Can someone explain exactly what happens if you swap clusters?

[TerraPhantm]

Question: if the above is true, then how do we interpret the 5th data point in the redundant data storage? If you remove the cluster and drive over 120 miles (or 200 kilometers)...then a fault is recorded. That seems to indicate that the LCM receives some type of mileage data, too...since it can tell if you've driven over the aforementioned limit when a cluster has been removed or swapped etc.

This makes me wonder as to if the LCM receives mileage data from another module. Does anyone know if mileage is recorded by a module associated with the transmission?

Or perhaps the distance data being sent from the left rear wheel sensor...ends up going more places than just the ABS unit and IKE. :

Also, starting with the new style (diamond remote) from 9/99-up build date...it stores mileage. This is when BMW started using the key readers in the service department to gather the odometer data. And if memory serves me correct, I believe the key receives this data from the DME/ECU.

The discrepancy would only ever happen in the other direction. If you remove the LCM and drive 200km (or say your I/K-bus is down for > 200km), a fault will be stored due to the mismatch. If the cluster is removed, no mileage gets logged period.

In the info below about the distance signal from the rear left wheel sensor...it sends data to the ABS/DSC unit for processing to the IKE...but if the IKE isn't present I wonder if that data still travels over the I or K bus...to the DME and LM (light module was the forerunner of the LCM). Again, the remote keys from 9/99-up build date receives mileage data from the DME...so somehow the DME is receiving mileage info.

Keys get their mileage from the EWS module which gets it from the cluster. DME isn’t involved and doesn’t record mileage. If the cluster isn’t present, no mileage is incremented.

[blackknight530i]

Ok, just need to clear up some information in this thread.

TerraPhantm, the LCM does increment as long as there is a cluster installed. It will always remember what the current mileage is, which is why I can install a 0 mile cluster into a car with unknown miles and it downloads the latest mileage on the car. I have seen this on cars that have had an incorrect cluster installed for a few thousand miles and after they get the mileage corrected, it shows the correct mileage for the car, including the additional few thousand. Have you not seen this as well?

What I have seen is the EWS will not increment until the IKE is within about 60 miles or so of it. I had a weird issue when I was trying to figure out how to 0 out a cluster in my early days and inadvertently ended up temporarily with a cluster with 999,999 miles, that had the correct VIN. It ended up setting the mileage of the EWS to 999,999miles and it won't increment. I think I've also seen on another car where someone coded their used cluster that had higher miles to the correct VIN and it increased the mileage on the EWS to match. Then, when they got the cluster mileage corrected, it fixed the mileage on the cluster of course, but the EWS stayed stationary at whatever the higher miles was, until the mileage synced up again (car mileage reached the same miles as was stored on the EWS), then they incremented together again.

[TerraPhantm]

0 mile is a special case. Anything else it won’t sync.

Every time I’ve installed a virgin cluster into a car, it downloaded the old mileage. Largest discrepancy I saw was about 40k miles.

[geargrinder]

M - are you talking from E46 & E39 experience or primarily E46? Given the fact the E46 keys also stash away the mileage while the E39 doesn't... the other module rules of communication might also be different...

[TerraPhantm]

M - are you talking from E46 & E39 experience or primarily E46? Given the fact the E46 keys also stash away the mileage while the E39 doesn't... the other module rules of communication might also be different...

Primarily, but not exclusively e46 experience.

I guess I could try rigging something up on the bench to test things out. Should be easy enough to fake a speedo signal

[djb2]

The e39 EWS stores the mileage in the keys. It's easy to verify with a AK90.

The distance is stored in Km, and it will be a bit more than displayed. There is an small offset stored in the instrument cluster. The factory sets the offset so that the odometer reads 0 when the car is released from the factory. This offset can be modified, while the distance is stored in a section of the same EEPROM that can only be incremented.

[BimmerBreaker]

Ok, just need to clear up some information in this thread.

