Can someone explain exactly what happens if you swap clusters?

[makenzie71]

Without changing vin/mileage, that is.

I just noticed that my tamper dot is lit up. It's been lit up since I got the car. I've been driving around for a year with it on. This lead me to look back at my carfax and noticed that someone managed to drive the car nearly 100,000 miles between February 2013 and October 2013...according to inspection reports, anyway.

My first thought is that someone swapped clusters because of dead pixels. Which would activate the tamper light.

Is there anything else that could trigger the tamper light? I was also lead to believe that if the tamper light was on the car would experience a number of problems...not just a light.

[GenericUserid]

You enter the matrix...


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[makenzie71]

Is that all? Doesn't sound so bad...

[makenzie71]

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...amper-dot-quot

Think that covers it. apparently nothing happens except the tamper dot comes on and the mileages never match again.

[BimmerBreaker]

If you put in a non original radio, it'll spit you back out of the matrix...

[makenzie71]

It already has a non original radio. I actually have an original radio and low cluster I'd like to swap in since they have all the pixels. Since my tamper dot is already dotted, I don't see a reason to not

[blackknight530i]

It already has a non original radio. I actually have an original radio and low cluster I'd like to swap in since they have all the pixels. Since my tamper dot is already dotted, I don't see a reason to not

Low clusters don't have "pixels", they have pictograms that light up by LEDs behind them. The high clusters have the dot matrix display that loses pixels. Are you saying you have a car with a high cluster and you want to put a low cluster in it, or are they both low clusters? Low and high clusters are not interchangeable, so it's not really worth it.

[makenzie71]

My understanding is that the low and high aren't interchangeable by themselves because a low cluster won't communicate with a high mid. I'd change both.

[amancuso]

My understanding is that the low and high aren't interchangeable by themselves because a low cluster won't communicate with a high mid. I'd change both.

It's more than just the MID and Cluster that would need changing. Also a lot of wiring would need to be changed/added depending on which way you go. Best bet is to switch like for like.

[geargrinder]

Well - If you work with that cool guy who runs 'fixels' he'll set you up with a nice high cluster AND match it all to your car so the mileage will be accurate and the tamper dot will go away.

[makenzie71]

Maybe...if anyone actually knows what the real miles are. I'm not worried about the dot, though...I'm really not worried about the mileage.

Long term I plan on sending the thing "fixels" but I still have to find a high mid...which has been hard since I'm not at this time willing to spend $100 for a thing I'll then have to send off to have it's pixels repaired. Pretty low on the priority list at this particular time.

This was more about being surprised that the only thing that happens with the tamper dot was on is that the tamper dot is on.

[Qsilver7]

Maybe...if anyone actually knows what the real miles are. I'm not worried about the dot, though...I'm really not worried about the mileage.

If your LCM hasn't been changed out...it knows what your actual mileage is because it has consistatly been receiving mileage data...it's just not sharing it with the IKE since the VINs don't match.

As soon as you write the same VIN to the IKE (the same one that is coded to the LCM)...and zero the mileage in the IKE...the LCM will share its data with the IKE to update it with all the info it has been storing (see DATAPOINT #2 in the redundant data storage info below)

[TerraPhantm]

If your LCM hasn't been changed out...it knows what your actual mileage is because it has consistatly been receiving mileage data...it's just not sharing it with the IKE since the VINs don't match.

As soon as you write the same VIN to the IKE (the same one that is coded to the LCM)...and zero the mileage in the IKE...the LCM will share its data with the IKE to update it with all the info it has been storing (see DATAPOINT #2 in the redundant data storage info below)

Actually no. The LCM will be frozen at the last mileage it received before the new cluster was installed. Can't say what the true mileage is today without knowing the mileage of the car the donor cluster came out of.

[geargrinder]

I wondered about that. I wasn't sure if the LCM still got the "every 100k" data packet and continued to increment. It would actually be "the better way" to have done it to preserve original mileage on the car... Of course w later cars the mileage gets tucked into the keys too so that pretty much takes care of it...

[BimmerBreaker]

Actually no. The LCM will be frozen at the last mileage it received before the new cluster was installed. Can't say what the true mileage is today without knowing the mileage of the car the donor cluster came out of.

I was under the impression it kept recording miles. Otherwise all youd have to do to keep miles off the car is unplug the cluster...
Think the DME tells the LCM and IKE what the mileage is and if one isnt there, it isnt there, but I dont think it stops updating the other mileage. The tamper dot occurs when mileage is 120+ miles different in the two modules, would be stupid if unplugging one stopped updating the other as well because at that point its sort of like whats the point of that feature...

Not positive but would be curious if you have any proof of it working that way as it seems extremely counterintuitive

[philly98540]

Interesting disucussion here. Sub'd

[geargrinder]

Think the DME tells the LCM and IKE what the mileage is and if one isnt there, it isnt there, but I dont think it stops updating the other mileage.

Actually IKE gets the mileage/speedo from the ABS sensors, DME isn't involved at all AFAIK. What would be sensible - to me at least - would be if both modules independently continued to increment based on ABS sensor data, to prevent exactly what you're saying. However I'm not gonna doubt Terra he probably has confirmed this whole situation.

[BimmerBreaker]

What would be sensible - to me at least - would be if both modules independently continued to increment based on ABS sensor data, to prevent exactly what you're saying.

