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Thread: 740i alginment issues - keeps pulling to the right

  1. #1
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    740i alignment issues - keeps pulling to the right

    Loads of fun. Here's the story.

    I did the 20-piece replacement with Lemforder and TRW parts: control arms, steering including centre link, etc.

    The car wasn't doing badly at all but there was a persistent clonk which my mechanic misdiagnosed as a control arm - it was not, it was a centre link balljoint.

    In any case, I replaced everything, chronicled some of it here and took the car to a local alignment shop to have it straightened out.

    I got it back - with the Hunter rack printout showing good 'after' values - and the car was pulling very slightly to the right. That is to say, you have to hold and apply pressure to the steering wheel to prevent the car from drifting into the next lane.

    This did not happen before - most interestingly, it didn't even happen when I drove the car five miles to the shop itself...

    After a while I my SO SUGGESTED that I rectify the issue so I brought it to a different alignment shop with excellent reviews.

    They put the car on THEIR Hunter rack and realigned it. The before values from them - especially for front toe - were MATERIALLY different than the 'after' value from the previous shop, some three months and ~4000 miles before.

    I got the car back.. and it drove straight. And it actually behaved like an E38 from the factory, without needing to be overdriven all over the place. Happiness.

    ...for about 500 miles.

    It has since been getting progressively worse and as of now if you let go of the steering wheel not only will it go right but the steering wheel will turn itself to the right - something that makes me think that toe on the right front is significantly too open.

    Putting the car on the lift didn't show any glaring problems and the wheels do NOT move when you try to shift them by hand.

    1) How is this realistically possible?

    2) Should I go have a Quiet Conversation (TM) with the second alignment shop?
    Last edited by nmlss2006; 09-20-2018 at 09:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    It does seem odd. How’s the pressure in the RF tire? If they checked tire pressure before the alignment a slow leak would explain the pull to the right getting progressively worse.

    If not maybe bring it back to the second shop and ask them to diagnose the pull to the right rather than just ask for an alignment. I often go in with a directive based on my own diagnosis and at times wish I had let the mechanic do the diagnosing. I am not as smaht as I fancy myself to be lol.
    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

  3. #3
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    +1 on checking tires. One step further could be swapping wheels left to right, or even front to back (just for the test).
    Current: 2007 Z4 M Coupe (blue/black)
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  4. #4
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    I guess it still doesn't explain the different before and after results. That's a head scratcher.
    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

  5. #5
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    +1 on the tires. Sounds like a radial 'pull', an increase in rolling friction due to tire belt shifting. Swap the fronts side to side
    and see if the pull diminishes or shifts to the left. Common issue with radials.

  6. #6
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    Unlike the previous comments, I doubt this has anything to do with your front tires.

    And don't pay any attention to the difference between before/after alignment figures. These "before" figures are almost meaningless and are generated by the automated alignment rack merely as reference points. (I concluded this when I was going thru a difficult time getting my car aligned -- the figures were always different.)

    You're probably getting abnormal tire wear too. Go look.

    My guess is your problem lies with the rear suspension. Have a pro mechanic (a different set of eyes) go over all the work you did in the front, and also look at the back -- there's a suspension problem somewhere.

    Frankie
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    frankies-bmw.com

  7. #7
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    Is it possible they forgot to properly torque one of the eccentric bolts? I had problems with a previous car until I replaced the old nuts/bolts with new that could hold the proper torque.

  8. #8
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    As you can see, there are many theories and suggestions. Start with simple and free tests (e.g. tire pressure, move wheels) before moving onto other things which may require $$$. My 2cents.
    Current: 2007 Z4 M Coupe (blue/black)
    Previous: 2001 740iL Sport (black/black), 2000 528i Sport (black/tan), 1995 318is (black/black), 1991 318is (white/black)

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruskii View Post
    As you can see, there are many theories and suggestions. Start with simple and free tests (e.g. tire pressure, move wheels) before moving onto other things which may require $$$. My 2cents.
    I agree with that sentiment! But I'll bet Frankie is on to something with his theory...