TerraPhantm, the LCM does increment as long as there is a cluster installed. It will always remember what the current mileage is, which is why I can install a 0 mile cluster into a car with unknown miles and it downloads the latest mileage on the car. I have seen this on cars that have had an incorrect cluster installed for a few thousand miles and after they get the mileage corrected, it shows the correct mileage for the car, including the additional few thousand. Have you not seen this as well?

What I have seen is the EWS will not increment until the IKE is within about 60 miles or so of it. I had a weird issue when I was trying to figure out how to 0 out a cluster in my early days and inadvertently ended up temporarily with a cluster with 999,999 miles, that had the correct VIN. It ended up setting the mileage of the EWS to 999,999miles and it won't increment. I think I've also seen on another car where someone coded their used cluster that had higher miles to the correct VIN and it increased the mileage on the EWS to match. Then, when they got the cluster mileage corrected, it fixed the mileage on the cluster of course, but the EWS stayed stationary at whatever the higher miles was, until the mileage synced up again (car mileage reached the same miles as was stored on the EWS), then they incremented together again.

So the LCM won't record mileage without a cluster in place then, correct? That seems weird but if it's reading the signal from the IKE then that makes sense

And if I'm understanding you correctly, if I had another E39 gauge cluster, I could send my cluster out to get the pixels fixed, throw the used cluster in while it's getting fixed, then re-code my original cluster to 0 miles and it'll pull the correct mileage from the LCM?
And because I would be re-using my original cluster that process is as easy as using NCS expert in the IKE module to execute FGNR_schreiben, ZCS_schreiben and then the SG_codieren to code it?

[djb2]

The instrument cluster has a special EEPROM. The first 16 locations (16 bit words) can only be written with the same or higher value. The other locations can be overwritten with any value.

The cluster records the odometer value using all 16 locations. Every kilometer it increments the next location. After 16 kilometers it starts back at the beginning. Thus the typical read-out of the EEPROM looks like 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 (other values). The maximum odometer value is thus 65535 x 16 = 1048560 Km or 655350 miles. (I'm uncertain if it's actually capped at 999999 Km. Since the display of miles is calculated from the internal Km count, it might be limited to 625000 miles.)

The "only" way to reset the odometer is to install a new factory EEPROM, and copy over the configuration values (which has unique information such as gauge calibration for that specific cluster). This EEPROM has a unique pinout, so you can't substitute a standard EEPROM. However someone has apparently figured out the undocumented factory test and initialization process for some of the chip versions, as there are tools out there that claim to be able to reset the odometer.

[geargrinder]

DJ thanks for explaining the hex coding methodology. I've looked at the dumps numerous times and had an alternate explain of how they used the eeprom feature/restrictions toencode the mileage but that makes more sense.

[blackknight530i]

The instrument cluster has a special EEPROM. The first 16 locations (16 bit words) can only be written with the same or higher value. The other locations can be overwritten with any value.

The cluster records the odometer value using all 16 locations. Every kilometer it increments the next location. After 16 kilometers it starts back at the beginning. Thus the typical read-out of the EEPROM looks like 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 (other values). The maximum odometer value is thus 65535 x 16 = 1048560 Km or 655350 miles. (I'm uncertain if it's actually capped at 999999 Km. Since the display of miles is calculated from the internal Km count, it might be limited to 625000 miles.)

The "only" way to reset the odometer is to install a new factory EEPROM, and copy over the configuration values (which has unique information such as gauge calibration for that specific cluster). This EEPROM has a unique pinout, so you can't substitute a standard EEPROM. However someone has apparently figured out the undocumented factory test and initialization process for some of the chip versions, as there are tools out there that claim to be able to reset the odometer.