Yeah thats what makes sense to me

Though all this talk is making me think I can send my cluster out for a pixel fix and keep driving the car and just recode mileage correctly once its here. Though you said it records in the key too..?

On that note, if taking the cluster out stops LCM recording mileage, why would anyone not drive their car while cluster was having pixels fixed? Because if it does stop recording, it wont throw a tamper dot once cluster gets reinstalled..

[geargrinder]

Sorry - No what I meant was later chassis BMWs put the mileage in the key. No E39 does that AFAIK.

[BimmerBreaker]

Sorry - No what I meant was later chassis BMWs put the mileage in the key. No E39 does that AFAIK.

Yeah I was gonna say - is there a module hiding somewhere I dont know about?

Guess I could check the mileage in the LCM, unplug my cluster, drive down the block then see what mileage the LCM says...

[TerraPhantm]

I was under the impression it kept recording miles. Otherwise all youd have to do to keep miles off the car is unplug the cluster...
Think the DME tells the LCM and IKE what the mileage is and if one isnt there, it isnt there, but I dont think it stops updating the other mileage. The tamper dot occurs when mileage is 120+ miles different in the two modules, would be stupid if unplugging one stopped updating the other as well because at that point its sort of like whats the point of that feature...

Not positive but would be curious if you have any proof of it working that way as it seems extremely counterintuitive

That is indeed all you have to do to stop mileage from being recorded. DME isn’t involved in the process at all. Cluster just determines how much distance is traveled based on the wheel speed sensors and shares that information with the modules that need it.

Point number 1 in that image should be proof enough “if the vehicle id number is not the same in both modules, the manipulation dot is activated and there is no data exchange between the ike and lcm”

Sorry - No what I meant was later chassis BMWs put the mileage in the key. No E39 does that AFAIK.

You sure about that? I know for a fact the e46 keys store mileage, and since the e39 uses pretty much the same keys and EWS, I’d be surprised if it didn’t do it.

[BimmerBreaker]

Point number 1 in that image should be proof enough “if the vehicle id number is not the same in both modules, the manipulation dot is activated and there is no data exchange between the ike and lcm”

But in this case, the vehicle id number (VIN) is the same, the mileage is what changes

It says the LCM only updates every 60 miles, so maybe if the cluster is unplugged and car is driven less than 60 miles before cluster is plugged back in, the LCM may stay at it's original mileage. But stands to reason still that if it is driven past that threshold, the LCM will update with that mileage, regardless of whether the IKE is present or not. The ABS module is still recording the miles, and it seems that the LCM doesn't read it's data from the IKE, the LCM and IKE values are only compared at startup. The point of the system, as I understand it, is to put the mileage in two modules so if something weird happens where they don't match, the tamper dot indicates such.

It was always my understanding that if you drove a car with it's cluster out it will get a tamper dot. For that to be true, the LCM must be recording mileage independently of the IKE.

[TerraPhantm]

It was always my understanding that if you drove a car with it's cluster out it will get a tamper dot. For that to be true, the LCM must be recording mileage independently of the IKE.

Your understanding is wrong on two counts. Mileage discrepancies will never set off the tamper dot, only VIN. And two, the LCM doesn’t record mileage on its own, it only records what the cluster reports in 100km increments.

The LCM will also never increment past the instrument cluster. If you install a lower mileage cluster and make the VINs match, then the LCM will be frozen at the mileage it was at until the new cluster catches up. And if you install a cluster with significantly higher mileage and make the VINs match, the LCM generally stays frozen where it was (IIRC it refuses to increment when there’s a greater than 200km discrepancy).

[Qsilver7]

Your understanding is wrong on two counts. Mileage discrepancies will never set off the tamper dot, only VIN. And two, the LCM doesn’t record mileage on its own, it only records what the cluster reports in 100km increments.

The LCM will also never increment past the instrument cluster. If you install a lower mileage cluster and make the VINs match, then the LCM will be frozen at the mileage it was at until the new cluster catches up. And if you install a cluster with significantly higher mileage and make the VINs match, the LCM generally stays frozen where it was (IIRC it refuses to increment when there’s a greater than 200km discrepancy).

Question: if the above is true, then how do we interpret the 5th data point in the redundant data storage? If you remove the cluster and drive over 120 miles (or 200 kilometers)...then a fault is recorded. That seems to indicate that the LCM receives some type of mileage data, too...since it can tell if you've driven over the aforementioned limit when a cluster has been removed or swapped etc.

This makes me wonder as to if the LCM receives mileage data from another module. Does anyone know if mileage is recorded by a module associated with the transmission?

Or perhaps the distance data being sent from the left rear wheel sensor...ends up going more places than just the ABS unit and IKE. :

Also, starting with the new style (diamond remote) from 9/99-up build date...it stores mileage. This is when BMW started using the key readers in the service department to gather the odometer data. And if memory serves me correct, I believe the key receives this data from the DME/ECU.

[Qsilver7]

In the info below about the distance signal from the rear left wheel sensor...it sends data to the ABS/DSC unit for processing to the IKE...but if the IKE isn't present I wonder if that data still travels over the I or K bus...to the DME and LM (light module was the forerunner of the LCM). Again, the remote keys from 9/99-up build date receives mileage data from the DME...so somehow the DME is receiving mileage info.