Time for a new 7.

[Swordsman]

Hi guys (and gals)! I've been absent from the forums for a L-O-N-G time but, when I was active, lived here on the e38 forums. I've been driving a 2000 750iL e38 12-cylinder as my daily driver for 11 years. Lucky me! However, now that my baby has 212,000 miles on it and is almost old enough to buy beer, I can see I'm going to need a new daily ride.

I have been checking out the F1/F2 and am specifically looking at a 2013 750Li xDrive with about 80,000 miles, which I would plan to purchase with a four-year bumper-to-bumper exclusionary extended warranty.

Any advice on whether I should buy this or not? Any advice on what to look for, test, etc. before buying? This isn't my first rodeo, so I know to look for cars with a good maintenance history, no accidents, no repossessions, etc., but I'm not familiar with the specifics to look for or avoid in the newer 7-series.

Note: I posted this question on the F01/F02 forum but I'm not sure if anyone is there. How is it possible for the 2009 and later model-year forum to have only two pages of posts while we have 64 pages? Is the F01/F02 really that much less of an enthusiasts car than the e38? Is there no equivalent to e38.org for this model?

Also, I may soon be selling my baby, shown below. With these kinds of miles and such, I'm planning to sell the car as a drive-able project car or parts car. I have neither the time nor skills to part it out, but if someone here does, you can probably make some good coin. I'll be asking less than $2000.

Thanks in advance!

[uinvyme]

Are you going to post photos?

Sent from my SPH-L720 using Tapatalk

[Swordsman]

It isn't for sale yet, so the photos below will have to do for now. I'm still driving it! These photos are from when I bought it myself. As I'm planning to sell it as a drive-able project car or parts car, I'm not planning to detail it.

[uinvyme]

I see them now. they wouldnt pop up on my phone

[Breaker38]

Biggest issue with the F01s and 02s is the stem seal issue, but LCI I believe it got considerably better.
Drove a couple myself and the 750 has plenty of go but it is big! And it feels big, be sure your happy with it suiting where you live and drive. E38 is a bit like a 5 series these days.
I am just selling a Audi V10 S8 after a couple of years and had been looking for a replacement as well. If it was going to be BMW it would have been a F01 750 but to be frank it’s just a bit boring to me, but to heavy and a bit to removed from the driving experience. I’ve recently just got a Jaguar XJL 5.0 NA and it’s character and style IMO have left the F01 behind, is it a better car overall, probably not. Do I want to drive it everyday and feel good in it, yip. Reminds me most of the E38 750 which I’ve keep. Good luck with looking it’s an adventure!
CDD3556C-D707-4794-BDCA-D66B6570A1DD.jpeg774C5E1F-2FCB-45E4-88CC-FA3C27AA37BF.jpgD49738B6-9755-472E-96D3-8526DFDBFC55.jpeg

[Qsilver7]

My biggest caution is to know the histrionic maladies of the N62, N62TU, & N63 V8 engines...they are well documented and discussed. The N63TU seems to be doing better...but check out if any F01 models got the N63Tu or did it appear in the G1 7 series.

If the issues are more than you want to deal with (or check out prior to purchase) you may want to look at the V12 (F02) model. If you do decide to roll the dice with the 750i...then know what to look out for or be prepared if symptoms start appearing in regards to the engine.

Good luck.

[KenR740]

Biggest issue with the F01s and 02s is the stem seal issue, but LCI I believe it got considerably better.
Drove a couple myself and the 750 has plenty of go but it is big! And it feels big, be sure your happy with it suiting where you live and drive. E38 is a bit like a 5 series these days.
I am just selling a Audi V10 S8 after a couple of years and had been looking for a replacement as well. If it was going to be BMW it would have been a F01 750 but to be frank it’s just a bit boring to me, but to heavy and a bit to removed from the driving experience. I’ve recently just got a Jaguar XJL 5.0 NA and it’s character and style IMO have left the F01 behind, is it a better car overall, probably not. Do I want to drive it everyday and feel good in it, yip. Reminds me most of the E38 750 which I’ve keep. Good luck with looking it’s an adventure!

Wow, you absolutely, perfectly summed up my impressions of driving the F02 750. My wife and have test driven them at BMW events the last couple of years and we felt the same way. It's big, boring, heavy and removed from the driving experience. We liked the 5 series a lot better. I'm in the market now and was thinking of getting an N54 F01 to avoid the problems with the 8 cylinder engine but given your insight, I'm going to take a close look at the Jaguar. Thanks!