93s66 chips do not have a readily available eraser for sale out there, but can apparently be done with some homebrew stuff and a universal programmer. M35080-3 chips use the more common "red" mileage tool that most people see on ebay for about $50-60 or so if I recall. M35080-6/V6/VP use another higher cost eraser out there (I have this) that can also erase M35080-3 chips as well since it has a second 8 pin socket for those. The -6/V6/VP chips do have a different pinout than the -3 chips, which is why it needs a second socket or a different eraser. 93s66 chips aren't worth erasing as you can get brand new chips for cheap on ebay if you really want to deal with them, but to be honest, almost every single 93s66 chipped cluster that is a high cluster has bad pixels anyways. They also can't automatically download the mileage from the car and need the mileage manually coded. The M35080 variants can all download the mileage automatically from the car if the VIN matches and the mileage is 0 on the cluster. Once you install the cluster and turn the key, it will start showing the current mileage downloaded from the LCM.

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So the LCM won't record mileage without a cluster in place then, correct? That seems weird but if it's reading the signal from the IKE then that makes sense

And if I'm understanding you correctly, if I had another E39 gauge cluster, I could send my cluster out to get the pixels fixed, throw the used cluster in while it's getting fixed, then re-code my original cluster to 0 miles and it'll pull the correct mileage from the LCM?
And because I would be re-using my original cluster that process is as easy as using NCS expert in the IKE module to execute FGNR_schreiben, ZCS_schreiben and then the SG_codieren to code it?

That's correct. If you have me do the pixel repair, I do all the NCS Expert coding for you before sending it back so it's plug and play though.

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Maybe...if anyone actually knows what the real miles are. I'm not worried about the dot, though...I'm really not worried about the mileage.

Long term I plan on sending the thing "fixels" but I still have to find a high mid...which has been hard since I'm not at this time willing to spend $100 for a thing I'll then have to send off to have it's pixels repaired. Pretty low on the priority list at this particular time.

This was more about being surprised that the only thing that happens with the tamper dot was on is that the tamper dot is on.

Are you trying to convert your car from low to high, or do you already have a high cluster? You say you are looking for a "high mid", but did you mean cluster? If you're just looking for a high cluster that already has pixels fixed and mileage corrected, I have those available, so just PM me.

[BimmerBreaker]

That's correct. If you have me do the pixel repair, I do all the NCS Expert coding for you before sending it back so it's plug and play though.

Sweet, I'll PM you about that shortly. Not quite ready to pull the trigger quite yet but will do so soon. May have another car to drive in the meantime...

BTW, read through a huuuuge thread about getting the oil temp lights to work on 540i's the other day. Some mumblings about M54 stuff in there... couldn't get a clear answer in the thread (most of it was about the 540) so wanted to ask - is it possible to get a 4.6is cluster to work nicely in an M54? I'd want the warmup lights, as I understand it the oil temp works right away

[blackknight530i]

Sweet, I'll PM you about that shortly. Not quite ready to pull the trigger quite yet but will do so soon. May have another car to drive in the meantime...

BTW, read through a huuuuge thread about getting the oil temp lights to work on 540i's the other day. Some mumblings about M54 stuff in there... couldn't get a clear answer in the thread (most of it was about the 540) so wanted to ask - is it possible to get a 4.6is cluster to work nicely in an M54? I'd want the warmup lights, as I understand it the oil temp works right away

TerraPhantm needs to answer that. He mentioned possibly being able to add the warm up lights to the MS43 DME, but I don't think he's attempted it yet. I know as of now that warm up lights don't work, but of course oil temp gauge does. Warm up lights only are nifty for about the first few minutes of driving anyways as the oil comes up to temp fairly quickly on M54s.

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[BimmerBreaker]

Yeah I could go without the warmup lights if they dont have it figured out. Maybe ill just send you my 4.6is cluster... How do the redline lights function if I were to send it to you and use it now? Lights up just the redline and the one yellow before it, like at operating temp?

Would PM but its really buggy for me. Maybe some are curious as well

[blackknight530i]

Yeah I could go without the warmup lights if they dont have it figured out. Maybe ill just send you my 4.6is cluster... How do the redline lights function if I were to send it to you and use it now? Lights up just the redline and the one yellow before it, like at operating temp?

