12, but a little rough. It doesn't have all of the power(while I did have it before prior to the previous pump killed). Fuel pressure is fine. Time to to get the fuel rail off and inspect/clean. Any ideas on this are welcome. In the process of checking why it ran on 6 we've checked all the spark wires, plugs, coils and distributer caps. Maybe it's a FPR or injectors?

    Meanwhile my dad repaired the burned popup headlight motor @ right side. Replaced diodes and soldered everything back. It was working on left, but didnt do a thing @ right. After a lot of searching (and especially looking at the K39 relay), we figured something else has to be wrong. We took out the relay and dismantled it; it turned out to be a single *416 relay. Probably the previous owner had the right side not working and replaced the relay with a wrong, single, relay. Didn't notice the burned motor electronics.

    Found another one from an 8 fanatic, and for the first time we have this car, it didnt wink!


    And, while I was at the parts-guy, I also got the OEM airboxes (K&N filters were applied) and made them all original again:


    The coil on the driver side was placed on a holder for the airbox. Can anyone give me a clear picture on where this coil should be mounted? There's no bracket left, so I guess it's gone. If I know which one is missing, I can look for the OEM part.

    Thanks for your help all.
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-13-2018 at 04:38 PM.

  21. #21
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    Here's a couple pictures that might help.

    coil-mount1.jpgcoil-mount2.jpg

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisFuture8 View Post
    Here's a couple pictures that might help.

    coil-mount1.jpgcoil-mount2.jpg
    Thanks chris! Is this an 850? I dont have this, and it looks like it's non removable? Weird..

    Edit; I saw your profile. You also have a 91 850. Can you tell me if that part can be removed with bolts?

    Edit 2; I guess it's number 28 on this ETK picture:
    https://www.etkbmw.com/bmw/EN/search...70/ECE/41_0884

    Thanks a lot, I will get it!
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-14-2018 at 02:57 PM.

  23. #23
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    Bracket for coil is the same one that holds engine oil filter housing just as seen in Ohinzz's photos.

  24. #24
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    Thanks JDP. Found it and will buy one.

    Meanwhile I've fitted the throwing stars just to see the looks. They still need to be refinished (but also the rest of the car will be completely repainted). But mannnn, I love the styling 21 on this car;
    DpfUnfbW4AAqC9m.jpg

    If you guys are interested, I'm happy to post more updates over time. A lot will be done. If yes; maybe I should change the title of this thread to "850Ci overhaul". Is there a way to change it? Any mod around?

    Cheers!

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    E34 M5, Alpina B10, 850i
    Pretty making progress!

    Before:

    Dm0yvNDX0AMwe8q.jpg

    After:
    2018-10-28 19.06.17.jpg2018-10-28 19.19.10.jpg

    Repainted intake manifold, been pretty busy with cleaning everything, installed OEM airboxes (removed K&N open airfilters). Now waiting for the coil bracket and some other small stuff.

    Almost ready to fix bodywork

    Edit: We've decided not to use my Throwing stars. A set of Rondell 0058 is waiting to be mounted
    The 10x17 have 245 tires.. Tomorrow they will be replaced with 285.
    IMG_2865.jpg
    Last edited by Ohnizz; 10-28-2018 at 02:26 PM.

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