[Swordsman]

Thanks for all the input so far. Very helpful.

So far as I can tell online, the 2013 model year used the N63B44O1 (N63TU) twin-turbo V8 engine, putting out 443bhp and 480 ft-lbs of torque, as compared to the 322bhp and 361 ft-lbs of my current V12. The 750Li xDrive weighs 4800 lbs versus the 4,600 lbs of the 750iL, mostly due to the additional weight of the xDrive all-wheel drive system. These figures result lbs/HP of 14.3 for the e38 versus 10.8 for the F02, which is a remarkable difference. In terms of torque, the ratios are 12.8 for the e38 and 10.0 for the F02, so the newer car would seem to win the torque and power contest while also providing all-wheel drive and remarkably better fuel economy.

Yes, I have considered the 760Li also but these are holding their value better than in the past, so they are both too expensive for the same model year and were not available with xDrive (they are now). As I live in Vermont, I figured the all-wheel drive was more important to me than a few extra HP, given that even the V8 is offering more than what I have now. My mechanic also suggested to stay away from the V12, so I'm surprised to hear that it is considered more reliable than the V8. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to trade in my NA V12 for a twin turbo V12, but the initial cost, the lack of xDrive, and the truly pitiful fuel economy of the turbo V12 are pushing me in the direction of the V8.

I went for a few test drives with my son before concluding the 2013 750Li xDrive was the likely choice. It is interesting, Breaker38, that you mentioned the Audi S8 because this was one of the cars we drove, a 2007 that was being offered at a pretty good price because it had been repaired after a rear-end collision.

* The first car we drove, though, was the 535d xDrive, since I was interested to check out legendary low-end torque of the V6 turbodiesel. It was a great car and had plenty of pick-up, even weighing in at 4056lbs empty. I really thought that this would be the standard for our other tests to beat.

* The next car was the 2007 Audi S8. I had not considered an Audi before but found this car in my research and was intrigued by the V10. What a sweet car! It was different in character from what I was used to, but felt far roomier than the 5-series while remaining remarkably quick. I am a bit put off by the 11-year age of the car, though. I only buy a car about every 10 years and drive them until over 200,000 miles. I looked at more recent S8's and they are out of my price range. I have looked at Audi A8 L also but have not driven one. For some reason, they seem to hold their value better than the BMWs and so more recent model years are too expensive for me.

* The last car we drive was a 2016 BMW 750Li xDrive, since the dealership didn't have any older ones and I was really looking to assess the overall size (front and back seat room) and driving dynamics, which have not changed all that much in three years. The engine and 8-speed automatic transmission are the same, or at least very similar. I had to say that the 7-series carried the bell away for me. It wasn't even close, especially when I put my 6'4" son in the back seat. It certainly beat out the other two cars we tested and I didn't feel especially disconnected from the road.

I looked into the differences in the model years and concluded that the 2013 model year would give me the later, less troublesome engine while remaining more affordable than a 2014 or 2015, which are not substantially different. The car I'm actually looking at right now is this one in North Carolina. Hopefully it is not under water after Florence.

Since coming to this conclusion, I have discovered the Audi A8 L and also the BMW 650i Gran Coupe, which I would love to drive also before making my very final purchase decision. The 650i shares the same engine and transmission as the 750Li and only weighs 200lbs less than the 7-series, and I may be giving up a LOT of room in the rear seat, so it almost appears the main difference is the external appearance of the limousine 7 versus the couple-like 6 . (By contrast, the 5-series is nearly 750lbs lighter, though I have already determined that the back seat is too cramped. The 550i xDrive must be mighty quick, having the same engine and transmission as the 750Li but a whole lot less weight.) The Audi A8 L may have none of these shortcomings and the W12 version is truly mouthwatering, but again they have been holding their value and may be too expensive. Finding Audi's in my color has also been very hard as, like with many BMW models, people seem to prefer black-on-black or silver-on-black to an almost ludicrous extent. (BMW today offers at least 5 different versions of "black", only one blue, and no green at all and the Audi is much the same.) Still, I have found a few and the Audi A8 L in blue over grey is pretty sharp. I might consider this one.