Would PM but its really buggy for me. Maybe some are curious as well

Yes, just the red and last yellow stay on, which is pretty close to the actual redline of the M54 anyways.

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[TerraPhantm]

TerraPhantm needs to answer that. He mentioned possibly being able to add the warm up lights to the MS43 DME, but I don't think he's attempted it yet. I know as of now that warm up lights don't work, but of course oil temp gauge does. Warm up lights only are nifty for about the first few minutes of driving anyways as the oil comes up to temp fairly quickly on M54s.

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Yeah it should be doable but I haven’t attempted it yet. Do have working code for the MS45

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The -6/V6/VP chips do have a different pinout than the -3 chips, which is why it needs a second socket or a different eraser.

Shouldn’t be different. I know variants exist, but I’ve also definitely seen the same boards come with -3 and -6 / V6 variants (and have used them interchangeably, noting that the latter ones are tougher to erase)

[Qsilver7]

...ditto...definitely an educational thread...although some of it made me a bit dizzy and I'm sure some of it I don't quite get...it still is great info! It also makes me appreciate those of you that jumped in to figure this all out...just a little bit more.

[BimmerBreaker]

Yeah it should be doable but I haven’t attempted it yet. Do have working code for the MS45

If you need a guinea pig...

[blackknight530i]

If you need a guinea pig...

I told him I was willing a long time ago, LOL. I already have the M5 cluster in my 530it6 wagon.

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[BimmerBreaker]

Well what ya'll waiting for? Id certainly throw a few extra bucks on top of the pixel repair to have warmup lights working... Have to imagine some others would as well

[blackknight530i]

Well what ya'll waiting for? Id certainly throw a few extra bucks on top of the pixel repair to have warmup lights working... Have to imagine some others would as well

I have to wait for Terraphantm to make a tune, and he would be the one to offer the extra bucks to. For me, it's just for my time to flash it if you don't want to do it yourself. That's what I do on the M62TU tunes. I don't charge for the tune itself since I didn't make it and Terraphantm posted it publicly.

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[TerraPhantm]

Well what ya'll waiting for? Id certainly throw a few extra bucks on top of the pixel repair to have warmup lights working... Have to imagine some others would as well

It largely comes down to me not being familiar enough with the C167 (processor in the MS43) to add a function. MS45 uses a PowerPC variant, which I'm more familiar with and find more intuitive. And I don't really have time to dedicate to learning the MS43 code.. I'm a medical student currently on my surgery rotation, which has me pretty damn busy (~12 hour days + one ~28 hour shift every week), so I barely have enough time to study for things I should be studying for, let alone something completely unrelated to my field of study.

[makenzie71]

It largely comes down to me not being familiar enough with the C167 (processor in the MS43) to add a function. MS45 uses a PowerPC variant, which I'm more familiar with and find more intuitive. And I don't really have time to dedicate to learning the MS43 code.. I'm a medical student currently on my surgery rotation, which has me pretty damn busy (~12 hour days + one ~28 hour shift every week), so I barely have enough time to study for things I should be studying for, let alone something completely unrelated to my field of study.

You're work/education schedule is no excuse with there's people lining up to give tens...possibly even dozens...of dollars.

[blackknight530i]

You're work/education schedule is no excuse with there's people lining up to give tens...possibly even dozens...of dollars.

LMAO.

Jeez Mirza. That's crazy.

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[makenzie71]

Well I can tell you at the very least a 2003 530i cluster won't work in a 1997 540i...or the fuel gauge works fine, and the OBC works fine, but the tach doesn't fire at all. Cheap and clean so I thought I'd test it.

[blackknight530i]

Well I can tell you at the very least a 2003 530i cluster won't work in a 1997 540i...or the fuel gauge works fine, and the OBC works fine, but the tach doesn't fire at all. Cheap and clean so I thought I'd test it.

Just needs coding. Early cars used a real tach signal while later uses it over CAN bus. Code it to the car and all functions will work.

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