Front End/Whole Car Shake When Cold

[GiuseppeD]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but somewhat familiar with forums and very familiar with cars, just maybe not this one as I just got it. A few months back I purchased a 1997 E36 328i sedan 5 speed sport off of a good friend of mine. Lately as the weather has gotten colder, every morning when I pull out of my driveway I get an awful shake. You feel it in the steering wheel, the seat, the whole car in general. As it gets warmed up and you've been driving for a little bit it mellows out and pretty much just feel a slight shake in the steering wheel. It gets worse with speed no matter whether its cold or not. I live on a 55mph road that was freshly paved just two weeks ago which is about how long this has been going on but thats also all its been cold for. I have aligned it twice to a tee, rotated the tires regularly, checked the whole front end, did an inner and outer tie rod. (As well as a ton of other maintenance but really none that pertains to this problem). The car drives straight, I've had it well above the speed limit before and never experienced this problem. I do know I have one coil missing off of the drivers side rear coil spring, but I just found that out and got the new springs and shocks in the mail so I have not installed them yet. Not sure why that would effect it anyway. I can go double check my tire pressures and road force balance all 4 tires again but if it was a balance problem or a bent rim I'm pretty sure it wouldn't go away? There's no snow or ice in the rims as its not that cold yet. I've read possibly flat spots from sitting over night, seems unlikely as its never done it before but its never been cold yet nor does it completely go away. The wheels are staggered style 23's off of an M3 of the same year by the way. The previous owner had just replaced the driveshaft. It is definitely not an idle or engine ordeal. I have a gravel driveway but no way its rocks in the tires as they will eventually fly out... I drive enough and they're low pro, the rocks wouldn't even fit. I'm not sure, I'll try to go get it on a lift later this week but I'm starting to run out of ideas.... stuck/seized front struts or strut mounts? sticky brakes? Any input would be appreciated, thanks in advance!

Joseph

[ross1]

If you feel it in the seat then it is likely from the rear. my thoughts are flat spotted or defective (slipped belt)tire(s).
Quality tires or Pep Boys specials?

[bmwdirtracer]

Hi Joseph, and welcome to the forum.


There are many things that can cause this. Ross points out that because you can feel it in the seat, it's likely from the rear....but I respectfully disagree, because you feel it in the steering wheel. I have to also disagree with the tire deformation, because the issue goes away. Now, please don't get me wrong: Ross is very experienced, and I ALWAYS give the highest respect and consideration to his inputs. And, when we disagree, I always keep his posts in mind, because I've been wrong, um, many times.

Personally, I suspect the front brake rotors have pad deposits and the ductile iron has changed metallurgy to cementite in a particular location.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...nd-other-myths

I've suffered this issue through ~6 or more sets of rotors in my own personal M5, due to a master cylinder which held pressure applied to the front calipers. While I often felt the shaking during braking (AFTER ~2 months past rotor change), I also felt it for the first five miles in the morning, with zero braking.

Of course, there are many things which might be causing your issue, and omission of a single symptom might lead us to pick the wrong culprit. Do you feel pulsation in the brake pedal? Do you feel the steering shake under gentle braking?

[shadowpuck]

You guys are way too nice. That’s a serious wall of text!!

[bmwdirtracer]

Yep, you're right. I absolutely HATE lack of paragraph breaks.

Giuseppe, can you try to fix that, next post, please? It's so very hard to read!

[ross1]

I'm happy to stand corrected and learn.
what has me thinking tires is two things, worse when cold weather set in and also that it abates(partially) as the car is driven.
OP mentions regular tire rotation but also "staggered" wheel sizes which has me a bit confused. He's not mentioned any issues while braking and my personal experience is that brake issues usually get worse with driving/heat not better.
Curious to see where this one goes and hope the OP will follow up
What hasn't been addressed is suspension issues, not that any old BMW ever had any.

[GiuseppeD]

Sorry about the huge block of text! I will try to fix that in future posts, because now that I look back on it you guys are totally right...

I wouldn't necessarily rule the rear in or out as I do feel it in the seat, steering wheel, and car itself when I first start but you really only feel it in the steering wheel as it starts to go away. You do not feel it in the brake pedal or shifter. I am running staggered Continental Extreme Contact's all the way around that are in good condition. Like I said I don't believe there is any bent rims... could be but it definitely wouldn't go away obviously. Keep in mind, the cold weather could just be a coincidence that it started around the same time. I just notice it every morning when it has sat for over 8 hours and the car is cold.