[clarkitect]

That 750Li in NC is sweet. I’d take it over the A8 which just looks pretty bland with those wheels. I think the peeler wheels are nicer. Both cars seem to have reputations for high maintenance cost. What are you thinking of buying for a warranty?

I too am having to search for my car’s replacement. Kind of waiting for a colleage to sell his 2014 535i xdrive but not so sure about the AWD aspect. Really have never had trouble with the RWD and traction control with decent winter tires. The again I avoid any deep snow or dirt roads.

Good luck with the search.

[MKIVJZA80]

if you did fine with the 750 with just DSC/ASC for all those years, a newer 7 without x drive shouldn't be a problem.

[740il97g]

So I had a 2011 550xi. Its life ended at 89k. I loved everything about the car besides the reliability of the n63. It burned a quart of oil every 700 miles. Several coolant leaks. I wrenched that car almost as much as my 98 750il. The power from the n63 paired with an 8 speed is a beautiful mix. Even with the slightly improved n63tu. The overall design of motor is problematic. To much heat generated by the turbos located in a bad location. The y coolant hose under turbo will break. Injectors will fail at some point. At 80k it will need valve stems really soon as well as a turbo rebuild. Walnut blasting also do to the huge carbon build up problem this car has. Once you maintain those problems the number of catastrophic failure requiring a new motor is huge. I lost sleep over buying a 2014 750li. The twin turbo v8s power is wonderful. But if I where to do it again I would hunt down a 740i m sport. I would say the n55 will give you a bit more piece of mind. The power is good. Even better with a decent tune. ( Side note a guy in the 5 series forum create a aftermarket oil cooler for the n63 which should increase the life of the motor. A lot people are seeing better reliability with it.

[aom7]

Swordsman, I'm a board moderator for a F0x board with very high traffic. I'm going to do you a favor and you can pay me back another time... unless it's a 2014 or 2015, don't buy it. Even with the extended warranty. Get the 740i as others have mentioned if you want another 7 but don't want to get into a 2014/2015. Those have had "fewer" issues but they still are having them and I suspect as THEY get up there in miles, they'll have a lot.

[Swordsman]

clarkitect: Yes, both cars have reputations that when something breaks, it costs a fortune to repair or replace. What is different is that the BMW with the N63, even the N63TU, seems to have a worse reputation, with a long litany of known issues with the engine design that don't seem to have their analog on the D4 Audi A8L, which was made from 2010 to 2017. This is what is giving me pause on the BMW. I myself prefer the exterior look of the BMW, but I admit there are others who prefer the understated Audi look. The interiors seem to be very similar with perhaps some edge to be given the Audi according to most reviewers. The NC dealer can set me up with a warranty through a company called Cars Protection Plus out of Marysville, PA. He quoted me $4,000 for a four-year, unlimited miles, exclusionary warranty and sent me the paperwork for it. However, the warranties as described on the company's website are different, something I would have to reconcile before I sign up. I also have not done all the research one must do on a warranty company before forking over this kind of money.

MKIVJZA80: I can't disagree with you in face of the evidence. I have to admit that the all-wheel drive is a "want" as opposed to an absolute need. Our other car IS all-wheel drive and I can tell you there were times I left the 750iL at home and drove the minivan because of that.

740il87g: Your experience seems to agree with a lot I have read, especially really excessive oil burning even in new cars, coolant leaks, oil leaks, injector issues, valve stem service, and carbon build-up, all issues that seem to be common to the N63, of whatever version, and not on the Audi. To be sure, I expect the Audi has issues of its own but I have not heard any consistent stories of the same, very expensive issues from many owners of the same engine as I have with the N63. Perhaps I'm just better connected with the BMW community and have better knowledge of the 750Lix's flaws than I do of the Audi's, though the Audi's flaws are still there. I don't know.

aom7: Thanks very much for your well-intended and well-informed advice. Why the 2014 and not 2013? I thought the engine change was made for the 2013 model year, from the N63 to the N63TU and it does not appear the engine was changed again, to the N63TU2, until 2016 and that update seemed pretty minor. Most of the reported issues with this car are on the engine and the engine appears to be the same in 2013 as it is in 2014 and 2015, the model years you are recommending.