    2000 740i Sport | 2004 330xi | 1988 325i Vert | 2003 Z4 2.5 | 1995 Ford F150 | 2018 GTI

  10. #10
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    First of all, thanks everyone for chiming in.

    Tires have been checked multiple times and pressures are fine and consistent.

    Tire wear is fine on the rear, whereas the front has very evident signs of excessive wear - on the left outside shoulder and on the right inside shoulder.

    The problem is, that combination would tend to imply the opposite problem...

    As to 'before' values on alignment racks, I would very much hope that they wouldn't be random, considering that the after values are measured in the same way by the same sensors.

    There is a very small residual thrust angle in the rear but it's minute - 0.04 degrees, well within both BMW spec and 'normal car values'.

    As a first experiment, I'll do what Ruskii and Frankie suggest and swap the front tires. They are in need of replacement anyways, Toyo all seasons that came with the set of rims that I couldn't bring myself to just toss because they were six months old when I got them... the only issue is, the tires are directional, but it's worth giving it a brief try.

    I'll report back.

  11. #11
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    I didn't see brakes mentioned. (Sorry if you did and I missed it.) If a caliper or pads on the right side are sticking the car will pull to the right.

    Also, I've had a power-steering system go bad where the car wanted to turn one way easier than the other, and it tended to pull in that direction while driving straight. (Don't know about e38 steering system.) Good luck!

  12. #12
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    Huh! That's not a bad thought at all, though I'd think it would get hot... in a hurry. I'll stick my nose in there this weekend..

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    I'd think it would get hot... in a hurry. I'll stick my nose in there this weekend..
    Thats what he said!
    Current: 2007 Z4 M Coupe (blue/black)
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  14. #14
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    Tires, tires, tires, TIRES

    You already have uneven wear on your tires, so that's a problem right there. But...

    You may not be able to see it, but the tread pattern or a separated belt will cause a pull. I have my 16" basket weaves and my 18" m-pars. With the M-pars, the car tracks PERFECTLY straight. With the 16" wheels with tires that look perfect and have been inspected multiple times, the car pulls HARD to the right. I have swapped front tires left right to check and the pull improves. They are directional, so the only option I have is front to back swap (which still improves it) or pay to have a shop remount them (not worth it to me). I have additionally compensated by running the right side tires 4psi higher than the left.

    Before all this also years ago, I had a pull on my 18" wheels with other tires. Took it to BMW and within an hour, they swapped both fronts and pull was gone.

    The idea is similar to a styrofoam cup you lay on its side and roll. It is tapered, and therefore rolls in a circle.

    You MUST swap the tires around to check for a tire-related pull. It is by far the easiest and cheapest thing to do.

    https://www.souzastireservice.com/ti...icle-pull.aspx
    Last edited by racer2086; 09-22-2018 at 02:41 PM.
    '98 740il | 9/97 build | schwarz 2 | sandbeige | 5AT | 270k
    '04 330i ZHP sedan | Mystic blue | Alcantara | 6MT | 120k
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  15. #15
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    I hear you. Let me finish shoving baguettes in the oven and I'll go play with the lift.

    The thing is, the shoulder wear *is* there and the differing alignment values are on sheets (that I can scan and print)... so I think there may be multiple issues at play.

    I can swap on two M-par spares for testing purposes...

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    ...the shoulder wear *is* there....I can swap on two M-par spares...
    Play footsies with tires if you must, but you're wasting your time.

    Abnormal tire wear is a symptom, not a cause. You have a suspension problem.

    Additionally it's worth asking: are your final alignment numbers within spec? Or, are they as good as the shop could get them? Review your report closely.

    Frankie
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    frankies-bmw.com

  17. #17
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    A friend got 4-wheel alignment done on his 6-Series - allowed the operator to remove the gubbins from the wheels, and then got them to check the alignment again without moving the car an inch - results were miles out! This is why BMW uses the KDS system that aligns the hubs and not the wheels - more stuff here:

    https://www.bimmerforums.co.uk/forum...5/#post3251289

    P.S. I agree with Frankie - the alignment is miles out, your car is crabbing meaning that the rear wheels don't follow those at the front!
    Last edited by Timm; 09-24-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Folks,
    thanks for adding input.

