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Mine is no where near that big, it just has a large tank.
I torqued the m54b30 damper on last night and used Loctite 660 on the interface of the shaft and damper.
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I runs. It has been a long time coming but I finally started my engine up which was the whole reason I bought this car. This is a new build so I was a bit anxious about the first start and everything holding together. The exhaust and coolant system isn't on it so I wasn't comfortable running for more then a few seconds. With no exhaust it sounded angry as hell but it seemed to have a steady idle. I still have a couple of holes in the floor to fix, one near the fuel tank so there is no sense in putting the driveshaft or exhaust in yet.
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My exhaust and cooling system is now in place so I have been able to run the engine a bit more. I have some coolant in the system but it is far from bled yet. It holds an idle around 600 rpm but is a little rougher than the m52b28 in my sedan. I need to figure out at what point does the motor leave the closed loop and enter into open loop fuel control. It actually seems to run rougher after it has idled for a couple of minutes which leads me to suspect it is rougher in open loop. This motor's displacement and intake cam have both been changed without touching the ECU so I don't expect perfection but hope the system will learn and adapt otherwise I may need some remapping. On the plus side, I'm pretty confident that the motor assembly went well. The car isn't registered yet so I need to get some plates on it and break this stroker in.
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Use INPA or other to reset adaptations.
Nice work!
Need pics!
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I will have to shoot a video, pictures don't reveal a thing other than the barely visible engine block is bright red.
Honestly, the most impressive part of this engine at the moment is how clean it is. My oil pan is as clean as can be.
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Yes we need pictures to live vicariously !Originally Posted by gdavid
Nice job so far
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
This car is AWESOME !!!
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I documented the engine build on this thread:
https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/s...mber-first-e36
There is a fair amount of discussion from people planning to build m50b30's or m52b30's but there isn't much discussion after the fact. Either people aren't posting their results or the builds never happen in the first place (which I suspect is more likely). I'd be happy to answer any questions about mine. I copied what others have done but there were a lot of little decisions to make. I've spent a fair amount of time on it but far more time researching and thinking about it along the way. Most of the toughest decisions along the way had nothing to do with changing the displacement rather compromises on what to replace, what to reuse, what to upgrade. Every project needs to make compromises along the way unless you are willing to drop $15k+ into an obsolete motor for a car worth ~$5k. Practically every engine build is different because of these different decisions.
It may sound odd, but my primary goal was reliability rather than performance. This is far from the best bang for your buck in terms of horsepower. I wanted a fresh engine that did not burn or leak oil, no tapping valves and wasn't covered in rust or road grime. I wanted fresh rings, bearings, seals and gaskets. The basic overhaul parts are about $300-400 assuming you are not upgrading to ARP head or main studs (which I did not). As long as I was digging that far into the engine I decided to make it a bit more interesting with the m54b30 rotating assembly and intake cam which only added cost. I also wanted to do this with a spare engine so I could take my time rather than having my car torn apart. Considering the level of effort involved, I'm sure most people would consider the compromises I made to be ridiculous but I had to draw the line somewhere. My major compromises and rational include:
Head Gasket: I used a REINZ conventional head basket, based on my research, with proper prep and no increase in compression it should do just fine and can be changed without pulling the engine.
Head Bolts: I used OEM which was a compromise between what comes with some HG kits and ARP, I figure it would suit my needs and could be upgraded later without much effort.
Main Bolts: I reused the originals, this is against BMW and Bentley guidance but according to my calculations, the torque applied to these bolts does not approach the yield tensile strength of these bolts and replacement is unnecessary. I suspect that in most cases BMW recommends replacement so they have fresh thread locking compound which is pre-applied to many critical fasteners. I used red Loctite and really hope I don't regret this decision, in retrospect I could have bought new from a fastener vendor with the same or higher grade for a reasonable cost (can't remember how much) and I would do this next time.
Rod and main bearings: I used OEM, there are race quality upgrades out there but these engines don't generally wear bearings much. I've seen some extremely low budget builds that reused the old shells but I'm not that cheap and this is a foreign crank going into this block with rods that are also foreign to it.
Lifters (hydraulic valve adjusters, tappets): I used new but not OEM. bought off of ebay. I attempted to disassemble a set I had but wasn't getting anywhere and since the intake was going to be foreign, I wanted new. OEM would have been astronomically expensive but would be the way to go for a no expense build (then again a no expense build would use new trays).
Valves: I hand lapped the valves rather than getting a 3 angle grind. I could have upgraded the valves themselves or even gotten crazy and enlarged the seats but that is not the kind of build this is.