To All: I only buy a car about every 10 years or so. I generally purchase them 5-6 years old with middling to high miles, 75,000 to 100,000 in general. I get a warranty if I can, which has paid off handsomely for me in the past. My 750iL has made me a BMW fanboy, despite some gut-wrenching expenses in the first year (fortunately mostly paid by the warranty) and I am hesitant to switch brands to Audi. However, everything I've learned so far seems to imply the Audi is more likely to give me 10 years and 120,000 miles of service, and with fewer repairs, though all the ones there are will be costly for either car. I'm still more than willing to take some advice, especially from anyone with experience with Audi A8 L 4.0L twin-turbo D4, like I am considering.

[aom7]

Swordsman, primarily 2013 had some teething issues as the first generation of that engine. We are still seeing instances of that particular year getting engine replacements or other high dollar work done to it. The one thing with the F0x that I hadn't noticed with the E38, is that it's still at that age where repairs are very expensive (due to parts cost) and there are a lot more things that can go wrong.

And frankly, the engine area runs too hot and the rubbers and plastics are under-designed for the temps it works in. I mean, they put an engine cover on top of the engine, which effectively reflects heat back into it, causing all the hoses to get even more brittle and hard, they also put not ONE but BOTH turbos in the V of the engine, so it get nice and hot too.

Also, the 740i is only about .5 seconds slower than the 750, for what it's worth, and would still be faster than your 750il, by almost 2 seconds.

[Aitch]

Yeah I understand the benefits of a "hot-V" turbo setup, but in terms of longevity it always felt like a sub-optimal design.

[Swordsman]

Yeah, I've read lots of comments about the "V" setup for the turbos. Interestingly, the Audi I'm looking at uses the same configuration but there are few or no complaints about these same kinds of issues. There is a well-known vibration problem at 1000 and 3000 rpm on the Audi's that is dealt with by replacing the exhaust downpipes, but I haven't heard of a systemic litany of common complaints about the Audi, other than that when it DOES break, it is very expensive. I would imagine that would be said of the BMW too.

If I were to get a 740, I would look at the 740Ld. Any comments on that one?

[burninator]

I remember when we were both posting a lot more in this subforum. I wish I had the space for that 750iL of yours at that price.

I don't think we got the F01/02 in diesel flavor in North America.

[740il97g]

Yeah, I've read lots of comments about the "V" setup for the turbos. Interestingly, the Audi I'm looking at uses the same configuration but there are few or no complaints about these same kinds of issues. There is a well-known vibration problem at 1000 and 3000 rpm on the Audi's that is dealt with by replacing the exhaust downpipes, but I haven't heard of a systemic litany of common complaints about the Audi, other than that when it DOES break, it is very expensive. I would imagine that would be said of the BMW too.

If I were to get a 740, I would look at the 740Ld. Any comments on that one?

Yea I've never seen a 7 diesel state side. Plenty of 5 series diesel though. check out the Jaquar XJL also I have heard nothing but good things about that car.

[Aitch]

Question - any interest in a newer Lexus LS? I have seen a few nicely modified ones driving near me. I know the older ones have a reputation for being fairly bulletproof (Toyota quality). Might that be an option?

[Swordsman]

Lexus might be an option, but not for me. I guess I'm more or less fixed on a German car at this point. I've been scared away from the Jaguars due to their notoriously bad reliability. I'm not sure if that impression from many years ago is still true, but it sticks with me. I haven't considered MB for the same reason - they make some seriously nice automobiles but are rather notorious for all the stuff that can go wrong and costs a fortune to fix, not too different from these cars I'm considering, if I'm honest with myself, but worse by reputation anyway. To me, I've always seen BMW as the younger guy's car and MB the older guy's car, though I admit this is plain bias on my part.

[clarkitect]

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...0669/overview/

How much of a project is your E38?

[Swordsman]

How much of a project depends on your skill and resourcefulness. The car is in the shop and needs a rebuilt ECM that is going to set me back about $1000, plus the labor I've already sunk into it to diagnose the issue, plus a driver-side front window switch and high-visibility brake light. All together, it may set me back about $1850 to get the car back on the road, keeping in mind I've already got nearly $500 into it even if I scrap the car (this $500 is included in the $1850).