    I tend to agree with Frankie about tire wear being a symptom - that is why I mentioned 'multiple issues'.

    Tim, the problem is that 'KDS' seems to be UK/EU terminology, there seems to be no tire service that advertises such services stateside. This is a bit of an issue considering that the dealers here (that is to say - in my area) are not a viable option.

    There are a few things that still puzzle me:
    First, I have never seen a rear suspension out of alignment that causes no wear issues (doubly so on four season tires, which will start wearing funny if you look at them cross-eyed).
    Second, the car has gotten materially worse in a short period of time after having it aligned the second time. Now, all else being equal this would seem to indicate that something is loose. Except there is nothing out of torque spec in the front suspension (or the rear). This is the most puzzling thing.

    Finally, well, I'm sort of stuck, unless I start driving around and asking tire shops to take a look at the specific model of alignment rack they're using.

    There is a place up in Newark but TBH driving 80-some miles in the present condition is not the greatest idea. I'll call them tomorrow and see if they even know what KDS means - they're supposed to be the go-to shop for BMWs locally.

    Unfortunately, so was the shop in NY...

    And no, I have not yet had time to even try swapping tires. The weekend has been interesting.

  19. #19
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    It'd be nice to be able to just have BMW align it.

    These are the same tires that were on your worn out suspension? So it's not surprising if they are worn weird? If we want to assume the tire wear is a symptom of the alignment (a possibility), then once you get the alignment correct, the pull could be a symptom of the tire wear. It doesn't matter how perfect the alignment is if the tires are worn all messed up.

    Additionally, I don't know about NJ, but the roads down here in FL are crowned to make sure the rain runs off, so even on a perfect alignment a little pull due to the road crown is normal. Sounds like you're getting more than that, but just wanted to note that too.

    The only reason why I am telling you about the tires is because you can come drive my car with the mpars on it and it will track perfectly straight. My alignment is out in the back right and they couldn't get the toe correct because the adjuster is stuck. Still tracks straight.

    Swap on my evenly worn all season tires on 16" rims and the car drives itself to the right. The wheel literally turns on its own from a stop (which tells me it's a front tire problem). I didn't change the alignment when I swapped the tires. It's 100% the tires in my case. Most likely a separated belt.

    Just my $0.02
    '98 740il | 9/97 build | schwarz 2 | sandbeige | 5AT | 270k
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  20. #20
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    Racer, it's complicated (yes, I'm fond of the word).

    These tires were never on the car with the 'worn' suspension. Which, by the by, I should have left well enough alone because... it was not.

    However, they WERE on a different car - I took the Mpars off one of my parts cars and the tires were too good and too new to just throw away. This is why I have 18"s with four seasons, it would make no sense otherwise.

    I know for a fact that the tires were NOT oddly worn when I put them on - the curious thing is, when I brought the car to be aligned the first time I had winter tires on and kept them on for 1500ish miles. Yes, the car pulled and felt wrong (you should not have to oversteer an E38 in a straight line) but wear on the winters was fine. I put the 18s on and decided I'd have the second shop take a look at things... and the fun started. The part which is most puzzling to me is the fact that when I took the car out of the second shop it was not perfect but it felt much better. Its behaviour... degraded since.

    I'll play around with tires. This is a front tire / front suspension issue, I have the same 'drive itself with wheel turning' issue you do and if that improves matters, then maybe I can find a shop with KDS 'quick adapters' to see if it makes a difference.

    Incidentally - I've had several BMWs and other, much touchier cars aligned in the EU and here. No use of 'KDS' adapters, yet they were fine and stayed fine.

    I get the feeling it's the usual problem, not one of machinery at all.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    ...I'm sort of stuck...
    No you're not.

    Did you notice my advice in post#6? Forget about alignment shops right now. Your first priority is a complete suspension check by a BMW indy shop. A search turned up several options in your area.

    Get going.

    Frankie
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    frankies-bmw.com

  22. #22
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    You installed the 20-piece kit, which means all of the front and rear suspension is new. Did you touch the struts? Can you post up your alignment sheet? I would like to know what the "steer ahead" is and thrust angle.