Valve springs: I measured the existing and reused them. I would have liked to upgraded to S52 or better but cost is a factor.
Valve guides: I cleaned but didn't replace. I would have needed a machinist do this for me and the didn't seem to allow excessive end play.
Timing chain: I reused it, I haven't heard of chain stretch with these engines but I did replace the guides.
Harmonic Damper: After hearing some horror stories of them coming loose I decided to use a M54b30 unit. Neither a new OEM and certainly not a $800 ATI were in the budget. My own conclusion is the problem is not the Jesus bolt stretching or the rubber going bad but a loose fit between the S52/M54b30 crank and the m50/m52/s50/s52 damper. This loose fits leaves the Jesus bolt to do all of the work to keep the damper centered and from wobbling which is exhibited at high rpm's especially when the rev limit is raised. I simply don't buy replacing the Jesus bolt as the solution, most people may not agree with me but this is my investment and decision so I went with the m54b30 damper which is a slightly snugger fit in my limited experience and improved the fit with Loctite 660 which is made for such uses, it's not generally sold locally but available online. I'll have so see how this works out. As long as I keep an eye on this, it would be relatively easy to change at a later date.
Machine work: I didn't end up having any done, the shop checked the head for me but did not recommend resurfacing. The donor motor's head was warped beyond use per the machine shop. Had I known this I probably won't have started the project, it appeared beautiful. Fortunately I found another for cheap and it checked out ok. I had a miscommunication with the shop and expected them to clean it up for me (at a cost of course) but they just inspected it and recommended nothing. In addition to removing and cleaning all of the valves to a like new appearance, I removed all carbon from the ports but did not "port" the head. Valve stem seals were replace of course. As mentioned above I hand lapped the valves. I did hone the cylinder wall with an old school, 3 stone type with a flexible shaft. This was primarily to smooth the top of the cylinder where the old compression ring stopped (the m54b30 compression ring is higher)
Vanos: I replaced the seals with the Besian system rings but didn't do the anti-rattle kit.
Tune: Bone stock for now
Intake: M52, I want good street manors with torque down low, with no plans to retune in the near future I stuck with the m52 manifold
So for better or worse, these are the decisions I made. I'll be able to report back how it holds up when I get some tags and run it on the road.
Last edited by gdavid; 10-26-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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Did you ever test the flow rate of the rebuilt injectors that you bought? How did it compare to the old injectors that you flushed out ?
Alan
p.s. Nice thread. Vivid descriptions - great to read along.
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I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I didn't. By the time they arrived I was so close to finally firing up this thing that I just put them in. I will pull one out at some point and check it, it will probably look just like the ones I pulled out of it. My method of testing was probably not providing enough pressure but I should try again. It would be nice to know if my spare set is good to go or need to be cleaned properly.
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So, recently I found that my injectors were leaking (like all of them). So I bought for ~$65 a set of used and flow matched injectors, saw that they did a poor job of removing the rust and that the pintle caps were not big enough for the nozzle so I returned them. Then ordered a set of brand new china knock off injectors, saw youtube vids they seemed fine, installed them in the fuel rail and ran the fuel pump to pressure test them, one leaked badly. So they got returned... and here I am waited for another set of new ones from another seller which of course I will pressure test. I still have my originals that I will test again in the fuel rail while I wait for the next set, I would like to run them for a while in my small (50w or 60w) ultrasonic cleaner. Then use a can of cleaner to flush them a few times, the simplest way to hook up a can of cleaner is the put electrical tape on the red tube from the cleaner and taper it off so that it makes a tight connection with the injector. I would like to get a small signal generator board off ebay to use to cycle the injectors, found one that had good power capabilities but poor instructions for like $4 but would have to wait for china delivery.
For others that don't want to bother with putting another set of injectors or have weird problems that your not sure with the symptoms what the issue is I would suggest to run a different injector cleaner like twice a year.
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Did you buy injectors from a seller with high/numerous ratings ?
What causes an injector to leak ? Maybe if we understood this, we could (eventually) fix them better ourselves seeing as it is the amount of crapistan injectors being sold out there.
The base state of the injector is closed to fuel flow. When it is powered by the ecu, a tiny solenoid in the injector energises and moves, opening a channel to fuel flow. Then current is switched off, and a spring (that was compressed earlier) pushes the solenoid back into the closed position, cutting off fuel. This is presumably against the pressure of the fuel behind the injector.
So the injector does not actually inject anything. It opens and closes a door.