I do run the brakes pretty hard sometimes and they do have some pulsation to them, I was actually in the process of ordering new shoes, pads, and rotors all the way around just the other day. I haven't decided on what pads and rotors I want to run yet, but definitely a possibility. The reason I wasn't sold on brakes was because it gets better with heat which is weird, I've always had trouble the other way around such as calipers stick, things expand, squeak, etc.

I did say I rotate them regularly and they are staggered. I mentioned the tires I run and they happen to just be a mount inside-outside tire. They're not directional, so I try to swap them side to side regularly so that they don't wear funny because it is an old car. I know some people don't recommend that, and normally I would never so that I'm not liable. But for my personal car it has worked this far.

LOL, as far as suspension I mentioned what needs to be addressed in the original post but none of it sticks out to me that much besides maybe sticking strut mounts or front struts themselves.

[bmwdirtracer]

Control arm bushings are by far the most likely suspension item to cause what you're experiencing. That said, this shake doesn't usually go away. Absolutely, there ARE other suspension items which are suspect: ball joints, strut mounts, steering items too.

Try this: From stone cold, take the car out on a brief 3 minute drive, until you feel the shake, and then bring it back home and raise the front end. Is either tire difficult to spin?

In my experience, driveshaft and drivetrain issues are not felt in the steering wheel on rear-wheel drive cars.

[GiuseppeD]

Ill check control arm bushings as soon as I can get it on a lift, which should be in the next week or two. If I could do what you said in the cold I would but unfortunately I live near no where and have no lift or even flat pavement at my disposal. I live on a dirt hill in the woods. I don't really think it is drivetrain related... feels like front suspension or brakes to me, especially because when all is gone its left in the steering wheel and because of its temperamental behavior. It doesn't even do it in the middle of the day if its been sitting, it has to have been sitting for a good bit.

UPDATE: Although I have still not found the problem, I do now hear what sounds to be a LF wheel bearing. Whenever I turn right and load up the left front I hear what I'm almost positive is a front wheel bearing. That could be a possibility, either way pretty soon coming up I will do the pads and rotors (and rear shoes) all the way around and do the wheel bearing and we'll see if that takes care of it.

[bmwdirtracer]

Before you replace one of the front wheelbearings, make sure you've got the correct side. At least half the time, the UNLOADED bearing makes the noise (and is bad).

Trust me, you don't live as far in the boonies as I do. To diag a control arm bushing without tools:
(1) turn the steering wheel a little to the left. Then kick the front of the left tire. Did the wheel move backwards? Repeat on the right.
(2) Drive very slowly, perhaps 2 mph. Slam on the brakes. Do you hear a "clunk" ?

Diagnosing a front wheelbearing:
(1) a mechanic's stehoscope is twenty bucks or less at Sears, Napa, etc. Get one, lift one fromt corner, put the stethoscope probe on the inside of the wheel carrier (upright). Spin the tire. Noisy? Try the other side, and compare.
(2) With wheel in the air, HIT the top of the tire, HARD, with the side of your fist, inwards. Did you hear a metallic noise, or just a soft thud? Repeat on the other side. The metallic noise means that side is bad.

[GiuseppeD]

I completely agree, I've worked in a garage for years, so I am familiar with diagnosing. I'll bring it down to the shop Monday and put it on a lift and check the whole front end and throw a stethoscope on it and listen for them both and go from there

[GiuseppeD]

For anyone who was curious to hear the end of this story... I ended up replacing every single suspension and steering component and the shake persisted.

Like I said it’s come and go so I think maybe cold tires really shows it? I’m not quite sure that part, but I put the car on a lift and spun the tires and 2 rims were bent. Just from spinning them in the air, you can tell with the naked eye. My snows tires and rims have been on for a while now though. Need to take them to the rim doctor!

[bmwdirtracer]

Brake rotors and hoses?

Vibrations caused by bent wheels don't go away as the car "warms up". Vibrations caused by sticking brake calipers do, because pressure eventually bleeds back though imploded hoses, or the calipers eventually are forced back enough to stop the shaking.

Certainly, you need straight wheels.