    The interesting thing is that there's only 1 alignment adjustment for the front suspension on these cars and only 2 for the rear.

    The front you can only adjust toe where the outer tie rod meets the inner tie rod. (The front camber is set by the lower control arms and struts. Caster is set by the strut position.)

    The rear you can adjust toe and camber. In the rear, the toe is adjusted using the eccentric bolt through the rear guide rods, and the camber is adjusted with that big ass eccentric bolt that goes through the rear lower ball joints.

    That's it. It's not rocket science to align these things.

    Toe will not cause a pull, but will cause fast tire wear. Caster and camber will cause a pull if they are uneven left to right.

    If something is off other than toe or rear camber, it can't be adjusted. At that point, a suspension part is defective, improperly installed (not sure how, loose maybe?), or something is bent.

    Here's what I'm piecing together from your posts:

    You replaced front and rear suspension and had the car aligned on winter tires. The car pulled to the right after the alignment. Did it do it before? Tread pattern could lead to a pull. (Side tangent: I took my car to BMW for a pull to the right about 5 years ago. They gave it back to me an hour later and swapped both front tires. Told me it was not the alignment, but tread pull.)

    Then you swapped to mpars from parts car with tires of unknown history and had the car aligned again. Did you drive it on those "new" tires before getting it aligned? It felt better after the alignment, but then got worse along with the tire wear. Sounds like the first shop may have got the alignment right but your winter tires were causing a pull. Then the second shop bungled (or tried to compensate for) the pull with your alignment due to your complaint of pull to the right.

    Post up the alignment sheets from the two shops. Maybe there's something to see there. Maybe the shop's machine is completely out of calibration or the tech put the head on the rim wrong. I just don't see that happening multiple times at multiple shops on new suspension parts, hence the reason I was looking elsewhere for problems.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Wait I just re-read your post above about the tire wear. Left outside wear and right inside wear.

    That's either negative toe on the left, positive toe on the right. Or positive camber on left, negative camber on right.

    Did you mix up the front lower control arms? Make sure left is on left and right is on right. They are different and stamped with a letter. The camber issue could cause pull.
    Last edited by racer2086; 09-25-2018 at 04:44 PM.
    '98 740il | 9/97 build | schwarz 2 | sandbeige | 5AT | 270k
    '04 330i ZHP sedan | Mystic blue | Alcantara | 6MT | 120k
    '00 540i sport | Titanium silver | Black | 5AT | 152k
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  23. #23
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    And an update.

    It was, indeed, the tires.

    Abnormal tire wear was a symptom - of the fact that the steering wheel needed to stay ten degrees to the left to have the car go straight because the right front tire was messed up. Thus the front wheels scrubbed (obviously) and got abnormal wear.

    After replacing the two front tires (and rims - I had some M Par extras) the car simply.. behaves as it should. Well, almost: the two fronts are original BMW spares with... original DOTs. And one has been used to hold up a parts car so it's flatspotted significantly.

    As a final belt-and-suspenders move, I took it to a less-local alignment shop. They confirmed that there was nothing wrong with the suspension and that the alignment was almost perfect and certainly good enough. The only thing that remains out of spec somewhat is that caster is about 0.3 lower than it should be, but there is no way to fix that without adjustable top strut mounts. I have no idea why the caster is out, I did not touch the struts or the mounts, which are original BTW (and due for replacement sometime next month... 107kmi on stock struts make the car less than great to drive).

    They corrected the left rear toe that was off by 0.04 (still in spec), thus bringing the thrust angle to 0.00. Rear camber was set to 1.5" (it was 1.4 before, still in spec). They did close the toe in the front a very small amount - about 0.10 total - because they said that the car feels more stable that way. I didn't entirely agree but let them do it - it's still within spec, you just increase the dead feeling at small angles, not my favourite. OTOH, it is true that the car feels less 'darty', so to speak.

    I have to admit I would never have thought that almost-new tires from a primary manufacturer that looked perfect from the outside could have this detrimental an effect. I most assuredly learned something.