Once driveable, the car will still not pass inspection. There are two known issues. The first is that I stupidly replaced ONE cat when I should have replaced both. The computer has never liked that the left and right cats are mismatched and has put up a SES light ever since. Anyone with good access to a salvage yard (or another 750iL parts car) can fix this by replacing the exhaust system. [Note: it is illegal to sell used catalytic converters but, interestingly, NOT illegal to sell an entire exhaust system from the manifolds back, which of course includes the cats.] It is certainly possible to purchase this if you go to the salvage yard yourself, rather more difficult if you expect it to be shipped. Replacing the cats with a used but matching pair should clear the SES code, but I myself do NOT have either a parts car or access to a salvage yard with one or more V12 BMWs in it, such as would be the case for example in Houston or many other major metro areas. This car uses heated cats, so you cannot just go down to Midas and have them put in some cheap crap and pass inspection. The SES light will stay on. I've heard it is possible to have the computer reprogrammed to allow regular cats to be used, but I have not pursued that myself.

The other issue is an airbag light, which has been traced to one of the side airbags in the passenger-side rear door. I have already replaced the airbag twice with used ones plus replaced the door wiring harness and there is still a problem. Someone with more skill than I have, or who has access to better advice than I can get, may be able to fix it but I myself would have to take it to a dealer and the cost would probably be more than the car is worth, everything else taken into account.

Of course, the car is 19 years old and shows the normal wear and tear, including a slight sag in the headliner in the rear, various broken or worn interior parts like the cup holder, etc., but with these fixes would pass inspection and give someone the joy of driving the wonderful V12.

[Swordsman]

And the verdict is IN!

My wife and I drove three hours to southern CT today to drive a 2013 Audi A8. The year and model were fine, but this particular car did not appear to be well taken care of. It also had a well-known problem (vibration at 1000 and 3000 rpm) that had not been fixed. It had plenty of get up and go and all that and the interior was nice and roomy, I have to say.

However, with the A8L now fresh in my mind, I wanted to take my wife out in a 750Li xDrive and also at least look at the 650i Gran Coupe like has been suggested to me. I found a dealer that had both cars, so we drove another 30 minutes to get there. They were very accommodating. The 650i was a non-starter from the very beginning. The back seat had no more leg room than a 5-series and possibly not even that much. Further, it was VERY hard to get into and out of it. I can't believe they ever sell any of those to men 6' tall or more.

So, we took my wife out in the 7-series and I immediately concluded that this 7 had the Audi beat cold. I can't believe the reviews I saw online gushing about the Audi A8L, placing it above the 750Li. They must be diehard Audi-philes or on drugs. To me the 7 was much more "me" than the 5, 6, or the Audi. So my decision is made.

Sadly, another decision we made is to try to baby my 750iL through the winter and buy the new-to-me 750Li xDrive in the spring, maybe by the end of March if I find the right one. So that is the plan. For those hoping to pick up my baby cheap as a parts or project car, you'll have to wait a few months longer.

Thanks for your advice and support!

[MKIVJZA80]

what issues is the 750iL having requiring it to need a new ECM? will you get it sorted or just sell it as is?

[740ilDuke]

As to the heated cats - only on US cars does that kick the check engine light - the bad is that the EKAT module located under the passenger seat that runs the elements in the cats is no longer made - cats rarely fail - the module is typically/always the culprit - the good, dudmd can tune the car (DME's) and remove the line of code that points to the EKAT module. He did this on my previous 2001 750iL, worked great. Incidentally - the battery switch module is also not made anymore (on the side of the dual battery setup) Which is one reason im in a 07/98 750iL. No ekat modules. No dual batteries. No battery module. The only "option" I dont have is the "massage" seats and lit door handles.

I keep looking at F class BMW's and have heard good things about the 3.5 6 cyl both gas and diesel. My folks drive a 2010 750Li with around 140k on the clock. In 50k miles they have replaced one of the 3 fuel pumps and add 1 quart of oil monthly on average. Average age of 70, so nobody is pushing the car hard. My mom's old boss offered his 2012 to her yesterday for $14k with 80k miles. But as little as they drive, i doubt she will bite. The 760Li looks like a pile of fun, only to be owned with a massive aftermarket warranty. Looks like I will be riding my E38s for awhile. No car payment is nice!

That V12 you have will tread into the 400-500k range as I've read. But, I understand the urge to get something newer. I quenched a good bit of that with the NBT retrofit in my 01' Dinan.