So either the spring is too weak to push the solenoid back fully, or there is a dirt particle or something stuck that prevents full closure.
If its the spring that is not fixable for sure. It would also mean that used injectors should not be purchased because their springs would have already become weak.
If its not the spring but just dirt maybe it can be cleaned ? Maybe the cleaning methods currently being used are not correct. Speculating here, but perhaps the microfilter in the injector would need to be removed, then the injector flushed forward and backward, and then a new filter put in and then we are golden and if this works for one leaking injector in the set then we can assume that all the injectors have good springs and can invest the effort to clean them all out in the same way.
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I think they fail like most valves, deposits build up and prevent them from sealing and spraying right, just like hard water in a shower head or valve. The ones I bought were Chinese "rebuilds", they are used units in a ultrasonic cleaner. They claim they are flow matched but I doubt they are tested at all. The seller had a lot of good feedback but I really need to pull and test them. I used a syringe and hose to provide pressurized seafoam to them. There are four holes but I only saw two streams from each injector and it looked nothing like the YouTube videos I saw using carb cleaner. I don't know if I wasn't getting enough pressure or the videos looked different because the carb cleaner is already aerosolized prior to going through the injector.
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David, do you think leaky injectors are salvageable ?
Ultrasonic cleaning. Hmm Maybe the microfilter needs to be removed, then the injector put on a pulsing device while backflushed, then immersed in an ultrasonic cleaner while being pulsed. Maybpulsing is not required, just flush it open for abit, then closed, then ultrasonically clean when opened, then closed.
Beats me but if we can come up with a good idea, maybe you or Eric could test it out on your leaky injectors for the Good of the Bimmerworld and create a technique that actually works. Normal flushing and backflushing with carb cleaner clearly doesn't fix leaking injectors.
Member
Yeah, a hand syringe is not going to provide the pressure needed. I hooked mine up to the fuel rail and removed the fuel pump relay to energize the pump. Just be careful of sparks lol.
Alang1990, you can watch a zillion youtube vid's on cleaning fuel injectors, professional and home brewed rigs. The important thing in the end is that they flow the same amount (and don't leak on their own).
One other issue I saw with the new china injectors was that the injection molding had made its way up the power terminals on the injector, so I had to scrape that off. But I saw that as a good thing because it confirmed that they were new and not a clever refurb.
If you refurb your own injectors you have to get a set of new o-rings and filters as well as the pintle caps. The pintle caps on the pink injectors have a larger orifice opening, one time I got a set and the opening was small and the seller had to make things right. These kits are fairly cheap but now when you see people selling refurbed injectors or even new ones for so cheap it makes it a tough decision.
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Here is a pic with the two different pintle caps.
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Just unplug the coils first and sparks are taken care of.
I agree. That's probably why its best to figure out a foolproof way to rebuild your own leaking injectors because, since its already on the engine, and likely original, you can assume they were flow matched at the very beginning and the only differences are due to blockage and leakage.
Its always nice to get new o rings, new microfilters are essential, but the pintle cap is worthless. Its only purpose is to hold the o ring in place so that it doesn't come loose and fall into the manifold when removing the injector. The engine runs fine without it and you can dump it won't matter. The o ring seals the port, the fuel rail's bolts ensure the injector is inserted in at the correct angle into the port. Can reuse the old pintle caps.
shade tree mechanic
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No, Sir,
When the vehicle engine is shut down, some of the intake valves will naturally be left open. This allows the heat inside the cylinder to rise past the intake valve to the injector area (Fig. 6). There may still be some residue of fuel on the pintle tip of the injector, which protrudes from the end of the injector. The heat begins to bake this residue of fuel onto the injector pintle. This leads to a buildup over time that causes poor fuel spray, lean mixtures, poor driveability and high emissions.
A pintle cap has been used by some manufacturers to try to reduce the deposits on these style injectors. These pintle caps have many different designs. Some of these are shown in Figure 7. http://www.tomco-inc.com/Tech_Tips/ttt37.pdf
The special fin version pintle cap was/is used by BMW and also Volkswagen on some models of similar built year, pupose/idea is that the fins easier break up the deposits on the pintle caps.
You should also not re-use old pintle caps because after they are used they get very brittle, so there is a good chance that it will break and fall off.
Last edited by shogun; 10-27-2018 at 07:33 AM.
Shogun tricks and tips for the E32 series are HERE!
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Shogun,
You are a fountain of knowledge.
I read the article. It looks like the pintle caps are there to provide an additional larger and (microscopically speaking) rougher surface for the fuel vapours to bake on.