    Oh and. The car had started the usual shimmy at 45-50MPH. Yes, the one that tends to indicate that the front control arm bushings are done. It made no sense, everything is new... and sure enough, that is gone also.

    The alignment shop - Tony's in Newark, NJ, BTW - confirmed that all this was somewhat unusual as to degree, but not unheard of. They also had choice words about Toyo tires (not my choice.. I found them on the car I bought for the rims and since they were new, I figured I'd try using them - a mistake, it turned out).

    So thank you folks - I would have gone nuts taking the car apart without the suggestion here to check the tires first. I'm left wondering why I have 4.9 caster in the front (both sides)... but I'll wait until I change the shocks to worry about that. The car behaves now.

    PS: racer2086, you got the history more or less right. The first shop didn't get the alignment right, but I think that was their technician that didn't pay attention. I then swapped the winters for the summer and it was still 'not quite right but not very bad'. Then I went to shop two.. and they fixed the alignment. When I drove it out of there, it was fine. Evidently, in the following 500-600 miles, the front tires simply failed internally, causing a very pronounced issue. I then swapped on new fronts, the problems went away and shop number three confirmed that shop number two had gotten it right, modulo what I mentioned above. Oh and, I agree. Aligning these cars is not rocket science. It's one of the (few) things that works better in Europe, where I have never seen a KDS alignment shop but I have had BMWs track straight, consistently, with no undue tire wear, at 250+kmh...

  24. #24
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    I don't want to rain on your parade. Really. But...

    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    ...the front tires simply failed internally..
    This is doubtful.

    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    ...I'm left wondering why I have 4.9 caster in the front (both sides).
    This is the problem source, and I think the abnormal tire wear will return.

    Quote Originally Posted by nmlss2006 View Post
    ... but I'll wait until I change the shocks to worry about that.
    Strut position is determined by the combination of the control arm and thrust arm. Unless the upper strut mount has failed (unlikely), I doubt changing shocks will accomplish anything. Like me, you'll probably need caster/camber plates to correct this. I'm afraid your new tires and a re-alignment are only a band-aid.

    Please carefully read my experience in this thread.

    As for why this out-of-spec situation develops I don't know. I do know it was the source of much trouble and expense for me.

    Frankie
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    frankies-bmw.com

  25. #25
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    Frankie, I have to disagree.

    Tires can internally fail with a separated belt. I've actually had that happen multiple times. It becomes very evident as a vibration in the car that makes you think a control arm is bad, since the tire is essentially out of round. Depending upon how the belt separates, it can cause a pull. This often happens with older tires, but my mother's 535 had a belt separate on a very new rear run-flat tire that made the car vibrate on the highway like a massage chair. Crazy.

    We always want our numbers in spec from an alignment, but if caster is off on the front there are no adjustments. It is strut related, because the strut is the primary guide and load bearing for the front wheel spindle. The control arms simply provide lateral and frontal support and maintain suspension geometry with suspension movement. The key is that the caster (or camber) is off equally left to right. If one side is out more than another, that can cause pull symptoms.

    Also, caster as little to no effect on tire wear. It is simply where the wheel is positioned front-to-back in the wheel well. Higher positive caster contributes to high speed stability and return of the wheel after a turn. I can imagine caster being affected with worn struts, mounts, or it's position in the spindle (there is a minor amount of movement that can happen when the pinch bolt is loose or if the mounting ear is welded a little off, it'll cause the strut to sit in a different position). Changing ride height can also have an effect, since the strut doesn't sit perfectly straight up and down in the spindle.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I read your thread you linked about your tire wear, Frankie. You had uneven caster right to left, which will cause a pull. Once that happens, you will need to steer the car away from the pull and scrub your tires off, just like nmlss2006. If your caster was off but equal left-to-right, you wouldn't have had a pull and consequently no tire wear because caster doesn't wear tires.

    So if nmlss2006 got his alignment and the caster was off equally left-to-right, he should be fine and there should be no pull or tire wear. I assume they are equal, since he said he doesn't have a pull. nmlss2006, is this correct?
    Last edited by racer2086; 10-10-2018 at 02:23 PM.
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