But I don't fully buy the premise there. Any deposits that are baked on the injector tips are blown out immediately during the next start up, and thus deposits can't really build up to the point where they affect the injector. But the pintle caps are dirt cheap to replace so I guess I will do that from now. I have the caps on my injectors anyway. Thanks.
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Also pintle caps get hard and sometimes brittle, once they are removed the are usually destroyed.
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As promised, here is a video. I've get the cooling system bled out now and I ran it out of the garage for the first time. It is idling around 600 rpm here and not as smooth as I'd like but I'm sure I'll get it figured out. It really stumbles on it's face just above idle. I'm getting fuel trim codes (P0173), I really haven't begun to troubleshoot yet so I have a long list of things to check. It could very well be the chinese injectors, a vacuum leak, or I might even have the fuel lines reversed but it is running, not leaking any fluids and I'm sure I'll be able to sort it out even if it requires some ECU work. It is probably something simple.
I appreciate the suggestion to reset adaptations and need to get INPA and cables.
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You have certainly not got the fuel lines reversed - the engine wouldn't run in the least.
You probably have a huge vacuum leak. Quite common for this to happen when rebuilding an engine - some hose connection forgotten somewhere. I would check the big one going from the icv to the intake manifold first. A simple smoke test using a ten bob kit made from youtube videos is surprisingly effective at checking stuff assuming the obvious places are good. Further the spray with the carb cleaner method to identify vacuum leaks is also very useful.
Another thing that happens when rebuilding and reinstalling engines is that connections get swopped. The air intake temp's connection gets plugged into something else. This is also common and can cause engine running issues. Pre cat - post cat o2 sensor plugs might also get mixed up (although not easy to do because of varied lengths.)
Another thing could be that you mixed up the ignition coil connectors.
That about sums up all the dumb things that I've experienced over the years lol
Please also unplug the maf and see if things improve. Please lift up the fuel rail and crank (with the coils unplugged) to inspect injector spray pattern and behaviour. These two tests alone take just 5 minutes to do.
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Hey just saw your video. Engine looks and sounds pretty good great work.
Everything seems to be correctly connected.
Oh Please check if you misconnected the tps and icv connectors. I did that once like years ago. Caused big problems. Its all coming back to me now lol
Could you post a video of the engine's stumbles at higher throttle? Hold the throttle cable down while shooting the video.
Off the top of my head, I would first check if your big hoses from the icv to the back of the intake manifold is connected correctly. Then lift up the rail and check injector firing. Then check all vacuum connections. Then confirm if the right connectors are on the right devices. If all that is fine, then you have a device fault. There's a 10 minute method to identify which driveability sensor is causing the issue. Just unplug each one by one, start the engine and throttle up. You have many sensors icv, maf, air temp sensor, engine coolant sensor , both o2 sensors. Unplug one by one testing only one at a time. As soon as the bad sensor is unplugged the engine will behave normally even when you throttle up.
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I'm pretty certain about all of the connectors, I labeled every one before I took them apart. The only thing I was unsure of was the fuel lines but I actually doubt it would make any difference unless maybe at very high load. I disconnected the MAF and saw no difference. I ran it briefly with the crank case ventilation hose off because my fuel pressure gauge hose needed to attach there, it saw 45 psi of fuel pressure at idle, of course it was running terribly with that hose off. I checked my compression and got 165-170 across the board. I replaced the array of vacuum lines and doubt any connections are bad because I did it on the engine stand where everything was easy to see. I should be messing with it now but I'm too lazy after running the kids around to halloween activities.
I had an excuse to use the lathe for the first time today. My fuel pressure gauge uses a little adapter to go from the schrader valve to another style connection which is hex shaped to put a wrench on. The shape interfered with the stamped steel that surrounds the valve. I was about to take a file to it when I realized I could just turn it down. I'll snap a picture next time I get motivated.
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Your rail pressure seems to be correct. And since you labelled everything you should be good there.
Did you check the hose from the icv to the back of the manifold ? Did you lift up the rail to check that all are firing?
If you did and that's good, then you need to complete the disconnect test to identify the bad sensor that is causing your car to run bad. If that doesn't work, you need to check resistances of all your coils, and then your spark plugs. Takes too long and is unlikely compared to a bad sensor.
The fuel lines can't be crossed because the regulator at the rail prevents backflow.
btw your idle seems too low...its just about 500. It should be at 650-700. It would be much easier to adjust the slack on your throttle cable to achieve this.
And oh yes, on your sensor disconnect test, include the throttle position sensor. Cheers mate.
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